Thread about hostage crisis in moscow

[brgnorway 0]

As we all know things got a little out of hand and thus the mods closed the thread. However, the topic is of great importance to many of us. I'm quite sure all of the forum members will behave properly if the Mods would be so kind to reopen it.

Please!

[Guest]

I agree that the topic is of great importance. I won't however reopen the old one. Use this one instead for the discussion.

A warning however: keep it civilized. No flaming, no racism etc. Post restrictions will be given to violators of the rule without any warning.

[Tovarish 0]

It's pointless, you'll see the same thing happen here that happened in the last thread. Either way, I've had enough of being disgusted by people defending the poor Chechens while this is still going on, so I'm staying away till it's concluded. Flaming each other over who's more righteous in this whole mess dosen't help those hostages any

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Oct. 25 2002,00:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's pointless, you'll see the same thing happen here that happened in the last thread. Either way, I've had enough of being disgusted by people defending the poor Chechens while this is still going on, so I'm staying away till it's concluded. Flaming each other over who's more righteous in this whole mess dosen't help those hostages any <span id='postcolor'>

It's not mandatory to participate in the debate. There is also no reason for us to behave like idiots as some of us did in the last thread. The forum members have proved that they can behave if they want to.The middle east thread proves that!

[ran 0]

the situation is being uglier and uglier , more time passes , bigger the bloodshed will be ... what afraid me the most is the fact that you can't make an operation of that scale without "colateral damages"

the Alphas already experienced it in 1995 in Budenovsk , it's a certitude that the death toll was way bigger than officially anounced , i'd say more than 500 victims instead of 130

dealing with an hostage situation that includes explosives and more than 5 heavily armed terrrorists is some kind of pre-programmed bloodshed , the hostages don't have any hope , especially when knowing the alpha's methods

the chechens don't have any volunty to get out of here alive , it's a suicide , all they want if to put the spotlight on their country and to get a cease fire like with budenovsk

the main difference with 1995 is that today a big part of the world's media is now focused on the theater drama (comical isn't it ?) , and the russian governemental forces have really important interests to keep the fuck ups at their minimums and to avoid the use of fragmentation grenades and antitank rocket launchers in the inside of the building ..... all we can do , i think , is to pray for all those people to avoid the terrorists' and the counter terrorists' bullets

that kind of situation really smells blood , it's already hard enough to deal with an hostage situation when there's no explosives , only one hostage taker and 5 hostages .. but there .... you got 700 innocent people rouped in a confined area inside a building guarded by 30 or more well decided suicidary terrorists with heavy weapons in their possesion waiting for the assault in a mined building ....

i wouldn't like at all to be in charge of the operation ......

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Oct. 25 2002,01<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the situation is being uglier and uglier , more time passes , bigger the bloodshed will be ... what afraid me the most is the fact that you can't make an operation of that scale without "colateral damages"

the Alphas already experienced it in 1995 in Budenovsk , it's a certitude that the death toll was way bigger than officially anounced , i'd say more than 500 victims instead of 130

dealing with an hostage situation that includes explosives and more than 5 heavily armed terrrorists is some kind of pre-programmed bloodshed , , all they want if to put the spotlight on their country and to get a cease fire like with budenovsk

the main difference with 1995 is that today a big part of the world's media is now focused on the theater drama (comical isn't it ?) , and the russian governemental forces have really important interests to keep the fuck ups at their minimums and to avoid the use of fragmentation grenades and antitank rocket launchers in the inside of the building ..... all we can do , i think , is to pray for all those people to avoid the terrorists' and the counter terrorists' bullets

that kind of situation really smells blood , it's already hard enough to deal with an hostage situation when there's no explosives , only one hostage taker and 5 hostages .. but there .... you got 700 innocent people rouped in a confined area inside a building guarded by 30 or more well decided suicidary terrorists with heavy weapons in their possesion waiting for the assault in a mined building ....

i wouldn't like at all to be in charge of the operation ......<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the hostages don't have any hope , especially when knowing the alpha's methods

<span id='postcolor'>

Could you explain why please?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the chechens don't have any volunty to get out of here alive , it's a suicide <span id='postcolor'>

There was an interview with a psychology professor on TV2 (norwegian channel). He said something interesting. A few years back (if I remember correctly) there was a similar hostage crisis in Istanbul involving chechenyans. The same professor took part in the negotiations with the seperatists and revealed a few interesting similarities with the current hostage crisis in Moscow. The incident in Istanbul ended fairly well.

In Istanbul as in Moscow now, the chechenyans were masked. He said that usually in these kinds of dramas that's a good sign because it indicates that the violaters believe there is a "way out" of the situation. He was also backed up by a norwegian correspondent whom refered to a higher placed russian official who had said on a TV channel "that the terrorists had prepared an exit by doing so". If the persons had disclosed their faces and thus their identity it would prove that they wanted to fight it "all the way".

However, the professor also said that there was an important difference concerning the situation in Istanbul. Back then they had NOT shot at a person escaping. The turkish police noticed that they pointed an automatic gun at this person, but they never shot. The professor said that this immediatly made the police believe the chechenyans wanted to negotiate. Unfortunately the opposite happened in Moscow wednesday when a hostage trying to escape was shot down.

[ran 0]

you never seen how the russian HRT's work have you ?

for the , the only way to set an hostage free is to kill the hostage taker as fast as possible and they tend to use radical means to get the result they want

believe it or not , but when an OMON observator came in my actual unit , he asked us where were the heavy weapons and when would we use them .... he was all astonished by our methods and training

those guys are real rambos , and as long as the paycheck follows and as long as they can use it , they don't give a fuck about their ork and just do it for the sake of it as some kind of amusement

negotiators are well known for their ... "affection" for the guys on the other side , we frankly don't give a fuck about what a negciator says as long as he can end the crisis or give us the results we want and we need to do our job correctly , the psychology is good in practic but most of the negociators don't have any talent for they jobs and the operations often end up in a firework

and afaik , the russians negociators aren't the best in the world

[ran 0]

and remember budenovsk ... it was a real bloodshed , but the russian interior ministery covered it up

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

But we all have to admit something. With all this 9/11, Isreal, Afghanistan and Iraq discussion we totally forgot about the intensity of the war in chechnia. During the last months we had quite a lot international elections but THIS war was never part of the election-debates. So much about Iraq, so much about unessential topics but not a single word about the war. We seem to be faster accusing the americans than accusing the russians. Now I am saying this without polarising but war is war and needs equal attention

[N.o.R.S.u 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In 1995, about 120 people were killed after rebels seized a hospital in the southern Russian town of Budennovsk. Elite Alpha anti-terrorist forces of the Federal Security Service (FSB -- formerly the KGB) failed to rescue the hostages.

The 250-strong Alpha force has been positioned outside the theatre during the present stand-off.   ----CNN----<span id='postcolor'>

I really doupt that they go in, there are so many peole from other countries. And the terrorists have suicide belts with them, so the attack would just lead into massacre .

There isn't much information from Chechnya, but some picture galleries and Amnesty reports do exist. Great Chechnya gallery: http://www.pbase.com/igor01/chechnya

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 25 2002,01:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But we all have to admit something. With all this 9/11, Isreal, Afghanistan and Iraq discussion we totally forgot about the intensity of the war in chechnia. During the last months we had quite a lot international elections but THIS war was never part of the election-debates. So much about Iraq, so much about unessential topics but not a single word about the war. We seem to be faster accusing the americans than accusing the russians. Now I am saying this without polarising but war is war and needs equal attention<span id='postcolor'>

a bit late to say that isn't it ?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N.o.R.S.u @ Oct. 25 2002,01:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In 1995, about 120 people were killed after rebels seized a hospital in the southern Russian town of Budennovsk. Elite Alpha anti-terrorist forces of the Federal Security Service (FSB -- formerly the KGB) failed to rescue the hostages.

The 250-strong Alpha force has been positioned outside the theatre during the present stand-off.   ----CNN----<span id='postcolor'>

I really doupt that they go in, there are so many peole from other countries. And the terrorists have suicide belts with them, so the attack would just lead into massacre .<span id='postcolor'>

They have to go in. They have killed hostages so there is no other choice. Unfortunately I imagine that explosives is the worst possible thing when it comes to hostage situations.

Also with that many hostages a storming of the building is going to result in dead civilians. This can only have a bad or a worse ending

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 25 2002,01:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But we all have to admit something. With all this 9/11, Isreal, Afghanistan and Iraq discussion we totally forgot about the intensity of the war in chechnia. During the last months we had quite a lot international elections but THIS war was never part of the election-debates. So much about Iraq, so much about unessential topics but not a single word about the war. We seem to be faster accusing the americans than accusing the russians. Now I am saying this without polarising but war is war and needs equal attention<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">With all this 9/11, Isreal, Afghanistan and Iraq discussion we totally forgot about the intensity of the war in chechnia.<span id='postcolor'>

I certainly agree with you on this albert. It's also a shame that the chechenya mess is labelled muslim extremism when it's all about a separatist movement. Oh, and this is of course not an excuse for the tragedy taking place in the theatre right now.

I also believe this will be an even more serious problem in the future. The focus on the war on terror only serves to simplify all ethnic conlficts around the world. If we lose the perspective on the various conflicts and fail to see that most of them are significant in their own way I believe it will be very hard to solve them in the future.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Oct. 25 2002,01:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 25 2002,01:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But we all have to admit something. With all this 9/11, Isreal, Afghanistan and Iraq discussion we totally forgot about the intensity of the war in chechnia. During the last months we had quite a lot international elections but THIS war was never part of the election-debates. So much about Iraq, so much about unessential topics but not a single word about the war. We seem to be faster accusing the americans than accusing the russians. Now I am saying this without polarising but war is war and needs equal attention<span id='postcolor'>

a bit late to say that isn't it ?<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe that's why they are taking hostages in the theatre. It certainly serves that purpose. It would be hard not to know about the current crisis - no matter where you are at the moment.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I remember a simillar incidence in Greece (if that is correct). The hostage takers didnt kill anyone though, they wanted to remind the world of chechnia. They surrendered and noone gut hurt.

[Warin 0]

What I think needs to be done in this situation is to totally take the politics/religion/conflict out and look at the black and white behind the situation.

Some folks have stormed a public place and taken innocent people hostage.

They are wrong, no matter what hteir reasons or their demands. Taking innocents hostage is unacceptable in a civilised world.

I know the world isnt a black and white place, but sometimes there are black and white issues in a situation.

But that's just my opinion.

I do agree that the resolution of this is going to be really really messy and there will be a lot of orphans/widowers/grieving parents and siblings of the hostages when this is all done.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

agree that the hostage-taking has no justification and there are other channels to make yourself hurt. But whatever end this will take, it definetly is a taste of what russia might have to face in the future.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 25 2002,02:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I remember a simillar incidence in Greece (if that is correct). The hostage takers didnt kill anyone though, they wanted to remind the world of chechnia. They surrendered and noone gut hurt.<span id='postcolor'>

That might just be the incident I was talking about - not Istanbul?

[fraggit 0]

Well after 9/11 you can't win anyone's hearts with violence and especially terrorism. These guys are asking for something, but unfortunately for them, they picked the worst time and method to do it. It's a lose-lose situtation for the terrorists.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (fraggit @ Oct. 25 2002,02:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">These guys are asking for something, but unfortunately for them, they picked the worst time and method to do it. It's a lose-lose situtation for the terrorists.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm not that sure it's a lose-lose situation. As you said: they are asking for something. Could they be asking for the world to be reminded there's a conflict going on in Chechnia?

If I'm not mistaken a lot of the chechnians in the theatre are women - perhaps widows and mothers of killed men. If so, they are perhaps prepared to die as long as they reach their goal. Could be you know!

[fraggit 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Oct. 24 2002,18:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (fraggit @ Oct. 25 2002,02:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">These guys are asking for something, but unfortunately for them, they picked the worst time and method to do it. It's a lose-lose situtation for the terrorists.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm not that sure it's a lose-lose situation. As you said: they are asking for something. Could they be asking for the world to be reminded there's a conflict going on in Chechnia?

If I'm not mistaken a lot of the chechnians in the theatre are women - perhaps widows and mothers of killed men. If so, they are perhaps prepared to die as long as they reach their goal. Could be you know!<span id='postcolor'>

Well, look at it this way. They (Russians) storm the building, all hostages are killed, Chechya is screwed, they (Hostage-takers) just screwed their whole purpose. They let the hostages go, they will be apprehended and who knows what happens then. Or I'm just being pessemistic and too simplistic. On the issue of the Chechen women in the theater, aren't they belted with bombs and armed?

[Guest]

I agree with fraggit. The only thing that they will achieve with this is to rally support for continued military operations in Chechnia.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Oct. 25 2002,02:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">it definetly is a taste of what russia might have to face in the future.<span id='postcolor'>

A social anthropologist called Feldman once wrote a book about political violence in Northern Ireland. An interesting fact was that when the violence got worse catholics and royalists tended to move to what they called safe segregated areas. What happend next was that they tried to hurt eachother as close to the center as possible in their respective safe areas.

The way they did it was to commit doorstep killings in the middle of catholic or protestant areas. The central areas between the two segregated areas actually became the safest place to live - and that area was initially the worst place to be.

I believe the chechenians now try to do somthing similar. Apart from placing the chechnian conflict on the agenda in the world politics, they also bring the war to russian soil.

And that is a lose-lose situation for both Russia and Chechnia!

[USMC Sniper 0]

Judging by this, I think it's safe to say that the US will get involved in helping Russia in Chechnya, but only if the hostages would get killed/hurt would this happen.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (fraggit @ Oct. 25 2002,02:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Oct. 24 2002,18:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (fraggit @ Oct. 25 2002,02:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">These guys are asking for something, but unfortunately for them, they picked the worst time and method to do it. It's a lose-lose situtation for the terrorists.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm not that sure it's a lose-lose situation. As you said: they are asking for something. Could they be asking for the world to be reminded there's a conflict going on in Chechnia?

If I'm not mistaken a lot of the chechnians in the theatre are women - perhaps widows and mothers of killed men. If so, they are perhaps prepared to die as long as they reach their goal. Could be you know!<span id='postcolor'>

Well, look at it this way. They (Russians) storm the building, all hostages are killed, Chechya is screwed, they (Hostage-takers) just screwed their whole purpose. They let the hostages go, they will be apprehended and who knows what happens then.  Or I'm just being pessemistic and too simplistic. On the issue of the Chechen women in the theater, aren't they belted with bombs and armed?<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, point taken. However, it could be that the chechnians in the theatre are reasoning that way. Some people fight no matter how it ends. And realy, it couldn't get much worse than it already is in Chechnia. The cruelty commited on both sides are so bad that it's almost unbeliavable. The conflict of Israel/Palestine is nothing compared to the cruelty in Chechnia.