Interface DLC

[kromka 40]

Hello.

Recently once again i crashed with the UI (i mean interactions with objects and command menu) of Arma 3. I know this is endless topic and dozens of players try to figure out why such advanced and great game has such useless interaction system.

Also why BIS which has so good contact with players doesn't here them in this case.

 

I think when nobody don't know whats going on, it is about money.

Despite many of us constatnly point UI as a one of the weakest side of A3, nothing happen. Reason may be this is a big change with a small profit (this is fully understandable for me).

 

However i had been enlightened! I will pay for DLC which improoves UI too something user friendly (i will call it "Interface DLC"). Just like for Marksman, Karts, Helis or future Tanoa.

This idea solves motivation problem, gives the community long waiting and very needed content. Additionally there is totally no need of planning, every ideas are on the Bugtracker (anyway i suppose that feedback from community will be so imense you (BIS) will stuck with cover it).

 

Is such DLC possible?

BR, old player

[semiconductor 309]

This idea solves motivation problem

This idea does not solve the motivation problem, it solves "how do we milk from community every cent possible" problem.

[kromka 40]

This idea does not solve the motivation problem, it solves "how do we milk from community every cent possible" problem.

 

Well, otherwise you will have the same poor UI in Arma 4, Arma 5 and so on.

We have proof in the form of current situation that simple requests are not enough.

[mamasan8 11]

And what tells you the solution will be any better?

I bet an UI mod by the community would have plenty more success. It has to be customizable. It has to be open to feedback.

 

A ROSE populated by your most used commands for example. 6-9 commands including some custom ones you can make yourself. Like "Pick up gun I'm pointing at and all the ammo for said gun nearby". I don't understand the point of having us pick up a gun and it only comes with the mag that is in it. Can you mention one single situation where you'd want that? Of coz you also want the ammo the enemy dropped. Too much Barbie-doll thinking there.

 

Opening doors and fences are another nuisance. Should be possible to do without having to point at the doorknob.

[pulstar 55]

 

Opening doors and fences are another nuisance. Should be possible to do without having to point at the doorknob.

Games with animated hands opening doors were made many years ago. Also with gradual opening and closing. Arma is indeed a game that is better than the sum of its (mostly functional, sometimes mediocre) parts.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

"I bet an UI mod by the community would have plenty more success. It has to be customizable. It has to be open to feedback."

"Games with animated hands opening doors were made many years ago. Also with gradual opening and closing. Arma is indeed a game that is better than the sum of its (mostly functional, sometimes mediocre) parts."

 

Arma 3 was probably meant to have better interaction at some point, but due to massive time constraints, company issues, so on, so fourth, they just ended up having to scrap so much. However, interaction systems, such as ones made by mods, the best ones heavily take imagination from the Take On Helicopters series, a BI Developed game. No interaction system would fit Arma better than the TKOH system, it's been proven to work well, especially with the action button mod, and so on. Of course, we're still stuck with the Scroll Menu. Why? BIS are still time constrained. They have limited personal as well. All development teams are working on something, most, on the Expansion, and even still, they admit they're short on dev's, especially for the modeling department, which had even hired some independent Modders from the community.

 

Now, there is hope, and possibility of overhauled Interaction, i still think the TKOH system sets the bars high in that regard. It could be customization, easy learning curve, and more immersive, being you can walk up to a door of a vehicle, and get in that seat, rather than being on the left hand side, and suddenly being teleported over to the right hand side seat. The only thing it needs, is time to implementation. I would say that they could hire the team who did TKOH to do it, but who knows. It's worth it, but i seriously don't think it should be a DLC. It's a feature, not content. It's something Arma has had for years, an old system, it just needs an update to newer standards, that TKOH had. (which by the way, classified as Arma 2.5 anyways.)

[kromka 40]

darksidesixofficial, i dont believe in even mid-term solutions if they wouldn't be based on money.

I realize it is business. Excuses there is a lack of people i treat as a bad management.

Additionally as I see much more important is fancy roof (Tanoa) than solid foundations (UI other than 15-yers old one).

Also i don't agree UI from community would be better. Is there any possibility to make such UI without sourcecodes?

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

darksidesixofficial, i dont believe in even mid-term solutions if they wouldn't be based on money.

I realize it is business. Excuses there is a lack of people i treat as a bad management.

Additionally as I see much more important is fancy roof (Tanoa) than solid foundations (UI other than 15-yers old one).

Also i don't agree UI from community would be better. Is there any possibility to make such UI without sourcecodes?

Even with the little knowledge i have about coding, and modding, i'm pretty sure it would have to have source codes. Don't quote me on that. =D

 

But i wouldn't dare call lack of manpower and time, "Excuses", it's more of a hard truth in terms of BI's Business limitations. They're not just working on Tanoa. despite almost zero buzz about DayZ, they're still working on that, and it's new Engine for the future of Bi's games. They've got the DayZ Team, Take On Mars team, Arma team, and Black Element secret studio, all working on something important. I'm almost certain Black Element and our beloved BI are working hard on not just Tanoa, but all aspects of the Expansion. They've said it before, they're already stretched thin, as well as bringing the #Eden Editor, which we will get a glimpse of. I can't call that an excuse. They're working hard already, and i expect to see what they have for us soon.

 

As far as the UI goes, once the Editor is finished, and the Expansion is nearing finish as well, i would expect them to be looking into UI and interaction improvements or... Overhaul, sorry. I agree, it needs work, but not now. I can live with the Scroll Menu for a while longer. If anything at all, i would hope they bring over an improved TKOH interaction come the release of the Expansion.

 

Oh, and BIS iterations of features like Sling Loading, FFV, Bipods, are all great overhauls and additions of Arma tech. A UI could be done perfectly given they had to time to do it, and i'm certain any modder's attempt, for example the Action Button's mod and others, are just as good to holding up near BI's improvements. BI's Interaction menu for TKOH was gold, by the way.

 

Here's an example of a modder who was going to port it over, later canceled i believe.

 

[Video]

[/video}

 

The Action Button mod takes a lot of inspiration from the whole prospect of the TKOH interaction, and for great reason. It works well, and not just on vehicles.

[R3vo 2654]

@OP, you should create a poll to ask how many players would actually be interested in an Interface DLC.

I personally like the idea. I've spent over 2000 hours with Arma 3 and I also understand how buisness works, but then again I also understand people who are against this, because for some player, especially new ones, it would suggest that BIS also milks its community.

However, they definitely will need money to support Arma 3 for a extended period after the Tanoa expansion and it would, in my opinion, also benefit Arma (4).

[en3x 209]

This guy nailed it pretty good

 

https://forums.bistudio.com/topic/158183-keys-enhanced-interaction-system/

 

The mod is old and unsupported but it had great videos about system.I don't think they

are up anymore although.

[kromka 40]

@darksidesixofficial

Vision of all of those additions is great hovewer i still can't stop wonder how it works BI can't at last shut my mouth and just do this overhaul. Of course i don't know situation in a bussines but for me there is hard to believe that there are no skilfull C programmers in Czech Republic.

Another employee needs more funds and because of this my proposition to pay for this packet of changes.

I think OFP/Arma is an important and great title, however in some areas i am just desperated. UI is only one of them.

Indeed TKOH interaction looks better (more accurate).

[chortles 263]

But i wouldn't dare call lack of manpower and time, "Excuses", it's more of a hard truth in terms of BI's Business limitations. They're not just working on Tanoa. despite almost zero buzz about DayZ, they're still working on that, and it's new Engine for the future of Bi's games.

Which hopefully results in the inclusion of this:

They've got the DayZ Team, Take On Mars team, Arma team, and Black Element secret studio, all working on something important. I'm almost certain Black Element and our beloved BI are working hard on not just Tanoa, but all aspects of the Expansion. They've said it before, they're already stretched thin, as well as bringing the #Eden Editor, which we will get a glimpse of. I can't call that an excuse. They're working hard already, and i expect to see what they have for us soon.

Unless Black Element Software is covertly doing something else, their work is no secret: their Web site publicly declared that they were primarily modeling/texturing for Arma 3/DayZ assets, which is no small part of where a bunch of the (eventually accurate) South Pacific speculation came from. Not sure what the Take On Mars team is up to WRT Arma 3, though they might be helping along the Enforce-Real Virtuality merge that is Enfusion... though I suspect that these days that may be one of the DayZ team's higher priority roles, which by Brian Hicks' own admission further complicated DayZ SA development. In that sense, ironically the Arma 3 team may have the easier time of things simply because they don't have a "confused mission".

Oh, and BIS iterations of features like Sling Loading, FFV, Bipods, are all great overhauls and additions of Arma tech. A UI could be done perfectly given they had to time to do it, and i'm certain any modder's attempt, for example the Action Button's mod and others, are just as good to holding up near BI's improvements. BI's Interaction menu for TKOH was gold, by the way.

One definite positive about Arma 3's implementations for sling-loading, FFV, and bipods is how much they don't (with the exception of turning in/out or raising/lowering a ramp) have to do with the action menu... unlike the VBS versions thereof. Truthbetold though the above video of TKOM interaction is my gold standard for what "Arma 4 interaction" should look like.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Which hopefully results in the inclusion of this:

Unless Black Element Software is covertly doing something else, their work is no secret: their Web site publicly declared that they were primarily modeling/texturing for Arma 3/DayZ assets, which is no small part of where a bunch of the (eventually accurate) South Pacific speculation came from. Not sure what the Take On Mars team is up to WRT Arma 3, though they might be helping along the Enforce-Real Virtuality merge that is Enfusion... though I suspect that these days that may be one of the DayZ team's higher priority roles, which by Brian Hicks' own admission further complicated DayZ SA development. In that sense, ironically the Arma 3 team may have the easier time of things simply because they don't have a "confused mission".

One definite positive about Arma 3's implementations for sling-loading, FFV, and bipods is how much they don't (with the exception of turning in/out or raising/lowering a ramp) have to do with the action menu... unlike the VBS versions thereof. Truthbetold though the above video of TKOM interaction is my gold standard for what "Arma 4 interaction" should look like.

Pretty much.

 

(By secret, i was refering to how BIS stated it was their secret department while disclosing they worked together... Thus, no longer being a secret... But... Idk, you get the point. =P)

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

@darksidesixofficial

Vision of all of those additions is great hovewer i still can't stop wonder how it works BI can't at last shut my mouth and just do this overhaul. Of course i don't know situation in a bussines but for me there is hard to believe that there are no skilfull C programmers in Czech Republic.

Another employee needs more funds and because of this my proposition to pay for this packet of changes.

I think OFP/Arma is an important and great title, however in some areas i am just desperated. UI is only one of them.

Indeed TKOH interaction looks better (more accurate).

It does not need to be a DLC though. Thing is, that's a feature. So the only way to get UI updates in a DLC is with a whole new package, and the UI improvement being a main feature of said package. However, we can also have a final vote on the matter, and BI is sure to pay attention. It's what was done with Sling Load, the AFM, Bipods, FFV, the community made that happen. Want a better UI? Lets all decide then, and pass it on the BI, and BI would probably take the challenge when they have the time to do it.  They'll get their money's worth when the South Pacific Expansion drops.

[kromka 40]

It does not need to be a DLC though. Thing is, that's a feature. So the only way to get UI updates in a DLC is with a whole new package, and the UI improvement being a main feature of said package. However, we can also have a final vote on the matter, and BI is sure to pay attention. It's what was done with Sling Load, the AFM, Bipods, FFV, the community made that happen. Want a better UI? Lets all decide then, and pass it on the BI, and BI would probably take the challenge when they have the time to do it.  They'll get their money's worth when the South Pacific Expansion drops.

For me form of those improvements had no matter. It can be DLC or zip file added to pack of chips or whatever.

I used "DLC" term as refer to all those more or less needed DLC's had been and will be released.

 

@OP, you should create a poll to ask how many players would actually be interested in an Interface DLC.

Result of such poll is easy to predict. If you will ask somebody if he would pay for something should be done long time ago he will definitely answer "no". However amount of "yes" should show Bohemia how players are desperated (like me).

[semiconductor 309]

Well, otherwise you will have the same poor UI in Arma 4, Arma 5 and so on.

There won't be Arma 5 if BI would not have money to make it. And BI would not have the money if Arma 4 would fail. And Arma 4 would fail if BI would not significantly improve it over Arma 3. The point is, they will have to do something if they want to sell their products and stay profitable.

 

On the side note, the famous VBS2 (3?) that costs a good deal of money to some very serious customers still have same clunky 15-years old interaction system in place. Maybe this system is so tied to the engine that it's almost impossible to rewrite it without rewriting half the engine?

 

I'm terrible at English tenses, I know, right?

 

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

 

On the side note, the famous VBS2 (3?) that costs a good deal of money to some very serious customers still have same clunky 15-years old interaction system in place. Maybe this system is so tied to the engine that it's almost impossible to rewrite it without rewriting half the engine?

 

No, that's not how it work at all. In fact, don't forget BI is the one who made the TKOH Interaction menu, given TKOH was literally using the Arma 2.5 Engine, one that was still fairly Arma 2, but had the new cloud tech and i suppose a few other things. None the less, if the UI was so hard coded at all, then the Take On Helicopters interaction menu would never exist.

[chortles 263]

On the side note, the famous VBS2 (3?) that costs a good deal of money to some very serious customers still have same clunky 15-years old interaction system in place. Maybe this system is so tied to the engine that it's almost impossible to rewrite it without rewriting half the engine?

You could say that about a bunch of Arma 2/3 systems, which presumably is why DnA and other devs have been so conservative about what changes would be done -- heightened risk of more widespread failure-to-game-mechanics-as-a-whole the deeper the changes go, and quite a bit of debate beforehand as to what's doable within a certain period of time (read: ability to meet deadlines, not milestones).

 

Hell, we can see some of that risk in DayZ (hence the joke about Arma 3 survival mods being "like DayZ except they actually work") which it should be added also took way longer to develop following the winter-of-2012 reboot than Arma 3 did due to their team having had to do so many of the rewrites (i.e. 'DayZ weapons are objects/entities, not Arma 3 weapons are shapes/strings', allowing gear durability, more customizability, and presumably bullet-the-chamber) to fit with their project leadership's priorities versus those of Arma 3's... although said rewrites are probably why the Real Virtuality end of the RV-Enforce merge that is Enfusion (Bohemia's future engine) stems from DayZ and not from Arma 3.

[joostsidy 685]

I understand the wish for better UI, but it's a stupid idea as a DLC for a company to even consider. Consider the outrage that wil burst with 'UI DLC'! BI would definitely make headlines, but not in a positive way.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

It simply wouldn't happen. You can't have a DLC that just changes the UI, it's impossible. Think about it, when the game is changed, everyone gets the changes to their clients whether purchased or not. Thus everyone would have the new interaction system and UI anyway, and you can't really restrict something like that. There's no way to balance something like that. It's literally impossible to make a DLC out of it.

 

Therefore, it would have to either be upgraded for free, or upgraded with the addition of something else, Via. Expansion, or actual "said other" DLC for example. Either way you cut it, it's quite literally forced to be a free feature for everyone. 

[R3vo 2654]

I understand the wish for better UI, but it's a stupid idea as a DLC for a company to even consider. Consider the outrage that wil burst with 'UI DLC'! BI would definitely make headlines, but not in a positive way.

There have been DLCs  with less content around(unfortunately) and magazines and news platforms are raging about everything anyway. However, I get your point.

[fabio_chavez 103]

There are rumours that some military games even feature, squad and loadout\kit management screens in their UI, but thats really just hearsay i never have encountered anything that sophisticated and usefull in my entire life, maybe someone dreamt about it and wrote it to the internet or something. Anyway it probably be a 3 gigabyte download and require the staff of star citizen an a year of development time plus r&d funding by darpa... Maybe we can start a kickstarter and fund it with some of our spare organs or sell our soul to the devil or something

[bad benson 1733]

lol. this was bound to happen to this thread :lol:

good effort though fabio.

 

i don't want to be that guy since i really appreciate the 3d editor effort and all. but it kind of baffles me that the UI is still basically the same at the same time. very strange priorities.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

There are rumours that some military games even feature, squad and loadout\kit management screens in their UI, but thats really just hearsay i never have encountered anything that sophisticated and usefull in my entire life, maybe someone dreamt about it and wrote it to the internet or something. Anyway it probably be a 3 gigabyte download and require the staff of star citizen an a year of development time plus r&d funding by darpa... Maybe we can start a kickstarter and fund it with some of our spare organs or sell our soul to the devil or something

Hahaha, that's a little extreme.

 

On a serious note though, lets put up a vote maybe, and vote on keeping the Scroll Menu, replacing it TKOH Interaction, or combining the best of both worlds.

[fabio_chavez 103]

Yea ok, but it probably cant be done because the action is, local but it has to be a global action and it has to be synced and that cant be done because the mousewheel movement is interconnected with headless client and really driving server fps and without people mousewheeling the doors open the server fps would drop and desync or something.