World Politics General

[vilas 477]

But obviously a lot of people just don't care enough about politics.

and many times they vote for more handsome one - which is visible even in psychological researches,

across globe without pointing countries

[srbknight 925]

No one talked about flying near the airspace. At all times I used the words "over their airspace". Read better.

mmm... however

Ok, so you are against the Russian invasion of Crimea. Nice.

Not of course !! :D Just the way how the legal president was moved from government (old good doctrine)

What people? And how do you know that it was supported? If there was no legal vote?

I guess there would be mass protests in Crimea or Russia if it's not legal !!! :D

So more than 150 countries in the World conform the West?

No some of them are forced to be with west with pro-western governments or bad things like in middle east could happened here example Serbian government actual was promising neutral or equal diplomacy with Russia and West now that's strange thing President is for Russia and Prime minister is for West catastrophic

or Macedonia the president Gruevskiy decide to sign agreement with Gazprom for turkish Stream that will be build by Russia and the unrest comes from nowhere that was been minus for his government from west after he decide to cancel sign agreement the protests are disappeared !

[Tonci87 163]

The best solution to that, is to try to educate the people the best you can. So a lot of votes will be emitted by educated people.

But obviously a lot of people just don't care enough about politics.

Wich is mostly due to the fact that people are dissapointed by politics. No matter what you vote for in the end you are going to be served the same pile of shit with a different colouring because Lobby groups influence all parties. Frequent referendums, like in Switzerland, are the best way to keep people interested in politics and to take away power from Lobby groups.

[oxmox 73]

We have a thread about Russia, the US and Europe. Didnt want to open a world politics thread where you read pages about Russia again :confused: ;) hehe

[srbknight 925]

Wich is mostly due to the fact that people are dissapointed by politics. No matter what you vote for in the end you are going to be served the same pile of shit with a different colouring because Lobby groups influence all parties. Frequent referendums, like in Switzerland, are the best way to keep people interested in politics and to take away power from Lobby groups.

Good thing but US will not support that is too much freedom for Bilderberg group !!!

---------- Post added at 12:37 ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 ----------

We have a thread about Russia, the US and Europe. Didnt want to open a world politics thread where you read pages about Russia again :confused: ;) hehe

Russia will always be an pain for everyone that is not look like Russians :D

[vilas 477]

Wich is mostly due to the fact that people are dissapointed by politics. No matter what you vote for in the end you are going to be served the same pile of shit with a different colouring because Lobby groups influence all parties. Frequent referendums, like in Switzerland, are the best way to keep people interested in politics and to take away power from Lobby groups.

indeed , in case of my country circa 30-50% votes,

which means 50-70% do not vote at all (different number of voters in different elections)

this is the reason

politician say before election "we cannot allow A, we must do B"

he is elected, he gets salary and says "A is must do, B is idiotic idea, we cannot allow B to happen"

if politicians would be doing what they are voted for , than political scene in some countries would look different

problem is that politican promises ANYTHING to get to parliment where he realizes will of ... corporations which gave him bribe

[Tonci87 163]

Good thing but US will not support that is too much freedom for Bilderberg group !!!

---------- Post added at 12:37 ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 ----------

Russia will always be an pain for everyone that is not look like Russians :D

Are you implying that Russians are racist?

@Vilas, it can be even worse than that. Here in Germany politicians say A and that B will never happen with them in power, only three months later A is suddenly a stupid idea and it has to be B. Merkel is changing her position on everything so often it has become ridiculous.

[mistyronin 1181]

Wich is mostly due to the fact that people are dissapointed by politics. No matter what you vote for in the end you are going to be served the same pile of shit with a different colouring because Lobby groups influence all parties. Frequent referendums, like in Switzerland, are the best way to keep people interested in politics and to take away power from Lobby groups.

Before the 2008 crisis in most of Western Europe people didn't cared about politics, because everything was working.

[srbknight 925]

Are you implying that Russians are racist?

Comedy man you should work in hollywood ! :D

[vilas 477]

Are you implying that Russians are racist?

@Vilas, it can be even worse than that. Here in Germany politicians say A and that B will never happen with them in power, only three months later A is suddenly a stupid idea and it has to be B. Merkel is changing her position on everything so often it has become ridiculous.

the same probably is in many countries

current gov of my country was voted (not by me of course, neither by Sudayev) on following promises:

- cut down taxes, in time they rule taxes became bigger for few percent, a lot of new taxes appeared,

- sustaining tradition and soverignity in EU for my country - they voted anything which was cutting it,

- create new jobs on market , unemployment raised for 50%,

- bring back emigrants who left families , emigration raised even more,

- keep order in legal system - their first step was ... forbiding to register court proceeding, than it was worse

- making tax system easy - they created a lot of new legal tricks in tax system,

- education system better - they start cutting funds for education and in small vilages schols were deleted, than they start increasing costs of it with proposals to cut education budget,

- stronger state - they made state less acting in many branches,

- better safety and stronger law - they made a lot of depenalizations from system,

- stronger army - they made cuts to budget of army and disalowed to form national guards system,

not want to point all

but in my country pre-election promisses were against what was done later,

if you would look at promises before election in my country you would see neo conservative or far right state, but when you look at law they push , you will see left wing regulations ,

so people vote on right wing proposals (rhetoric) and get left wing result,

people vote for social program, socialism, get lack of benefits system,

people vote for person calling to build harsh law for criminals, and next month this person in parliament sets project of law that decreases jail from 5 to 2 years for something, while day before voting he said he want to raise it to 10 years,

and you know what is most ironic - wikipedia calls that party right wing, conservative, lol,

because they use other slogans than they push button for,

formally according to wikipedia current gov here is right wing, lol,

deology Liberal conservatism

Christian democracy

Liberalism

Pro-Europeanism[1]

Political position Centre-right[2][3][4][5]

those consevatists propos LGTB marriage and those liberals just raise taxes and those Christians propose things which Catholics deny etc. etc. etc.

no matter if you like left wing, right wing, etc.

if you vote - they should obey

if you order from ebay Canon 7D, they cannot send you Fujifilm S1000

because you paid for Canon 7D, you ordered Canon 7D and you demand Canon 7D and you do not want Fuji S1000 or Benq C1450

they deliver you different camera and Misty says "but you bought this camera so why you moan"

Edited June 28, 2015 by vilas

[holoween 10]

vilas if you consider these parties to be left wing and others consider them rightwing maybe youre just far more right than most others.

also if you dont like what the current parties are doing just start one yourself. the nice thing about democraties is that nothing stopps you from doing so

[Rydygier 1317]

The best solution to that, is to try to educate the people the best you can. So a lot of votes will be emitted by educated people.

But obviously a lot of people just don't care enough about politics.

At least in Poland many people genuinely has no time/mind power to interest politics enough to make a fully informed decision during elections - too consumed by work/ensuring basic livelihood for the family.

I wonder, there was times, where citizenship, thus right to vote was a privilege given to those, who proved their readiness to carry responsibility for the state, eg via military service. It was ancient times of course, also one could be worried about some neo-nobility class arising, still adapted somehow to the weighting system... But true, at least yet we have no reliable enough methodology to make right vote weight. Of course such vote can't be anynomous anymore.

[vilas 477]

vilas if you consider these parties to be left wing and others consider them rightwing

look:

BEFORE VOTING:

- cut down taxes

- higher penalty in law

- less taxes

- less clerks

- no changes in culture and traditions

AFTER VOTING:

- raise taxes

- lower penalty

- more taxes

- hired twice more bureaucrats and clerks

- proposals to set LGTB marriages, make gender in law, finance transsex surgery,

before voting : typical right wing conservative program

after voting: typical left wing program

you fail to see it ?

do you see difference between what WAS promissed and what WAS done ?

what is left wing politics, what is right wing typical ?

i can compare program of party from 2011 with what is in law in 2015

Edited June 28, 2015 by vilas

[holoween 10]

look:

BEFORE VOTING:

- cut down taxes

- higher penalty in law

- less taxes

- less clerks

AFTER VOTING:

- raise taxes

- lower penalty

- more taxes

- hired twice more bureaucrats and clerks

before voting : typical right wing conservative program

after voting: typical left wing program

you fail to see it ?

yea so if you create a party that actually does what it promises you would expect it to get more votes rather than one that doesnt do what it said.

[mistyronin 1181]

do you see difference between what WAS promissed and what WAS done ?

what is left wing politics, what is right wing typical ?

Are you aware that liberalism is also center-right wing, right?

Liberalism defends all freedoms, like the sexuality (LGTB marriages, etc.)

[vilas 477]

I was reffering to making opposite to what was promissed in short points when we say about democracy globally

one cannot call democracy when people vote FOR A and get A forbidden , people vote against B and get B enforced,

because it is not democracy if you vote for one idea, and as result other idea is being set as law and you have to wait 4-5 years to get rid of those who cheated you paying sometimes unfixible cost

often referendums would be the best system

Edited June 28, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

often referendums would be the best system

I agree with you. I think that we should take advantage of the Internet like in Switzerland. People have the right to decide about the matters that affect them the most.

One thing that it's really interesting for me, it's the direct participation in the US: they use open lists, they even vote for the county's sheriff.

The thing is that in supra-national entities like the EU, it's hard to decide what affects the Union and what affects the countries. In the U.S.A it's more clear what affects the states and what the Federation.

[vilas 477]

: they use open lists, they even vote for the county's sheriff.

it is better than what we have,

if they can choose local police chief

The thing is that in supra-national entities like the EU, it's hard to decide what affects the Union and what affects the countries.

especially when before election politician claims that he goes to EU parliament to fight for more soverignity and protect local business and ends voting against it when he get 23 000 Euro per month

refferendum is most honest because in democracy we should fight for one thing

WE ARE THE BOSS

cause we pay taxes and politician is our employee

not opposite that we vote (for example, it is just example) for harsh law and bigger sentences , and after election this politician propose new law which decreases sentences, and when people protest , this politician orders riot police to batton people calling them fascists in TV

only refferendum guarantee that this is people choice

otherwise i remeber this:

- "if anyone of my ministers would raise taxes i will fire him first"

after election

- "we decided there is need to raise taxes"

after demonstration

- "because of hooligans we had to order police to punch them because there were riots and we cannot allow those fascicsts to ruin country"

the same is with other issues:

"we will not touch moral cases, we must care about our tradition cause tradition build this nation"

after election:

"we have to change moral issues in law"

after demonstration

"those bigots and fascists are danger for civilised society we must move foreward to EU..."

there should not be situation when you vote for politician who says "i will do A, i will not allow to do B" and day after he is elected he says "everyone knows that B is must, and we cannot agree on A cause it is idiotic" and when people prostest than riots police , tear gas etc.

in case of some moral issues 70, 80 percent of society is AGAINST but government forces it and put legislation which allows something which is good only for minority , for me than it becomes tyrany

more over , in my country government throw to trash bin signatures of milion people who signed to do referendum about something

and only way is to not nove for government but... this is every 4 or 5 years,

what if government breaks promisses at first week of ruling and you have to wait 4 or 5 years ???

and you know they break promise, suddenly their support in polls goes down but .. you are told to wait 4 years and in this period they will turn your life into totall mess,

example:

tax policy

someone says "we will cut down this tax"

they were voted

week or month after they raise that tax

and you have to pay otherwise it will be law enforced

and media say to protesting people "you can vote other person in next elections"

but you have to pay this tax for this 4 years

this is fuckup

thats why i support gun rigths, because when someone would shoot one or another liar - they would LEARN to obey promisses due to FEAR of their life or their families lives

wild west build Americas democracy

guns make Swizerland honest country

some people do not afraid anything cause they know you can do shit to them,

they live in protected area, they have armored glass in BMW7

but from time to time they are at public place, what people can do ? shout ? throw stone ?

politician must obey what he promissed, if he cannot fulfill what he promissed , he must go away,

it is like job, if i hire you and i pay you must do what i say or resign and return me money (in case of politician we pay them 4 years from above)

the biggest problem of our democracies is that politicians do not care what they promise BEFORE election

Lech Walesa - this guy who tells he smashed communism (without telling what we feel) promissed in 1990 that if he will win, he will give every person 100 000 000 PLN (hundred milions)

really, no joke, guy said that

he also promissed that when he will be president (1990) than EVERY crminal will have confiscated property and criminal will left "only in socks" "bandits will be left only in socks"(" pusci aferzystów w skarpetkach")

he promissed that there will be confiscation of property of bandits,

what he made ?

biggest mafia was in early 90s, when Lech Walesa was president, than people elected post commie Kwasniewski

it was his time when mafia bosses were rulling on streets of big cities like my city, when shooting, explosions, hanged people were for me normal view when i was young,

Lech Walesa said that criminals will have confiscated property and only socks will left to them, than we all observed bandits who left prisons (mass amnesty, lots of criminals get cut their sentences)

people voted for harsh law, people get liberal law, and criminals and bandits ruled our streets in early 90s and they had first Ferrari i seen, first Porshe, first Mercedes S klass, BMW M5, BMW M7,

supermodel sluts etc.

a guy who was sitting in prison for causing death durring robbery in my block of flats, in socialism get life sentence, in 1991 he was free and started making problems in our block,

Lech Walesa said he promisses confiscation of property of criminals, instead of this man sentenced for life, was free,

every goddamn politician in my country (knowing our mentality ) promisses harsh law, long sentences

most of them later say about "human rights" and criminals get short sentence, fitness, spa in prison which looks like hotel,

if there would be refferendums, than for pedophilia there would be death sentence here, for burglary 10 years and we could shoot in defence of property like in Texas,

now man who came from labour union, Lech Walesa says that there should be riot police used to batton people who strike for labor rights

Edited June 28, 2015 by vilas

[gammadust 12]

What have you done oxmox? :o (actually the idea of a thread for global issues had crossed my mind before)

Rydygier for the Ontopic. I find it hard to go point by point on those questions but feel like pointing out one or two things.

There is something i truly find wonderful when a "democracy" adventures its first steps, that is, its very meaning defines itself, though not from a blank sheet of paper, it inherits historical experiences. In my country after four decades of fascism ending in a non-violent revolution a Constitution was drafted and voted in a instituted representative parliament for the effect, formed by a number of political parties voted by the population. Political sentiments ware made relatively more mature given the decades under the system that was lived by those generations previously. These sentiments were still more defined as an opposition to the fascist regime characteristics than political science as learned in academy, the general population did not have that access, even this was to change from then on.

The point is: "democracy", in my view, is a concept that necessarily obtains qualities along with the (l)earned political maturity of the populations adopting its general notions. One consequence of this, which history fully demonstrates, is that any artificial attempt (ie. not native to these populations) to allow/impose one society to adopt "democratic values" is assured of failure. Pretty much as you have put it:

I'm harming its idea beeing unprepared to defend it in substantive way

Only a fundamentalist brand of ethnocentrism can dream with the export of so called "democratic values" to other countries/cultures deemed lacking them and expect success. When one criticises the political system a society adopts one must always take into consideration the ®evolutions it is under. The only legitimately qualified to do so are the natives of such society.

---

But there is another point:

The political and the economic systems are the de jure and de facto facets of the nature of power. The historical observation shows an evolution in transfer of origin of power in societies, ranging from: slave ownership, land ownership, trade control, industrial capacity and ultimately, credit creation. Arguably it is where the economical power emerges that defines the economical order transformations, but so that a relative stability is mantained, progressively the political system also changes its nature, reflecting the change of the center of power. Sometimes violently.

"Democracy" ethimologicaly defined as "power of the people" is a myth serving the political class which serves the economical power at a given point in history. It does not matter at all if political systems allow the populations voting rights, if what they are voting upon, or what the political parties they elect don't have any possibility to define the fundamental economic order. They are destitute of actual power to define their society.

So, if i am to stay true to what "Democracy" means ethimologicaly, when evaluating a society, i become fully concerned with the population's ability to bring transformation to their economical order (let's even disregard now in which direction). I don't generally find this ability in western societies, and for that matter other developed countries.

Portugal, where i live, in 1988, two years after the accession to the European Economic Community, the parliament (with the support of both left and right - the social democrats, the liberal and conservative parties) changed the Constitution transferring the Portuguese Central Bank prerogatives to the EEC organs, paving the way for the Maastricht treaty (phonetically gives us "Tratado Mais Triste" - "Saddest Treaty" - which is very appropriate). And so, one of the fundamental instruments to exert control on the portuguese economy, that of money emission and credit creation, was surrendered to foreign third party interests. In 1992 the saddest treaty was ratified by the liberals, and in 2000, the social democrats welcomed the Euro currency. The Constitutional hurdles for the transfer of sovereignty had been removed. No, Portugal as ceased to be a "democracy" some time ago, and along with it most European Union countries unable to have their legitimate economical interests represented, no matter how one colours their political systems.

---

Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power

Or, further down in history, instead of a "merger of State and Banking / Finance power", as in these last stages of Capitalism stability.

Democracy, insuficiently defined as a "merger of State and People's power". The naivety of such definition comes from the umbrella term "People", which includes all elements within a society, disregarding their distinct economic functions and influencial power, and specially their contradictory interests.

Whatever may be called that, which "merges the State and the Economic Agents which create wealth power"?

Edited June 28, 2015 by gammadust

[oxmox 73]

Before elections in Argentina.....

Argentine judge orders seizure of Falklands drillers' assets

An Argentine judge has ordered the seizure of assets of oil drilling companies operating in the Falklands Islands, including property held by U.S. firm Noble Energy, as the country takes a firmer line on the disputed territory ahead of October elections.

The companies named in the order were Premier Oil Plc, Falkland Oil and Gas Ltd, Rockhopper Exploration Plc, Noble Energy Inc and Edison International Spa.

Lilian Herraez, a federal judge in Tierra del Fuego, ordered the seizure of $156 million in bank accounts, boats and other property, the government said on Saturday.

Britain and Argentina fought a short war in 1982, after the then Argentine military dictatorship briefly seized the islands, and tensions have escalated again in recent years with the discovery of oil deposits.

Argentina has promised to resolve the dispute through diplomacy, but politicians often ramp up rhetoric around election time.

Argentina claims sovereignty over the South Atlantic islands which it calls the Malvinas, located about 435 miles (700 km) off the coast of Tierra del Fuego and occupied by around 3,000 people who mostly say they wish them to remain a British overseas territory.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/27/us-argentina-falklands-idUSKBN0P70QP20150627

[spooky lynx 73]

Ok. So you confirm that there's no Freedom of Sexuality in Russia. Fine. It's what I already thought.

If the freedom of sexuality in the west means something like street dogs' behavior then thanks, here people do not like such things, be it straight or homo/bi/zoosexual etc.

No, it was not - and the appellation was rejected unlawfully.

As for attacks, one case: http://www.svoboda.org/content/article/27083723.html

But sure as hell you would say it's all lies, it was all not like this, etc.

Any less biased source than radio station founded by US govt as anti-USSR propaganda tool?

A man accusing whole world of trying to destabilize Russia says I have black/white vision?

A man putting words in others' mouths is angry when he thinks same is done to him?

You just redefined irony.

Please show my words about the whole world. You won't find any. Oh and US and their puppets don't form the whole world fortunately.

[mistyronin 1181]

If the freedom of sexuality in the west means something like street dogs' behavior then thanks, here people do not like such things, be it straight or homo/bi/zoosexual etc.

I fail to see the connection between a couple of homosexual walking down the street with "street dogs' behavior".

[John Kozak 14]

Any less biased source than radio station founded by US govt as anti-USSR propaganda tool?

Sure, here are a couple: https://meduza.io/news/2015/06/21/v-magadane-izbit-storonnik-navalnogo

https://slon.ru/posts/53028

Please show my words about the whole world. You won't find any. Oh and US and their puppets don't form the whole world fortunately.

Everyone has understood what I was talking about, now you're starting to pick on words trying to distort meaning. Classic fake argument, so well described by Zhvanetsky.

Again for you: it's you who has black and white vision. Stop projecting it on others.

Edited June 29, 2015 by DarkWanderer

[St. Jimmy 272]

Before elections in Argentina.....

Argentine judge orders seizure of Falklands drillers' assets

An Argentine judge has ordered the seizure of assets of oil drilling companies operating in the Falklands Islands, including property held by U.S. firm Noble Energy, as the country takes a firmer line on the disputed territory ahead of October elections.

The companies named in the order were Premier Oil Plc, Falkland Oil and Gas Ltd, Rockhopper Exploration Plc, Noble Energy Inc and Edison International Spa.

Lilian Herraez, a federal judge in Tierra del Fuego, ordered the seizure of $156 million in bank accounts, boats and other property, the government said on Saturday.

Britain and Argentina fought a short war in 1982, after the then Argentine military dictatorship briefly seized the islands, and tensions have escalated again in recent years with the discovery of oil deposits.

Argentina has promised to resolve the dispute through diplomacy, but politicians often ramp up rhetoric around election time.

Argentina claims sovereignty over the South Atlantic islands which it calls the Malvinas, located about 435 miles (700 km) off the coast of Tierra del Fuego and occupied by around 3,000 people who mostly say they wish them to remain a British overseas territory.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/27/us-argentina-falklands-idUSKBN0P70QP20150627

Ooooh things can get heated up there again. Very understandable that Argentina wants those islands to themselves, can't really blame on that.

[mistyronin 1181]

Ooooh things can get heated up there again. Very understandable that Argentina wants those islands to themselves, can't really blame on that.

I think that is a cheap and populist way to get electoral support.

As oxmox well said, that happens really close to the October elections.

For instance in Spain happens something similar with Gibraltar.

An Argentine judge has ordered the seizure of assets of oil drilling companies operating in the Falklands Islands, including property held by U.S. firm Noble Energy, as the country takes a firmer line on the disputed territory ahead of October elections.