The sniper saga

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Oct. 17 2002,0108)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">E6Hotel, I wasn't disputing what you wrote, all I'm saying is that for a 100-yard shot, the .223 will do just fine if it hits its mark.

In addition, a carbine in this caliber would make a good defensive weapon if he is detected. -- certainly better than a bolt action rifle or battle rifle in .308.<span id='postcolor'>

<Jamaican voice>No worries mon.<Jamaican voice off>It's obvious when someone knows their stuff. I'm just saying that 5.56 shouldn't be considered a "sniper" rifle.

It's certainly possible that this could be a terrorist operation but it doesn't seem likely to me. Terrorists could do much greater damage at less personal risk.

Semper Fi

[xmurderx 0]

maybe it is a terrorist

maybe they know if a terrorist organization claimed credit for it the military would have to step in

terrorist are very smart people and 10 times out of 10 know what they are doing.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (xmurderx @ Oct. 17 2002,06:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">terrorist are very smart people and 10 times out of 10 know what they are doing.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, they are so smart that they are convinced that the best way to get what they want is to kill themselves or put themselves into positions where they will most likely be killed. Duh.

I think that in the past year the words 'terrorist' and 'terrorism' have been grossly misused as well as overused, and people's understanding of what a terrorist actually is has been lost. Terrorism , from the straight dictionary definition, is "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

A terrorist's acts are nearly always motivated by ideological or political ideas, and a terrorist uses violence as a means to his or her particular end. A terrorist doesn't just go out and kill people for the fun of it- they have a goal that, although it is based on misinformation and ignorance, is nonetheless very real in the terrorist's mind.

Now, by logic, if a terrorist wants to achieve his/her goals through the violence he/she commits, then they must make clear to the government (that has the power to effect the changes the terrorist desires) who is committing the acts and why- otherwise, the government doesn't know what to change, and therefore cannot change it. That puts the terrorist in the awkward position of putting himself at risk for no gain. Oh, and by the way, he isnt a terrorist anymore if he does this. He's just a common criminal. Yes, labels are dynamic. If it looks like a cow, smells like a cow, is in fact a cow, but claims it's a horse, what do you call it?

So basically, if, by some small chance these shootings are being comitted by a terrorist, he is the dumbest terrorist in the world, because his goal can never be achieved, because noone but him knows what it is. And since the gunman's actions up to this point suggest that he is at least moderately intelligent, I would doubt that he would go to so much trouble to commit these crimes so competently and then completely screw up the political agenda of his mission.

If someone wants to sidle up to the bar and give us some solid evidence that these shootings are terrorist acts, I am all ears. Until then, banging your head against the English language is not going to do anything but make you reach for the Aspirin. Have a nice day.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">.233 caliber IS 5.56 nato <span id='postcolor'>

Not quite, there are minor differences in the case thickness and shape. 5.56 NATO has to be tougher to handle all the variances in the different military rifles it can be fired from.

Tyler

EDIT: </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Until then, banging your head against the English language is not going to do anything but make you reach for the Aspirin. <span id='postcolor'>

Tex. Please don't tell me that when you go to university, you plan on majoring in English. The world has enough pompous asses already.

[iNeo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Oct. 16 2002,22:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">-- A trained sniper won't choose a .223 rifle.<span id='postcolor'>

Who said he's a trained sniper?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Oct. 16 2002,22:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">-- His longest shots have been from about 100 yards. Child's play.<span id='postcolor'>

If he tries to terror the US, why would he take unneccessary risks by shooting from a greater distance and miss many more targets? If he's not a trained sniper and not a terrorist, maybe he's doing the best he can.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Oct. 16 2002,22:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If these were terrorist attacks I believe some sort of message claiming responsibility would have been delivered to the media by now.<span id='postcolor'>

I never said that he's an AQ terrorist or something, but you never know. Could aswell be just a 'normal' guy, not a trained sniper, not a terrorist, just a psycho - that can't afford a sniper rifle for $20.000...:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Oct. 16 2002,23:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">in the US you can buy powerful sniper rifles for more than 20.000 $ in some stores.<span id='postcolor'>

[BlueJames 1]

The sniper is well trained, familiar with the AK74, he knows how to displace and dissappear after each shot, and he's an incredible shot. He has killed 9 people, and wounded 2. 9 dead, 11 shot. 9/11 He shot the 2 wounded in the torso, and not in the head like all the others. Coordinated with the bomb in Bali, plus those US marines that were attacked a few days ago. It can't be anything but AQ.

[Balschoiw 0]

To see relations between AQ and the US shooter is just ridiculous.

[iNeo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BlueJames @ Oct. 17 2002,16:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The sniper is well trained, familiar with the AK74, he knows how to displace and dissappear after each shot, and he's an incredible shot.  He has killed 9 people, and wounded 2.  9 dead, 11 shot.  9/11  He shot the 2 wounded in the torso, and not in the head like all the others.  Coordinated with the bomb in Bali, plus those US marines that were attacked a few days ago.  It can't be anything but AQ.<span id='postcolor'>

He missed one shot, I think? That would be 12 shots, 9 dead, 2 seriously wounded. I don't think anyone can say that he's not any good. (I'm definitly not refering to you, BlueJames.)

But how do you know that he's familiare with the AK74?

[Sadico 1]

I'm sure as hell he is not using the ak-74, that's 5.45x39mm and the guy is using 5,56x45mm. Also, why bother using the ak-74 if you can buy more accurate rifles in any US gun shop?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BlueJames @ Oct. 17 2002,16:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The sniper is well trained, familiar with the AK74, he knows how to displace and dissappear after each shot, and he's an incredible shot.  

 <span id='postcolor'>

Ehm. Shooting people at a range of 100 m requires minimal skill. An average soldier can drop human sized targets at twice the range using just iron sights.

As for him dissappearing, yes he knows how to drive a car???

Really, shooting unarmed civilians in an urban area does not require much skill.

[DarkLight 0]

Saying that AQ has something to do with this is overreacting, sheesh, you can't blame anything on them...

[Sadico 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Saying that AQ has something to do with this is overreacting, sheesh, you can't blame anything on them...<span id='postcolor'>

You surely mean you can't blame everything on them, don't you?

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Oct. 17 2002,16:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Really, shooting unarmed civilians in an urban area does not require much skill.<span id='postcolor'>

Yep. "Fish in a barrel" comes to mind. As for the AK-74 reference, one of the witnesses is adamant that's what he saw the shooter use.

NYTimes

Seems to me the police could verify this with the casing found near the school shooting.

I'm surprised that AQ or another equally worthless group HASN'T tried to claim responsibility. In any case I'm sure that this episode will inspire them. Anyone read "Under Siege" by Stephen Coonts (no relation to the Stevie Seagal flick)?

Semper Fi

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Oct. 17 2002,02:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."<span id='postcolor'>

Sounds alot like Bush.

[Sadico 1]

E6Hotel, you must register in the new york times to use that link. Don't you have any other link?

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BlueJames @ Oct. 17 2002,10:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The sniper is well trained, familiar with the AK74, he knows how to displace and dissappear after each shot, and he's an incredible shot. He has killed 9 people, and wounded 2. 9 dead, 11 shot. 9/11 He shot the 2 wounded in the torso, and not in the head like all the others. Coordinated with the bomb in Bali, plus those US marines that were attacked a few days ago. It can't be anything but AQ.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh come on.... I'm just impressed with him not getting cought, not for the reason that he just drives away, but that no one has realized who he is yet.

You are jumping to conclusions a bit too far... 9/11, Bali... does not mean any of it is on purpose. Actually I'm pretty sure he was not thinking of making numbers with his kills.

[E6Hotel 0]

No other link right now. Sorry; here's the text.

Sniper Sighting Fails to Create a Clear Picture

By FRANCIS X. CLINES

OCKVILLE, Md., Oct. 16 — The police announced today that they had no sketch to offer the public in their hunt for the suburban sniper because witnesses who saw him kill his latest victim could not agree on details in the mayhem of the shooting scene.

Investigators confirmed that more than one witness saw the latest slaying, on Monday, but they would not disclose any details other than the fact that the sniper is male.

"There are a couple of people who believe they saw a man shoot," said Capt. Nancy Demme of the Montgomery County police. "Unfortunately, distance and darkness and, perhaps, adrenaline have made them unable to give us a clear composite that we can disseminate."

The captain did not say, however, what partial descriptions or other new evidence investigators might be working with in their manhunt.

The search by hundreds of police officers went into a third week with the Washington region fearfully anticipating that the sniper is not finished with a rampage in which he has killed nine and wounded two others in separate single-shot attacks.

With a single rifle shot to the head, the sniper killed 47-year-old Linda Franklin on Monday night as she loaded her car at a shopping center in Falls Church, Va. Nearby witnesses said they saw the shooting and offered the police details about the sniper, who they said fled the scene in the same sort of light-colored van that the police have been seeking from his earlier attacks.

One witness identified the weapon that the sniper shouldered, about 90 feet from Ms. Franklin, as an AK-74, a high-powered Russian-made assault rifle that can fire the type of bullets used in the slayings, the police said. They emphasized that this detail might be off somewhat because slightly different rifles, like light vans, can appear so similar in the frenzy of a crime scene.

Through the day, there was a sense that the manhunt was taking a more intensive tack on the basis of fresh, substantial evidence collected but not publicly disclosed after the Monday shooting, including partial license plate data. One report was of a Maryland tag, but investigators declined to comment.

As in other periods of respite in the random assaults, news reports surfaced of individuals under surveillance, but the police emphasized they had no prime suspect to talk of. A steady run of arrests continued as agents of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms pursued tips and found individuals with illegal rifles, but no prime suspect.

The leaders of the local, state and federal manhunt task force were unavailable for comment as they gathered for a private strategy meeting. The elusive rifleman has baffled police in five jurisdictions across a two-state 50-mile swath of the Washington suburbs. Commanders have tightly restricted their comments to allow him no hint of their strategy.

In another measure of the sniper's effects on local life, the opening of the muzzle-loading deer-hunting season was suspended by Maryland in a four-county region where the sniper has been preying.

"We don't want our officers chasing false alarms of shots fired," explained Doug Duncan, the Montgomery County executive.

Gov. Parris N. Glendening banned all recreational shooting except at approved firing ranges until the sniper is caught.

With thousands of calls to the police logged, the captain urged residents to keep calling about suspicious neighbors and "potential suspects," people suspiciously angry or absent from work routines or involved with weapons, she explained.

During the times of his repeated assaults, the sniper must so far be going unaccounted for by anyone familiar with his routine, Captain Demme said.

On Monday night, one witness talked of an olive-skinned man as a possible suspect. But the police would not confirm this, emphasizing factors like the yellowish dim light at the open-air parking garage crime scene, as well as disparities with other partial descriptions.

"The only common denominator thus far is male," Captain Demme said. "We don't have a refined description to go by."

With residents fully expecting another shooting soon, there was wide speculation that the sniper might be pursuing a new sort of gamesmanship by letting witnesses see him standing and taking aim on Monday night in the garage. In previous shootings, the gunman has shot across greater distances from perches hidden from witnesses.

His weapon can be accurate across 500 yards, say ballistics specialists who found he is using high-intensity .223-caliber bullets of the sort designed to bring down soldiers or large game on the run.

As each shooting occurs without an arrest, "the concern level and the anxiety level are rising," said Mr. Duncan, chief executive in Montgomery County, where the sniper has killed six people. Public resolve to carry on with life is growing, too, Mr. Duncan insisted.

The other three killings were in Virginia, to the south and west, enlarging the region's circle of fear.

Federal agents say they have been receiving many tips from residents alarmed about gun-owning neighbors. "Most of these are possessed legally," said Michael Bouchard, chief agent of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, in the hunt.

"However, some are possessed by people who shouldn't have them," Mr. Bouchard added, cautioning against alarmist reports when the individuals are questioned.

Edit: @#$%ing double posts.

Semper Fi

[DarkLight 0]

Here's what i found on the Death Penalty so far, it's not exactly what i thought. I guess I remembered it wrong but it still proves that a lot of innocents die...

from http://www.deathpenalty.org/facts/other/ineffective.shtml

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The USA is unable to prevent accidental execution of innocent people.

Studies show that in this century, at least 400 innocent people have been convicted of capital crimes they did not commit. Of those 400, 23 were executed. The wrongful execution of an innocent person is an injustice that can never be rectified. Since the reinstatement of the death penalty, 102 men and women have been released from Death Row....some only minutes away from execution.

<span id='postcolor'>

Of course this only includes some people, there probable are some more innocents that got executed but where we still don't know from that they were innocent...

And they are talking about a short period...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Our conclusion is that this is a classic example of disparate treatment, that is, people are being treated differently on the basis of factors that have nothing whatever to do with their culpability but rather on the socioeconomic status of the victim that they have killed. It's a system-wide influence that exists in both the major urban counties and it exists in greater Nebraska, and you can see it in the decisions of both the prosecutors and the sentencing judges." (Testimony given by study author David Baldus for LR 192, 10/17/01)

<span id='postcolor'>

Well i don't have much time anymore, just read it if you're interested.

[BlueJames 1]

I bet you there are no more shootings for a while. It can't all just be dumb luck, plus this guy is getting head shots at good distences. And don't talk to me about what a trained soldier can hit, I am one.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">His weapon can be accurate across 500 yards, say ballistics specialists who found he is using high-intensity .223-caliber bullets of the sort designed to bring down soldiers or large game on the run.<span id='postcolor'>

Hmmmm, aren't all rifle bullets meant to do that? LOL, these "ballistic experts" really get me. .223 taking down large game?, it's illegal to hunt deer in most states with that calibre.

What exactly is 'high-intensity' anyways? The only thing I could think of is that he is using heavier bullets.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And don't talk to me about what a trained soldier can hit, I am one.<span id='postcolor'>

Well good for you.

Tyler

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BlueJames @ Oct. 17 2002,18:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I bet you there are no more shootings for a while.  It can't all just be dumb luck, plus this guy is getting head shots at good distences.  And don't talk to me about what a trained soldier can hit, I am one.<span id='postcolor'>

If you think that hitting something at 100 m is an achievement then I would give you the advice to try to pursuade the military you are in to replace their slingshots with firearms

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Oct. 17 2002,19:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you think that hitting something at 100 m is an achievement then I would give you the advice to try to pursuade the military you are in to replace their slingshots with firearms <span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault(CAN) @ Oct. 17 2002,19:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well good for you. <span id='postcolor'>

I ain't sayin' nuthin.

Heh.

Semper Fi

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sadico @ Oct. 16 2002,17:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Saying that AQ has something to do with this is overreacting, sheesh, you can't blame anything on them...<span id='postcolor'>

You surely mean you can't blame everything on them, don't you?  <span id='postcolor'>

Whoops my bad

Yeha yeah, that's what i wanted to say!!!!

[E6Hotel 0]

Well, so much for the AK-74 nonsense.

"The witness came to police and said he saw a man shouldering a weapon -- he identified it an AK-74, an automatic assault rifle -- and about the van. But under questioning Wednesday night, the witness admitted that he had not been in the parking garage at the time of the shooting, but instead was inside the Home Depot, CNN has learned."

Smoking crack?

Semper Fi

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Eyewitnesses suck. Even when they are honest and not just glory-seekers, they always manage to fuck up the description. Remember the Una-bomber composite sketch years back? Did that look anything like Ted Kaczsynski (sp?)? Nope. They brought that case in by other means (brother went to the cops).

Basically, I would not trust the average American slob to be able to identify any kind of weaponry accurately.