Greece navigating "uncharted territory"

[vilas 477]

Mateusz Szczurek and Jacek Rostowski.

and majority of people now would like to see them in prison after they gonna loose election, problem is other, they will end in some UK bank as "advisor" telling about new "fascist, homophobic, xenophobic" government after they will loose power,

[mistyronin 1181]

and of course it was hidden secret for EU commision, parliament, council ? it was uknown for those who signed documents about next next next loans to pay previous loans given to pay loans ?

It was known for everyone that had a history book. But some naively thought that if you allow Greece to join the EU, they will become like Germany... And as they met the requirements... (they didn't but the EU rulers didn't know).

when i said bank - i also had in mind EU central bank -it's management

Tho it's called a Bank, and it also lends money, it doesn't work as private banks. BTW The BCE has only about 2% of the Greek Debt.

The European Central Bank managers, the board, are appointed "from among persons of recognised standing and professional experience in monetary or banking matters by common accord of the governments of the Member States at the level of Heads of State or Government, on a recommendation from the Council, after it has consulted the European Parliament and the Governing Council of the ECB". So yeah, you indirectly voted them.

[vilas 477]

It was known for everyone that had a history book. But some naively thought that if you allow Greece to join the EU, they will become like Germany...

so now at least you should understand why i am against loosing sovereignty?

because i won't give handgun to child

i know child may hurt someone, you don't believe child could do it, you would give gun to child who already shot someone by mistake,

guys who rule EU bank without knowledge about Greece bankruptions in recent century, lol

it is like trusting that neo-nazis will respect minority rights, lol

basic thing in Eu is that we miss responsibility of politicians , we allow to keep immunity laws for them,

and our ministers often are usual politicians without proper education who were just political activist in party or celebrity which was popular in TV debates

Edited July 8, 2015 by vilas

[Pyronick 21]

so now at least you should understand why i am against loosing sovereignty?

because i won't give handgun to child

i know child may hurt someone, you don't believe child could do it, you would give gun to child who already shot someone by mistake,

guys who rule EU bank without knowledge about Greece bankruptions in recent century, lol

The thing is that in the end, to us it does not matter.

You see, the national government that you did or did not elect in Poland decided that money should be sent to Greece.

If you ask me, before the Euro was implemented there should have been a tax union. Without a single tax union, how can you control inflation?

Or alternatively, the Euro should complement existing national currencies pegged to the value of all currencies combined.

[mistyronin 1181]

so now at least you should understand why i am against loosing sovereignty?

It was obviously a bad decision, seen it in retrospective. But at that point, people really thought that Greece was clean and it would work. They were full of naivety, and thought only on the bright sight of the Union.

basic thing in Eu is that we miss responsibility of politicians , we allow to keep immunity laws for them,

Well, in fact the EU allows an additional level of justice, the European Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. Tho the local immunity laws are still valid, there you can settle issues that in the past would have been stopped in the national level by local corrupts.

and our ministers often are usual politicians without proper education who were just political activist in party or celebrity which was popular in TV debates

That depends on the country. But yeah, if people vote an uneducated guy to be a president or PM. And a President or PM designates an uneducated fool as minister, then yeah it can happen. But that's why people should vote wisely.

- - -

If you ask me, before the Euro was implemented there should have been a tax union. Without a single tax union, how can you control inflation?

That was a huge mistake. In part due to the countries reluctance of ceding certain sovereignty.

Also they should have eliminated all the local Central Banks, and keep only the ECB as ruler of the Eurozone.

Edited July 8, 2015 by MistyRonin

[vilas 477]

or we should remain Shengen-like Union

1 budget is stupid idea - because without equality you are accused of bad treating others, with equal treating you are accused of supporting lazy,

free trade zone, no borders for tourists is great idea, no customs zone is also great idea, technical standards are great (CE marking, ISO, IEC),

but rest is impossible to build without loosing sovereignty, and as far as i know life, not naive, than those who rule from left wing would first take care about rainbow flags on every corner not about economy,

if there would be United States of Europe every built, than from my not-naive perspective, i would see that still Greece would buy new tanks , 1 tank per 1 citizen, Spain would build 400 km/h trains to connect 2 small villages, Poles would live in poverty without pension dying on streets day after they lost job,

but for criticizing LGTB we would be sentenced for 20 years in prison, faminists would get Master of Science degree without graduating even primary school, newcomer from Africa would get house and previous owner would be evicted, and for killing in robbery bandit would get 1 month ticket for bodybuilding sport facility,

i would see rather such USofE than normal economy-focused future, where Pole earns like German, Pole works 35 h per week, and nepotism is penalized, and politician would earn only twice as usual person being controlled if he doesn't spend public money for his private goal,

i am not naive, i do not see US oE different than i prescribed, EU should focus ONLY on economy and technical standards , but it spreads to other issues, making people against it, we are not "Captain Sweden" 4chan meme ;)

Edited July 8, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

or we should remain Shengen-like Union

1 budget is stupid idea ,

free trade zone, no borders for tourists is great idea, no customs zone is also great idea, technical standards are great (CE marking, ISO, IEC),

Hahaha The EU it's not a McAuto where you can ask anything you want.

But as I told you a few times if you dislike so much the common policies, you only need to convince half of the Polish to get the country out of the Union :)

[Pyronick 21]

Hahaha The EU it's not a McAuto where you can ask anything you want.

But as I told you a few times if you dislike so much the common policies, you only need to convince half of the Polish to get the country out of the Union :)

I hope that the EU can at least finish building the internal market. There is still lots to be done: telecom (the 2017 roaming solution is only half the work), energy (this is probably going to stay like now for a while, until Russia stops pumping gas), defence industry (Nexter & Krauss-Maffei Wegmann fusion is a good step, especially with France privatising Nexter)

We are getting there. It is just the Euro (which wasn't even an EU project to start with!) that might f*ck things up. All other policy areas, with the notable exception of the outdated Common Agriculture Policy, are largely successful.

[gammadust 12]

Wha... someone is on fire, i leave the thread half a day and it grows like there is no tomorrow.

@MistyRonin

Re: Official Tsipras stance on reducing/cutting Greece's defence spending.

Thank you for the extra sources. No doubt domestically that has made many headlines, i have to wonder why there was so much reluctance in picking that piece of news in the international media.

Tsipras backtracking on commitments in previous Greece's proposals definitely look bad to his electorate. Knowing that NATO, IMF and his junior Coalition member blocked/is blocking such a defence expense reduction proposal, this becomes quite a bind! In any case, this brings me disappointment at Tsipras.

You, otoh: (if you bare with me a sec)

[table=width: 60%]

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[td]

Start by blaming the Greek Gov for bad spending while having ignored Siryza's efforts in Defence reduction

Why would it be hypocrisy?

The fact is that the Greek Gov choose to spend an insane amount of money in military stuff while it's country is practically in bankruptcy.

Proceed insulting Siryza based on that ignorance

It's incredibly stupid the position of the Greek Gov.

Don't worry, the Greek Gov has so much money that can afford expending a bit more than last year in military stuff.

(Business Insider) Greece's military budget is getting bigger even as the country's economy lurches towards mayhem

While defending the legitimacy of NATO countries exerting pressure on the Greek Governments against precisely what you expect of the latter

What are you talking about? What do the NATO countries have to do with Greece in this case? (...)

Of course Germany and the US as well as the rest of the countries of the World want to sell their weapons and even press Greece to buy them.

And it's you who is trying to blame the Greek Govs military expenditure on the other countries and companies that pressed them to purchase their gear due to their NATO ties. But that is BS. Because most of NATO members don't reach to the quota, and nothing happens.

Diminishing the relevance of NATO countries defence corporations' involvement in the corruption cases for which there has been German courts condemnation

If a German firm bribed Greek officials to get contracts in Greece, the main responsibly it's on the corrupted Greek officials who were supposed to not accept them.

Insisting on a common sense / ignorance based approach to how European Justice regards the degree of criminality and condemnation for the both the active and passive corruption types

In most legal systems, if an authority official accepts bribes, it's considered twice as serious as if it was a private company worker. For one side because it accepts a bribe, and on the other because it betrays it's own office / nation.

You keep forgetting again and again, that are the Greek Govs that promised to protect and do their best for the Greek nation. And they should had been the ones that fought against foreign pressures and external bribes, instead of accepting them.

While also failing active reading of the information i had provided you, but still daring categorical falsities by ignorance of it

The first thing Tspiras and Varoufakis should have done when they arrived in office is to cut drastically all non-necessary expenditures, like the military one. But they didn't. It hasn't been until now that they putted on the table

And before finaly recognizing that very ignorance in passing :eek:

Where BTW the Syriza Gov promised to reduce their military expenditure, not only in their electoral program 6 months ago, but a week ago in their offer to the EU.

Depict as "lying" what you already knew consisted in a backtracking instead, that of Tsipras ultimately failing so that he could comply with the IMF imposition.

So yes. Tsipras once more lied about reducing military expenditure.

Concluding in opposite of what you had found out (given your own emphasis)

(Web of the Prime Minister of Greece, in Greek) Statement of Prime Minister A. Tsipras at the Ministry of Defense

The state, despite the difficulties that will overcome with faith in our goal and with unity, it will not delete its obligations to the senior members of the Armed Forces. As everything in our hand, and I personally and the Minister of Defence is not going to accept cuts, reductions are designed to create new inequalities within the society and particularly reductions in remuneration of staff of the Armed Forces.

Baselessly accuse of corruption Siryza which so far made all the attempts to achieve what you rightly expect of them, only failing because of NATO/IMF factors which you chose to legitimate.

Which BTW shows clearly what Tsipras Gov priorities are, to remain being another corrupt Gov that exploits the Greek Population giving the money to certain corrupted groups like the Army.

Still have the gall to suggest

Is the Greek Gov gonna present a detailed plan to save the situation, or leave their own population to starve?

---

I am now sure it is not only the logic you present us with that is distorted. I am sorry i bothered you.

[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

[mistyronin 1181]

Gammadust tho I appreciate the time you dedicate on tracking my posts and analyzing them, even if you did with a faulty logic mixing the press articles that I pasted with my remarks, my statements on past govs mixed with the current gov, etc. And tailoring as you wished to fit your "pattern".

At least I'm glad that you realized even a bit of how Tsipras and Syriza are. It's a first step :)

They are just another corrupted Greek Gov with a suitcase full of empty promises that care more about keeping the corruption nets than in assisting their people, but yeah they said a lot of beautiful things.

Note: Tho for someone who is so interested in Greek Politics, I find interesting (no disrespect intended) that you still haven't been able to write properly the name of the Syriza party (you can use as a hint that the y goes in the first syllable like in Syria).

[gammadust 12]

@MistyRonin

It is merely the cronological sequence of your comments, the only exception, explicitely stated so, reveals how much incongruent you proceed in the discussions (you should be proud, we have about three and counting).

My supposed faulty logic, "pattern" tailoring, who knows even, extractions out-context, will be up to any bored someone to evaluate, since everything is properly linked, and quoted. Contrary to you, i prefer substantiation at the expense of verbosity, it is a known cost. Shortcuts lead to misunderstandings. And you may correctly assume this is my concern when faced with ignorance/myth based opinions, one learns quite a lot by doing it. Notice it might also benefit you, if you actually envision a carreer/serious hobby in manipulation, knowing where might still get improvements and such. We get to know each other better, don't we?

Regarding Syriza* my honest opinion is that they have proved to employ naivety, even since their elections win back in January, and they should have prepared the Greeks better for an EMU exit, the most likely since the begining at the least. But since they arrived where they arrived, i actually think making this Troika face the realities how they are, being joined by many qualified persons to the effect, makes their ongoing effort worthy. It is not only europe's peoples that are awaking, the distant institutions are too!

*Ohhh my orthographic dyslexia... still prefer orthographic than substantive type.

[mistyronin 1181]

@gammadust Hah I like your style, it remembers me a lot of how I was when in high school. Tho I'm afraid that anyone that checks your chronology will easily notice how your inductive reasoning is faulted, your mistakes and confusions there are pretty obvious (I won't go through them because it would be a waste of time).

As a friendly advice, I think you have a strong inclination to prejudge opinions, taking things for granted missing most of the facts. You focus yourself in the things you can see, which makes you miss a lot of the big pictures. But in any case, good for you :)

- - -

(BBC) Greece debt crisis: Banks stay shut as endgame looms

The Greek government has extended bank closures and a €60 (£43; $66) daily limit on ATM withdrawals until Monday.

The curbs were imposed on 28 June, after a deadlock in bailout talks with creditors led a rush of withdrawals.

The European Central Bank has decided not to increase support for Greek banks until the debt crisis is resolved.

Greek PM Alexis Tsipras says he will submit "credible" reform plans on Thursday - ahead of a Sunday deadline by the

EU to find a solution.

An emergency summit will involve all 28 EU members - not just the 19 eurozone countries.

European Council President Donald Tusk has warned that this was now the "most critical moment in the history of the eurozone".

"The final deadline ends this week," he said after emergency talks of the eurozone leaders in Brussels on Tuesday.

Greece is desperate for a third bailout to avoid bankruptcy and possibly crashing out of the euro currency.

Edited July 9, 2015 by MistyRonin

[gammadust 12]

What have i done?

@All (including MistyRonin)

I owe apologies to everyone. When i created this thread my objective was to enable a more topical space for us to discuss the ever important Greek issue. I have a strong feelling my last two posts killed that discussion. Quite self-defeating. Just when i was congratulating the thread for its heating up FPDR.

It should not matter if some opinions struck some sensitive strings of mine, there is a limit to too personal engagements in a public forum. Some arrogance in me prevented me from taking it to PM, i apologise everyone and specially MistyRonin for that. I'm committed not allowing that happen again.

Please, let's resume normal discussion. Now we are indeed in an expectations period, but news should be coming soon.

[vilas 477]

http://www.money.pl/gospodarka/unia-europejska/wiadomosci/artykul/kryzys-w-grecji-ateny-domagaja-sie-53-5-mld,193,0,1854401.html

"i told you so"

Greece played their "tragedy act" to get more money by playing drama like in theater,

Greece asked for .. 53 bilions of Euro AGAIN

yesterday at night Greek gov promissed to make reforms but first they need to get another 53 bilions of €

if Greece will get this 53 bilions € than it will be ridiculous EU commision/parliament/bank/whole EU stupidity and EU will lost any credibility by giving Greece one cent more after what they wasted on tanks, administration, benefits etc.

checking data about retired age shows that in Greece and Italy people have lowest retired age,

difference between Greece, Italy and my country at retired age is almost decade

Edited July 10, 2015 by vilas

[vilas 477]

according to press Greece wants 53 bilion more as said PLUS another 35 bilions "for restructurization", lol , so it is 88 bilions € that they want now

[mistyronin 1181]

(Washington Post) In Greece, defiance dissipates into capitulation

Thousands of people flooded the square outside Parliament, draping themselves in blue-and-white flags to celebrate the country’s sweeping rejection of the tough austerity measures demanded by its European creditors, which Greece’s fiery young leader had likened to “blackmail.â€

But by Friday, the euphoria had faded as Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras’s vows to stand up to Europe caved to the harsh realization that the birthplace of democracy stood just 48 hours away from financial ruin — and Greeks were poised to swallow what amounted to the same dose of austerity they had refused in a vote Sunday.

Each one of us shall be confronted with his stature and his history. Between a bad choice and a catastrophic one, we are forced to opt for the first one,†Tsipras said in a speech before his party’s lawmakers, according to local media. “It is as if one asks you for your money or your life.â€

In the wee hours of Saturday morning, the Greek Parliament backed a last-ditch plea to creditors for more than 50 billion euros in emergency funding that could carry the country through the next three years.

In return for a bailout, Tsipras offered to undertake a massive restructuring of the national budget that has eluded his predecessors but that analysts say may be unavoidable if Greece is to stabilize its foundering economy. The package of spending cuts and tax increases is estimated to total 12 billion to 13 billion euros — even more than previous Greek proposals had offered. It includes abolishing key tax breaks for islands that are popular tourist destinations, phasing out a subsidy for poor pensioners and privatizing sprawling state industries.

[mistyronin 1181]

(Al Jazeera) Merkel says trust is lost at last-ditch Greece talks

Euro zone leaders have told near-bankrupt Greece at an emergency summit that it must restore trust by enacting key reforms before they will open talks on a new financial rescue to keep it in the European currency area.

Leftist Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras will be required to push legislation through parliament from Monday to convince his 18 partners in the monetary union to release immediate funds to avert a Greek state bankruptcy and start negotiations on a third bailout programme.

Some laws will have to be passed by Wednesday and the entire package endorsed by parliament before talks can start, one minister said.

Several hardline countries voiced support for a German government paper that recommended Greece take a five-year "time-out" from the euro unless it accepted and implemented swiftly much tougher conditions, notably by locking state assets to be privatised in an independent trust to pay down debt.

But French President Francois Hollande, Greece's strongest ally in the euro zone, dismissed the notion, saying it would start a dangerous unravelling of EU integration.

"There is no such thing as temporary Grexit, there is only a Grexit or no Grexit. There is Greece in the euro zone or Greece not in the euro zone. But in that case it's Europe that retreats and no longer progresses and I don't want that," he said.

[vilas 477]

http://www.money.pl/gospodarka/unia-europejska/wiadomosci/artykul/jest-porozumienie-na-euroszczycie-oddala-sie,213,0,1856981.html

damn... "Europe is ready to talk about more help to Greece" which means - they will get more money

in Thursday night Greece wanted another 53 + 35 bilions €

[drebin052 324]

http://www.money.pl/gospodarka/unia-europejska/wiadomosci/artykul/jest-porozumienie-na-euroszczycie-oddala-sie,213,0,1856981.html

So who's up for Grexit Crisis Round 2 in 2018? :D

Why on earth Merkel & co. would agree to this is beyond me at this point...

[vilas 477]

i wonder if in 2018 someone would say "we were naive, how could we know, they cheated us, we need give more powers to EU commision"

Why on earth Merkel & co. would agree to this is beyond me at this point...

because next could be Spain, because my country also shouldn't even aim to be in €-zone , because in bigger crisis they can ask for member countries to resign from sovereignty, because in such debts some banksters make huuuuuuuuuuuuge money, because 1000 clerks in Brussels found job to "care" about Greece, maybe someone has percent from EU money laundry in Greece, because European political correcntess thinking says that it is good to pay for people who do not want to work like us and we simply should work harder so someone can have a rest etc. maybe € is like financial pyramide and when Greece would leave something other would break,

because maybe referendum was to make drama and in this drama to get more money instead of pay debt

they keep € at all costs even dumping it cause € is aim of NWO to create U S of E it seems and destroy what is called nation, state, soveirgnity, create one common state ruled by Germany, UK, maybe little France ,

btw, feeling sorry for Greeks - they voted , their politician who came to power with promises to not pay, now agrees to pay,

so guy promised A, made referendum in which people voted A, now man does B, his party members are told to starting little bounty against him,

because it is indeed horrible what politicians do , they promise A, they ask referendum and get A, than they do B, it matters that people vote but politicians do opposite, like our politicians here

Edited July 13, 2015 by vilas

[gammadust 12]

Euro Summit Diktat, 12 July 2015 for our reading pleasure.

[vilas 477]

our right-wing press says about "demand to start privatization program" for Greece , so foreign corporations can buy Greek energy plants and infrastructure like in Poland and more other privatizations of what belongs to Greek state, so some serious NWO players want to buy what is Greek property like they bought my country :/

[Tonci87 163]

It is absolutelly disgusting what both their own and the european politicians are doing to the greek people. Now they will privatize everything, including infrastructure and water supply. What this means is that many things will become MUCH more expensive for the citizens, especially public transport, waste management and water/energy supply. Factories/shipyards will close down because they will be bought by the competition and then dismanteled.

Considering that this is Greece, most things will be sold for absurdly low prices with the politicians responsible for the sales walking away with bags of cash or jobs in the companies that were able to buy cheap.

Actually I'm quite surprised the Greeks didn't burn down the parliament already

[vilas 477]

It is absolutelly disgusting what both their own and the european politicians are doing to the greek people. Now they will privatize everything, including infrastructure and water supply. What this means is that many things will become MUCH more expensive for the citizens, especially public transport, waste management and water/energy supply. Factories/shipyards will close down because they will be bought by the competition and then dismanteled.

Considering that this is Greece, most things will be sold for absurdly low prices with the politicians responsible for the sales walking away with bags of cash or jobs in the companies that were able to buy cheap.

and it is made by politicians who were voted using banners against it and who made referendum about it, Greece will see what Poland saw in 1990s

so it will be bad for them indeed, simply few rich guys want it and it shows EU also has oligarchy, just hidden, in Ukraine this oligarchy is well known, seems EU has similar but hidden, and EU oligarchy is probably few German/UK/French corporations ,

in my country such privatization cause serious prices rise, privatisation of main telecomunication companies led to situation in which i paid for 1 MB internet few years ago more than you pay for 60 MB,

and for electricity

się, że Polak zarabiający w 2013 roku przeciętną pensję wyliczaną według GUS (872 euro), mógł za nią kupić 5.891 kW/h prądu. Niemiec za swoją przeciętną pensję (3.449 euro) był w stanie kupić już 11.811 kW/h prądu, zaś Brytyjczyk za swoją przeciętną pensję (2.571 euro) był w stanie kupić aż 14.775 kW/h prądu. source : http://niewygodne.info.pl/artykul4/01704-Porownanie-cen-pradu-w-Polsce-Niemczech-i-Wlk-Bryt.htm 2013 prices

Pole from his salary can buy 5890 kWh

you 11800 kWh for your salary

Brit 14770 kWh for his salary

water supply ?

i heard in some EU countries people have water for free - i do not know if it is true

in case of shipyard - we know it the best , EU comission told to close our shipyard and money from EU budget donated to German shipyard - German workers have job, our were unemployed, because EU comision told so,

in case of donating industry it is very thin line to call some things "colony-like" because sometimes German or French producers, plans, shipyards get from taxes donation which keeps them, while there is order to close company in other country - not equal treating

the same with farmers payments

Greece had lots of things kept by state, owned by state - in case of privatization they will see what i know from my teen-age

------

anyway - the worst for usual people is that they vote for something and politician do whatever he wants, thats why i believe politicians must fear of us, otherwise they use us like we were not human beings with needs

Edited July 13, 2015 by vilas

[oxmox 73]

Greeks Michael Moore - low budget production in Greece a cult film

"Catastroika" denounces the planned privatizations - with drastic images

Die Zeit google transl.

Catastroika - Documentary about the Privatization Programm in Greece

The documentary uncovers the forthcoming results of the current sell-off of the Greek public assets, demanded in order to face the country’s enormous sovereign debt.

Turning to the examples of London, Paris, Berlin, Moscow and Rome, Catastroika predicts what will happen, if the model imposed in these areas is imported in a country under international financial tutelage.

Academics and specialists like Dani Rodrik, Alex Callinicos, Ben Fine, Costas Douzinas, Dean Baker and Aditya Chakrabortty present unknown aspects of the privatization programs in Greece and abroad.

Catastroika - with option for multilingual subtitles

Edited July 13, 2015 by oxmox