The sniper saga

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (cybrid @ Oct. 16 2002,18:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But thats still not more than a lifer, because they cost millions, not hundreds of thousands. $40,000 per year in Canada, thats $1 000 000 for a full 25 years sentance, imagine the cost in the US where life literaly means life.<span id='postcolor'>

You are completely ignoring the facts.

$40,000 a year in Canada for 25 years. Fine.

In the US life does not mean life. An inmate can get life and still get out on parole unless they are given life WITHOUT PAROLE (standard in SOME criminal cases).

You seem to think that since the State kills someone it produces less costs and you are wrong. The death penalty produces FAR more costs then a standard trial as evidenced by the links (whether they are ORG or not!. Take a standard Criminal Justice class and you will understand the immense cost burdened by the State (ie taxpayers) to prove that a death penalty is warranted. Then add on YEARS of legal appeals. You forget that an inmate can not be put to death until ALL their legal appeals are exhausted (or the inmate waives such appeals as is sometimes the case). There are inmates on death row from the 70s! One million for a 25 year sentence. Thats good. Now look at the cost of the death penalty in Texas (where I live) which is an AVERAGE of 2.3 million dollars due to prosecution fees, and NUMEROUS legal appeals.

Deny it if you wish, but the facts are plain and easily obtainable.

[cybrid 0]

With a life sentance they still have to through all the leagal crap anyway, and My $1 000 000 was only the cost to keep them in prison, once you add all the leagal crap onto it, I'm sure it goes much higher.

[Akira 0]

And my numbers are what it costs OVER the ammount of simple life imprisonment....ie 2.3 million OVER the cost of life imprisonment.

In Texas, a death penalty case costs an average of $2.3 million, about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years. (Dallas Morning News, March 8, 1992).

That is from a newspaper...not an ORG.

And life imprisonment doesn't recieve the same appeals as a death penalty. If you are in prison you get an appeal if you can prove to a court that you deserve one and you have to have a warranted legal reason (ie bad representation, new evidence, etc etc). In death penaties your appeal is AUTOMATIC.

[MJM0771 0]

So in either case, its freakin' expensive and the taxpayer has to flip the bill.

I guess its a small price to pay to live in a country that treats everyone fair.

I guess things could be worse...

The world could be under the Taliban rule.

(i.e. Drag a suspected person to a middle of a soccer field and blow his/her brains out in front of the village, then ask questions later.)

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MJM0771 @ Oct. 16 2002,18:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So in either case, its freakin' expensive and the taxpayer has to flip the bill.

I guess its a small price to pay to live in a country that treats everyone fair.

I guess things could be worse...

The world could be under the Taliban rule.

(i.e. Drag a suspected person to a middle of a soccer field and blow his/her brains out in front of the village, then ask questions later.)<span id='postcolor'>

I say we put em on a rocket and shoot em to the sun. Hell...the rocket doesn't even have to be that expensive or well built

[xmurderx 0]

ok this is the way Ive allways seen it. take all the imates and send them to an island, then make a giant arena on the island and hold matchs against imates. make them fight for thier lives, and if people want to watch they have to pay, kinda like pay per view. it will cost alot for the island but in the end it will even out and the criminals will be killing each other and the goverment would be making money at the same time.

[Placebo 29]

This thread was about the sniper issue, it's now been taken off topic into a DP debate, please take it back to the sniper issue (assuming there is more to add) or it will be closed

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This thread was about the sniper issue, it's now been taken off topic into a DP debate<span id='postcolor'>

There are exceptions to every rule Placebo.

A conversation or debate about the sniper is very likely to turn into a debate about gun control or the 'death penalty vs. life in prison' debate. These things go hand in hand. IMO

Such is the natural flow of human conversation, I suggest this thread stay open, unless you want 3 separate threads about the sniper, gun control, and the death penalty.

Anyways.

This sniper has shot 11 people and killed 9 of them, all without being caught. I honestly don't think that they will catch him alive. It might end in a police chase or hostage situation where the guy might shoot himself because he knows he facing some serious time.

I also don't think that we should call this guy a sniper. In my personal dictionary, a sniper is a person that will save more lives than he will take. This guy is merely a murderer who's weapon of choice happens to be a long rifle.

Tyler

[cybrid 0]

We should just find a much more efficent way to kill them then. I'm shure Hitler could come up with a pretty good idea, maybe death camps for criminals. Sounds good to me.

[iNeo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ Oct. 16 2002,19:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This thread was about the sniper issue, it's now been taken off topic into a DP debate, please take it back to the sniper issue (assuming there is more to add) or it will be closed <span id='postcolor'>

There will always be more to add, until the sniper is caught...

[iNeo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Oct. 16 2002,19:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I also don't think that we should call this guy a sniper. In my personal dictionary, a sniper is a person that will save more lives than he will take. This guy is merely a murderer who's weapon of choice happens to be a long rifle.<span id='postcolor'>

He uses a sniper rifle and shoots people at pretty long distances, sounds like a sniper to me

Anyway, if they say he doesn't act like a psycho, then I think too that it could be a terrorist attack   Could also be that the ones that said the guys in the van looked like they came from the middle east were lieing, you never know.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (iNeo @ Oct. 16 2002,2104)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">He uses a sniper rifle and shoots people at pretty long distances, sounds like a sniper to me <!--emo&

Anyway, if they say he doesn't act like a psycho, then I think too that it could be a terrorist attack   Could also be that the ones that said the guys in the van looked like they came from the middle east were lieing, you never know.<span id='postcolor'>

-- A trained sniper won't choose a .223 rifle.

-- His longest shots have been from about 100 yards. Child's play.

If these were terrorist attacks I believe some sort of message claiming responsibility would have been delivered to the media by now.

Semper Fi

[Sam Samson 0]

you guys remember that the lt col in apocalypse now always put playing cards on dead vietcong? (you know, the sniper left a tarot card...)

either he just watched too much ap. now or he's a military wannabe or both.

I agree with e6hotel.

a real sniper would'nt have chosen a 5.56 mm and would have shot from further away. (in the US you can buy powerful sniper rifles for more than 20.000 $ in some stores.)

[Tex -USMC- 0]

I cannot believe some of the crazy shit some 'news' shows have been coming up with about this guy.

Terrorist? I say bullshit. A terrorist by definition has a political agenda, and would either A) Have claimed responsibility and then issued demands or some sort of manifesto, or B) Attacked a person or group of people with some political or symbolic significance.

Not only has noone claimed responsibility, but this guy is picking random targets.

Sniper? Nope. Uses the wrong kind of rifle, isnt all that good a shot anyways, and no real sniper would be dumb enough to CONTINUE shooting people after it has become the biggest news story in America.

Lastly, I'm fairly sure that this tragedy is going to be used to try and push for a ban on firearms all together. Too bad, but did you really not see it coming?

[Mister Frag 0]

I don't recall Al Quaeda or any other terrorists making demands either before or after they hit the World Trade Center towers in New York, or the embassies in Africa, or the USS Cole, or the Sari nightclub in Bali.

What is happening around Washington would not be out of character for them.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

I said that is one of the ways that terrorists usually operate. And you will notice that Al-Qaeda did take responsibility for 9/11

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Oct. 16 2002,13:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">-- A trained sniper won't choose a .223 rifle.<span id='postcolor'>

A .223 is not an inappropriate choice for hitting someone without body armor at these distances. And if he is using an assault rifle, it would also make a good tool for engaging any law enforcement officers that might respond to the sniper.

Ironically, I think the 13-year old boy who was hit outside of his school survived in part because he is physically smaller than an adult. Some bullets (the .223 included) need a certain distance during the terminal ballistics stage to either expand or fragment in order to be fully effective. If the bullet has lost too much velocity to reliably expand or fragment before hitting the target, or if the target isn't very deep, the damage done to the tissue may not prove to be fatal.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Oct. 16 2002,18:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't recall Al Quaeda or any other terrorists making demands either before or after they hit the World Trade Center towers in New York, or the embassies in Africa, or the USS Cole, or the Sari nightclub in Bali.

What is happening around Washington would not be out of character for them.<span id='postcolor'>

You don't recall? Maybe because "terrorist" groups' messages are not publicized in the western world. Of course there were warnings and messages from Bin Laden himself... and for years too. Since this killer is still hunting it's possible there would be no message yet, but he is picking strange targets... although all of the targets appear to be very well off, in appearance they are well fed, usually in big cars (or just appear to have money), and I have not seen him shoot anyone of arabic backgrnd.

So it is possible this is a terrorist attack, but not likely. This man or men also have to fit in well in US society not to be found yet.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Oct. 17 2002,00:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A .223 is not an inappropriate choice for hitting someone without body armor at these distances. And if he is using an assault rifle, it would also make a good tool for engaging any law enforcement officers that might respond to the sniper.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm not knocking 5.56; I've sent thousands of them downrange and I know it's a good round. I also know that if I have an option and I'm going for a one-shot drop, I'm using .308 or better. Many people on here have more ballistics knowledge than I do, but on the other hand, the Marine Corps spent considerable time and money teaching me how to put a .308 round on target. Per our training, .308 is considered the minimum size needed to destroy a brain stem when a circuitry shot is called for.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

Semper Fi

[Mister Frag 0]

E6Hotel, I wasn't disputing what you wrote, all I'm saying is that for a 100-yard shot, the .223 will do just fine if it hits its mark.

In addition, a carbine in this caliber would make a good defensive weapon if he is detected. -- certainly better than a bolt action rifle or battle rifle in .308.

[Mister Frag 0]

bn880, don't you think the Western media would pick up on any demands or statements made by any groups claiming responsibility, and have a field day with them?

There have been statements attributed to Osama Bin Laden, for example, but no specific threats, only a vague "we'll hit you in unexpected ways." I think what is happening around Washington could fit.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Oct. 16 2002,19:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There have been statements attributed to Osama Bin Laden, for example, but no specific threats, only a vague "we'll hit you in unexpected ways." I think what is happening around Washington could fit.<span id='postcolor'>

Well yes, I think so too... the enemy will be as specific as they can without us being able to intercept them. If Osama claimed responsibility for WTC immediately (publically), he would probably have gotten killed.

Still, Americans, Jews, and their supporters have been "warned" by terrorist groups, years ago and recently as well. Many people also tend to forget this easily.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Oct. 16 2002,19:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">bn880, don't you think the Western media would pick up on any demands or statements made by any groups claiming responsibility, and have a field day with them?<span id='postcolor'>

Only the ones they like!

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">-- A trained sniper won't choose a .223 rifle.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree with e6hotel.

a real sniper would'nt have chosen a 5.56 mm and would have shot from further away. <span id='postcolor'>

A real sniper wouldn't go around shooting innocent people for the hell of it.

Tyler

[Audie Murphy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Oct. 16 2002,20:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">-- A trained sniper won't choose a .223 rifle.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree with e6hotel.

a real sniper would'nt have chosen a 5.56 mm and would have shot from further away. <span id='postcolor'>

A real sniper wouldn't go around shooting innocent people for the hell of it.

Tyler<span id='postcolor'>

.233 caliber IS 5.56 nato