Thread about hostage crisis in moscow

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USMC Sniper @ Oct. 25 2002,02:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Judging by this, I think it's safe to say that the US will get involved in helping Russia in Chechnya, but only if the hostages would get killed/hurt would this happen.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh no, US wouldn't risk that. It's too controversial - they might even risk another Mai Ling, so I realy dont think they would. Besides, Russia see the Chechnia conflict as an internal matter and therefore wants to deal with it by themselves.

[Mister Frag 0]

I wonder how much pressure there will be on the Russian government to try to bring this to a peaceful conclusion. Supposedly, there are citizens of numerous foreign countries being held.

By the way, the hostage takers have fired two RPGs at two women who tried to flee when medical personnel entered the building. One was seriously injured, the other escaped unharmed. These idiots have hundreds of hostages under their control, yet they insist on trying to kill two women who have already made it outside of the building.

[akm74 1]

The Washington sniper arested. I surprise CNN did't call him "freedom fighter". After all, he only kill 10 unarm civilians. Strange.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AKM74 @ Oct. 25 2002,03:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Washington sniper arested. I surprise CNN did't call him "freedom fighter". After all, he only kill 10 unarm civilians. Strange.<span id='postcolor'>

And that relates to the thread how?

Please keep spam/unrelated stuff/flaming/etc. out of this thread, this is about the hostage situation in Moscow, there is another thread about the sniper, use that one for sniper discussion please.

Thanks

[Balschoiw 0]

Here´s the situation:

The Chechnia rebels have excuted one lady last night. Reason unknown. Children left building and two doctors were allowed to enter building for medical aid. Food is not accepted by rebels. They say Russian people shall suffer same way chechnia people have to. They have separated the people by nationality and gender in several rooms to make a flashbang attack nearly impossible. The locations of hostages are not known completely.

The commando is assumed to be from Georgia. There is a rebel hideout in a valley in Georgia russian forces try to take over control for some time now. They are not able to. Guerilla tacs work very well in this valley. Rebel forces are upgrading their equipment as we speak. They have Strela and other portable AA and common Rus Army weapons.As you might know they brought down an Mi with 120 Rus troops onboard a month ago. The weapons are mostly bought from Rus Army members.

If you have not focussed the situation in Chechnia I suggest to do so. Rus Army presses country a lot. There are torturs , rapes, intentional kidkills by russian army. Not single cased. They use it intentionally. It works like this: Rus troops go to a village, break a house door, ask for 500 Rubels and if the family is not able to pay, they rape the women, flame the kid´s faces and take the male family head to their station or base to torture with electricity, rats, drugs, or the regular physical way. Rus troops have cut most of the supply ways , so food and other necessary live-goods are not provided to Chechnian population. Well´s are often poisened by throwing corpses into them.

There haven´t been much reports about the incidents that happen in Chechnia, cause TV teams and reporters are not welcome to report things like that and several have died in the area cause of "accidents". There is a strong interest from Putin to regain influence and control over the area, cause there is the major rus pipeline connecting oil-fields and blacksea shipping running through Chechnia. US already have started their built for the great US pipe through Asserbaidschan and so Rus need to come up with a stable connection to black sea also. UN security reports state that Putin is assumed to keep the crisis artificially up to have reasons to regain Chechnia. By now Rus have to pay money to Chechnia for transporting the oil through this region. If Chechnia would be regained there would be no more payments necessary. The Chechnian rebels have been participating in many hostage situations the last years.

- taken over a ship in turkey (no kills)

- taken over a plane ( 3 hijackers killed and several civillians)

- bomb attacks on local Rus installations

- bomb attack in Mosqua. (direct relation has not been proved)

- hostage situation now in Mosqua

The rebels are willing to die in Mosqua theater. They say

"It makes no difference for us to die here or in Chechnia cause of Russian surpression"

Mosqua authorities are assumed not to storm the theater as global media is present (one advantage of media at least) and the situation with over 800 hostages that have been spread over the building is almost impossible to handle. There is one wounded Alpha so far.

I am really curious how this turns out. I am afraid that it will end with a lot of dead´s. Current estimations from our military experts don´t look good. The rebels want to have negotiations. They want to have a journalist negotiating that is known for awarely reporting about Rus mistreatment and brutality in Chechnia. I forgot her name , but she lately released a book about the Chechnia - Rus problem. The book is only sold in Russian language so far, as there was no interest from west publishers. Maybe this will change now, as the problem is focussed. Putin will not like that.

OK before anyone starts to throw stones at me I have to say that I dont support any of the sides. This is just the piece of info I have collected from our official tickers.

[red oct 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Rus Army presses country a lot. There are torturs , rapes, intentional kidkills by russian army. Not single cased. They use it intentionally. It works like this: Rus troops go to a village, break a house door, ask for 500 Rubels and if the family is not able to pay, they rape the women, flame the kid´s faces and take the male family head to their station or base to torture with electricity, rats, drugs, or the regular physical way. Rus troops have cut most of the supply ways , so food and other necessary live-goods are not provided to Chechnian population. Well´s are often poisened by throwing corpses into them.

<span id='postcolor'>

if this hasn't been any reports about this kind of pratice by the russians than how do you know if its true or not? not that im saying that they haven't done any wrong, im sure they exacuted people by shooting them but how do we know this kinda abuse is really happening? if it is, and people know for fact that its true why haven't they gotten into trouble?

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Oct. 25 2002,03:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Here´s the situation:

The Chechnia rebels have excuted one lady last night. Reason unknown. Children left building and two doctors were allowed to enter building for medical aid. Food is not accepted by rebels. They say Russian people shall suffer same way chechnia people have to. They have separated the people by nationality and gender in several rooms to make a flashbang attack nearly impossible. The locations of hostages are not known completely.

The commando is assumed to be from Georgia. There is a rebel hideout in a valley in Georgia russian forces try to take over control for some time now. They are not able to. Guerilla tacs work very well in this valley. Rebel forces are upgrading their equipment as we speak. They have Strela and other portable AA and common Rus Army weapons.As you might know they brought down an Mi with 120 Rus troops onboard a month ago. The weapons are mostly bought from Rus Army members.

If you have not focussed the situation in Chechnia I suggest to do so. Rus Army presses country a lot. There are torturs , rapes, intentional kidkills by russian army. Not single cased. They use it intentionally. It works like this: Rus troops go to a village, break a house door, ask for 500 Rubels and if the family is not able to pay, they rape the women, flame the kid´s faces and take the male family head to their station or base to torture with electricity, rats, drugs, or the regular physical way. Rus troops have cut most of the supply ways , so food and other necessary live-goods are not provided to Chechnian population. Well´s are often poisened by throwing corpses into them.

There haven´t been much reports about the incidents that happen in Chechnia, cause TV teams and reporters are not welcome to report things like that and several have died in the area cause of "accidents". There is a strong interest from Putin to regain influence and control over the area, cause there is the major rus pipeline connecting oil-fields and blacksea shipping running through Chechnia. US already have started their built for the great US pipe through Asserbaidschan and so Rus need to come up with a stable connection to black sea also. UN security reports state that Putin is assumed to keep the crisis artificially up to have reasons to regain Chechnia. By now Rus have to pay money to Chechnia for transporting the oil through this region. If Chechnia would be regained there would be no more payments necessary. The Chechnian rebels have been participating in many hostage situations the last years.

- taken over a ship in turkey (no kills)

- taken over a plane ( 3 hijackers killed and several civillians)

- bomb attacks on local Rus installations

- bomb attack in Mosqua. (direct relation has not been proved)

- hostage situation now in Mosqua

The rebels are willing to die in Mosqua theater. They say

"It makes no difference for us to die here or in Chechnia cause of Russian surpression"

Mosqua authorities are assumed not to storm the theater as global media is present (one advantage of media at least) and the situation with over 800 hostages that have been spread over the building is almost impossible to handle. There is one wounded Alpha so far.

I am really curious how this turns out. I am afraid that it will end with a lot of dead´s. Current estimations from our military experts don´t look good. The rebels want to have negotiations. They want to have a journalist negotiating that is known for awarely reporting about Rus mistreatment and brutality in Chechnia. I forgot her name , but she lately released a book about the Chechnia - Rus problem. The book is only sold in Russian language so far, as there was no interest from west publishers. Maybe this will change now, as the problem is focussed. Putin will not like that.

OK before anyone starts to throw stones at me I have to say that I dont support any of the sides. This is just the piece of info I have collected from our official tickers.<span id='postcolor'>

Interesting reading - and objective/neutral too!

Are you russian by the way?

Because if you are I'd like to ask you what the general russian think about the war in chechnia. The reason for asking is I remember the organisation of russian mothers that had lost their sons in the war used to have demonstrations. And yesterday on the news there was a father of one of the hostages that cried out that Russia had to pull out of Chechnia because your contry have lost so many sons.

I sort of have a fealing that not all russians are backing up the idea of a continuing war.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Oct. 25 2002,03:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Rus Army presses country a lot. There are torturs , rapes, intentional kidkills by russian army. Not single cased. They use it intentionally. It works like this: Rus troops go to a village, break a house door, ask for 500 Rubels and if the family is not able to pay, they rape the women, flame the kid´s faces and take the male family head to their station or base to torture with electricity, rats, drugs, or the regular physical way. Rus troops have cut most of the supply ways , so food and other necessary live-goods are not provided to Chechnian population. Well´s are often poisened by throwing corpses into them.

<span id='postcolor'>

if this hasn't been any reports about this kind of pratice by the russians than how do you know if its true or not? not that im saying that they haven't done any wrong, im sure they exacuted people by shooting them but how do we know this kinda abuse is really happening? if it is, and people know for fact that its true why haven't they gotten into trouble?<span id='postcolor'>

There have been lots of reports about this by journalists smuggled in to Chechnia. Also, Amnesty International have made several reports concerning cruelty (on both sides).

Even a russian journalist reported about this. You might want to take a look at this:

http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/archive/rus/html/chechnya000211.html

or this:

http://www.ijnet.org/Archive/2001/2/23-8586.html

or this:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/chechnya000209.html

[Balschoiw 0]

No I am not russian. I have some Estonian and russian friends. 2 of them had been to Chechnia but are retired now. They have seen a lot.

I don´t know what the general oppinion in Russia is about the war, but I guess as in any war or conflict the people are not happy to send their sons to a country where they risk their life for reasons hard to explain.

EDIT: Just read the name of the female journalist that wrote the book and shall do negotiations for the rebels. Anna Politkovskaya

http://compassion.homestead.com/Chechnia.html

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3303/Inglese/rp16/Chechnia2.htm

http://www.elandnet.org/links/en/Asia/Chechnia/Human_rights/

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Oct. 25 2002,04:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No I am not russian. I have some Estonian and russian friends. 2 of them had been to Chechnia but are retired now. They have seen a lot.

I don´t know what the general oppinion in Russia is about the war, but I guess as in any war or conflict the people are not happy to send their sons to a country where they risk their life for reasons hard to explain.

EDIT: Just read the name of the female journalist that wrote the book and shall do negotiations for the rebels. Anna Politkovskaya<span id='postcolor'>

http://www.ijnet.org/Archive/2001/2/23-8586.html

[brgnorway 0]

Red October - here's more:

http://www.observer.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,525446,00.html

or this - it's even worse:

http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,680130,00.html

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Oct. 25 2002,02:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Oct. 25 2002,01:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 25 2002,01:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But we all have to admit something. With all this 9/11, Isreal, Afghanistan and Iraq discussion we totally forgot about the intensity of the war in chechnia. During the last months we had quite a lot international elections but THIS war was never part of the election-debates. So much about Iraq, so much about unessential topics but not a single word about the war. We seem to be faster accusing the americans than accusing the russians. Now I am saying this without polarising but war is war and needs equal attention<span id='postcolor'>

a bit late to say that isn't it ?<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe that's why they are taking hostages in the theatre. It certainly serves that purpose. It would be hard not to know about the current crisis - no matter where you are at the moment.<span id='postcolor'>

never said the contrary

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Oct. 25 2002,02:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree with fraggit. The only thing that they will achieve with this is to rally support for continued military operations in Chechnia.<span id='postcolor'>

they did the same in 1995 and got a ceas fire remember

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Oct. 25 2002,01:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N.o.R.S.u @ Oct. 25 2002,01:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In 1995, about 120 people were killed after rebels seized a hospital in the southern Russian town of Budennovsk. Elite Alpha anti-terrorist forces of the Federal Security Service (FSB -- formerly the KGB) failed to rescue the hostages.

The 250-strong Alpha force has been positioned outside the theatre during the present stand-off.   ----CNN----<span id='postcolor'>

I really doupt that they go in, there are so many peole from other countries. And the terrorists have suicide belts with them, so the attack would just lead into massacre .<span id='postcolor'>

They have to go in. They have killed hostages so there is no other choice. Unfortunately I imagine that explosives is the worst possible thing when it comes to hostage situations.

Also with that many hostages a storming of the building is going to result in dead civilians. This can only have a bad or a worse ending <span id='postcolor'>

CNN ... as always

it wasn't a town but an urban hospital , the hostage takers held 1500 people , 130 is the official death toll , but it appears that many more people died due to the russian CT and HRT methods , but that has been hidden by the interior ministery , and as said before , the interior ministery or any other entity with a few bits of power covered the numbers up to lower the death toll

[Tydium 0]

According to Reuters Britain is sending it's CT team to Moscow.

"Britain said it was sending a team of counter-terrorist experts to help secure the safe release of the hostages, and U.S. ambassador to Moscow Alexander Vershbow said Washington was ready to offer intelligence support."

Whole story

[zverushka 0]

Everyone hates the war in chechnya, but it is neccessary. If they retreat, chechn bandits are gonna make their way into Russia, like they did when they battacked dagestan.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (zverushka @ Oct. 25 2002,12:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Everyone hates the war in chechnya, but it is neccessary. If they retreat, chechn bandits are gonna make their way into Russia, like they did when they battacked dagestan.<span id='postcolor'>

?

Yes, they did atttack Dagestan, but Chechnia is hardly a threat to Russia. Do you really believe they want your Russia.

Typical folk models based on governmental propaganda.

[zverushka 0]

No, it's true.

The caucasian people are always the shady ones on the black market, or the criminals.

I lived in moscow for a long time I KNOW. I don't believe goverment propaganda, in fact, I was in moscow BEFORE chechnya was ever a real problem.

Point your finger at someone else.

[bn880 5]

Heh, Denoir and Ran... you know the Russians, their motto is !*!CHAARGE!*!

We'll see what happens, but this is not terrorist action, there is a WAR going on if I'm correct. What the heck do you expect. Look at how Jews take Arafat's compound hostage constantly. It's war, and from now on it looks like civilians are part of the war games. Hence the 'War on terror' ... = 'War with those who fight war by hurting civilians'

The enemy will go after civilians like this when they feel they can;t win any other way and are desperate... so there you have it.

EDIT: Or look at Hiroshima also.

[Sadico 1]

The situation can hardly be worse. If they don't storm the building, the terrorists are gonna start killing hostages this night, and if Spetsgruppa Alfa enters that building, all the terrorists, lots of hostages and possibily some Alfa operatives are gonna die, and that if the terrorists don't blow up the entire building

[akm74 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No I am not russian. I have some Estonian and russian friends. 2 of them had been to Chechnia but are retired now.<span id='postcolor'>

Estonian? Are you kidding? It sound like “ I have Mexican friend who give me all information about Japanâ€

Try to practice your brain guys. USSR has 15 republics before they broke apart. 14 of them now independent. No fighting, no blood. Three of them will become part of NATO this year. They all have good relation to Russia no matter what. But Chechnya. Why they can do it civilize way? They got their independent from 1996 to 1999.

Before they invade Russian region of Dagestan. They take 1000 villagers (also Muslims) hostages. Sound similar?

Many of you didn’t know (or just don’t want to) about bloody massacre in Chechnya in 1991.

10000+ peoples (including woman’s and orderly’s) was kill just because they was not Muslims. 100000 more leave Chechnya because they simply afraid for they lives. Not only Russians, but also all not Muslim populations.

Before you judge something try to learn subject more. Don’t rely only on media or BBC.

Now back to the guy who commands this operation in Moscow. His last name baraev. Sound similar? No? He is brother of another terrorist arbi baraev (killed in Chechnya not long time ago)

For UK guys. 4 UK engineers who was killed in Chechnya 4 years ago. (Baraev just throw they heads off and film it on tape for the relatives)

Just a note guys, just a note.

If you really want to back up Chechens in they war, please do so. Just make sure you have money for ransom and enough tall buildings left. Why?

Because US support Ben Laden when he fight Russian in Afghanistan. We also know now they looking for “old friend†to cut his ball off.

Be careful when you choosing side. Russians did dirty job in Chechnya. But someone has to do it. The more Chechen they kill in Chechnya, the less innocent civilian die in other places. Time to understand it guys.

[zverushka 0]

The reason that the Chechens fight is not because they love there country and want to get rid of the russian oppressors blahblahblah. Its because they have nothing else to do besides kill. There is no farming, no urban anything. NOITHING, All they do is kill each other, since ancient times. SInce before islam. When the russians left chechnya, it became a hellhole. Everybody started fighting amongst themselves. Then, they attacked dagestan.

[Bordoy 0]

i agree with what zverushka has said. Russia should end this war now by defeating them and not backing down in any way.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, it's true.

The caucasian people are always the shady ones on the black market, or the criminals.<span id='postcolor'>

Ethnic stereotypes based on not so sound nationalism. This reminds me of how many norwegians describe russian asylum seekers: Thieves, rapists, smugglers of drugs and generally controling the criminal underworld. Stereotypes are dangerous - they might even legitimize a war on terror in Chechnia.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Its because they have nothing else to do besides kill. There is no farming, no urban anything.<span id='postcolor'>

Do you ever wonder why? Try this: Russian soldiers burning crops and villages. If there is no land to farm - no crops to harvest - and there are criminal russian soldiers raping, killing, stealing - what are you supposed to do? And about the "no urban thing"? Just think about it, your armed forces has turned Grozny into a Chechenian Dresden.

[bn880 5]

Hmmm, what do you guys figure the chances of gas are in this situation?

I mean hook up some odor less, color less gas to the drainige or ventilation system that will immobilize everyone inside (perhaps slowly?). I think there are some gases to choose from....

well, anyway, I don't see many good forceful resolutions to this. Terrible situation.