Can people shoot rifle through the optic like acog with helmet mount night vision?

[seba1976 98]

AFAIK, you also need a muzzle flash suppresor, or the flash when you fire will blind you. And the problem with alignment is also present without optics, meaning you can't use the iron sights neither. Or at least that's what I know about the subject. The source is mainly, people explaining this to me, every time I've asked the very same question, for the last decade of playing OFP/Arma  :).

[andersson 285]

I have used NV goggles in the Finnish military, both a monocular version and a version with one for each eye. I can't see me using NV goggles together with sights, it pains my neck just thinking about lining it up. Clunky comes to mind... I used a laser mounted to my weapon and that works.

[squirrel0311 16]

Well this is beating a dead horse but I'd like to throw my two cents in anyway...

 

As others have already said, NO.  The Acog is not compatible with standard helmet mounted NVGs like the PVS-14s due to the magnification and more importantly the brightness/ halo effect of the Tritium sight.

 

The technique we used to use was the same for day time operations... Shoot with both eyes open.

 

In the daytime, this allows for a larger field of view which means better Situational Awareness.

 

At night time, we have our optics mounted to our NON dominant eye (I suppose that really doesn't matter as long as it's not the eye you look through your optic with.) ... While looking through our NVG's the sight would be somewhat superimposed on the image we see through the monocular allowing us to.... for the most part.. hit our targets pretty accurately and quickly. (Keep in mind that Ideally, lasers are the way to go compared to this method.)

 

They do make NV scopes that fit in front of the Acog like the AN/PVS-24. We were issued both NV and IR versions. http://www.x20.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/ANPVS24_0300.png

 

 

As for that video... Someone else already said that it looks like he's getting his cheek weld and using his left eye to watch the laser... From the angle that the monocular is looking down, it doesn't look like he could see very much, if not any of his sight at all. ... One of those guys looked like he was wearing PVS-7s which are old old NVGs. 

 

HOWEVER, as someone else has already said,  assuming those are real EOTechs, they do have an NV mode to dim the brightness, allowing you to look at your sight and not suffer wash out or halo effects. 

 

When Arma 3 was in the ALPHA stage it had the RCO scopes right... You could look through the red dot sight on top with your NVGs but if you switched to your 4x scope it would cut the NV out. 

[seba1976 98]

Thank you for you valuable input. It's always hard to find good sources on this. If I get you right, you are saying you used to use both eyes open and the monocular to see the ACOG reticle while wearing NVGs? But then you lost me with the EOTECH, as you are saying that, for the most part, it's OK to use them with NVG provided you can dim the reticle enough. So in short, what you are saying is that you can normally use holographic optics with NVGs, and even ACOGs (with the proper technique)? Or are you making a very specific difference between monocular and binocular NVGs?

 

Also, latetly, I've been told about the focus problem, which make it imposible to even use the iron sights, what's your stance on that? And of course the last thing I heard was that the muzzle flash will blind you with a non suppressed weapon, while using any kind of sight or optics, while using NVGs. Is that familiar to you, or you'd say it's bogus?

 

Thanks for any answer.

[squirrel0311 16]

Thank you for you valuable input. It's always hard to find good sources on this. If I get you right, you are saying you used to use both eyes open and the monocular to see the ACOG reticle while wearing NVGs? But then you lost me with the EOTECH, as you are saying that, for the most part, it's OK to use them with NVG provided you can dim the reticle enough. So in short, what you are saying is that you can normally use holographic optics with NVGs, and even ACOGs (with the proper technique)? Or are you making a very specific difference between monocular and binocular NVGs?

 

Also, latetly, I've been told about the focus problem, which make it imposible to even use the iron sights, what's your stance on that? And of course the last thing I heard was that the muzzle flash will blind you with a non suppressed weapon, while using any kind of sight or optics, while using NVGs. Is that familiar to you, or you'd say it's bogus?

 

Thanks for any answer.

 

With an ACOG, you cannot look into the sight with a Night Vision device because of the 4x magnification which might cause parallax problems and the glow of the reticle is usually too bright which causes blooming. http://www.hightechredneckincorporated.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/ying%20landscape%201.jpg(reticle blooming of red dot sight)

 

So instead, (for right handed shooters) you wear your PVS-14 monocular on your LEFT eye.  With your naked RIGHT eye, you look through the ACOG and with a little bit of practice you'll start seeing the reticle superimposed on the view of your left  NV eye. (It takes some work to learn how to do and get used to, especially if you're left eye dominant like me.)  This picture isn't very good but maybe it will help... http://cache2.asset-cache.net/gc/145091733-portrait-of-a-u-s-marine-wearing-night-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=a00bqDdJkm%2BpZcjTaTpGc8uhheYF7%2Ftwpg2Uk3U%2Bv3FP25tNMt1n2mRLjQmZtBC0zmqwPa3rKSp86Zu1cyEKdQ%3D%3D(Night vision on his left eye, rifle up, looking through the ACOG with his Right eye.) ...As I said before, keep in mind that this is not the primary method... If you have a laser you're going to want to use that instead (IN MOST CASES)... but if your PEQ-16 battery is dead (they go down quick) and you forgot your spare, you might find yourself doing the two eye method.

 

(I guess the way they have it in game right now is accurate since I can't see how you'd be able to impliment using two eyes in the game. Plus, as someone else already said it's the future so... NV ACOGs it is!)

 

 

EOTechs and Aimpoints have a night vision mode...  So (for a right handed shooter) if you had your sight mounted far enough forward, you could wear your NVG's on your right eye and look into the sight through your NV monocular. There might be a slight point of impact shift as well but it's probably negligable in most cases/senarios.

 

The main down side to looking through a holosight with helemet mounted NVGs is that it's very clumbsy, there is a lot of banging your NVGs against your gun and tilting your head to try and get proper alignment. On top of all that, your Field of View is much narrower when using nigh vision meaning you're missing what's going on around you when you've got your head down staring at the top of your weapon while trying to find that dot.

 

 

As for NVG Washout (AKA Flashout or whiteout) - it's just one of those things that happens. Yes muzzle flashes tend to be very bright looking through nvgs but so are regular lights or IR lights in some instances. Even with flash suppressors and silencers you still get a flash occasionally, more with the former than the latter.  The standard A2 bird cage flash hider does an adequate job... We've been using it for years and it hasn't presented any problems we couldn't adjust to and work around.

 

There is a gain knob on the NVGs that you can use to adjust the brightness of the picture, that helps a little bit depending on how much constant light you have coming into the NVGs. If you know you're going into a house with IR lights on you might adjust the gain beforehand so someone turning and shining their light on a wall doesn't blind you.

 

(Side note - Washout happens on Acogs with fiber optic illuminators too, that's why you'll see some guys with tape over their fiber optic pipe. http://www.nyfirearms.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/acog-chemlight.jpg )

 

 

As far as I know, there is no practical way to look down iron sights and still put rounds on target quickly and consistently... Iron sights are usually close to the gun which means lots of banging your NVGs against your weapon.... More importantly though is that NVGs have their own bit of parallax...(Might not be the word I'm looking for.)   You have to have eye relief to your nvgs then you have to have the proper relief to the sights... Which would mean the nvgs would have to be focused for stuff up close in order to get a clear picture of the front sight tip....so everything further out would be blurry. ..... Now imagine trying to do all that while being shot at. :/ 

[theevancat 277]

And that's why we just use lasers. Much simpler.

[gatordev 219]

And that's why we just use lasers. Much simpler.

 

Lasers can be counter-detected, so they're not always a good choice.  No matter how hi-speed and hidden you may be, as soon as you flick on the PEQ, everyone can see where you are.  I'm sure there's countless other examples out there, but this was an issue in Fallujah, specifically.

[seba1976 98]

...

Wow, thanks man. I really appreciate such an extensive and detailed answer. I will quote you forever  :).

 

The different techniques of using NVGs some sights and optics, even with the shortcomings you mention, they're all related to using monocular NVGs, from what I can see. I guess binocular NVGs are a complete no go for any kind of normal sight or optics, am I right? It would be common sense at this point, but I want to close the topic forever  :lol:.

[roberthammer 582]

I would say monocular NVG like PVS-14 is better in this regard ,but still you get the blooming of the Acog

 

you can fix that with a IR filter but then not sure about picture quality

 

http://forum.snipershide.info/showthread.php?t=24029

[seba1976 98]

@RoberHammer Just to be clear on this mate, my follow up to squirrel0311 was about helmet mounted monocular vs. binocular vs. iron sights, holographic sights, and optics like the ACOG.

[roberthammer 582]

@RoberHammer Just to be clear on this mate, my follow up to squirrel0311 was about helmet mounted monocular vs. binocular vs. iron sights, holographic sights, and optics like the ACOG.

PVS-14 is helmet mounted , also it can be mounted on the rifle

[theevancat 277]

Lasers can be counter-detected, so they're not always a good choice.  No matter how hi-speed and hidden you may be, as soon as you flick on the PEQ, everyone can see where you are.  I'm sure there's countless other examples out there, but this was an issue in Fallujah, specifically.

 

As a general rule of thumb we use lasers (mostly because we don't really worry about the Taliban having NODs.) They don't give highspeed NV optics to everyone. I'm sure it'd be different in an actually contested night environment.

[seba1976 98]

PVS-14 is helmet mounted , also it can be mounted on the rifle

I didn't say otherwise  :). But having them mounted on the weapon would make handling problems different, and off-topic (to the question being asked, that is).

[cosmic10r 2331]

Eye relief and parallax when using scopes is an important factor and this is what causes tremendous problems with NVG not even going into reticle brightness etc.

 

You may be able to get proper eye relief temporarily but  the cheek weld will be terrible...

 

Squirrel knows his stuff ;)

[gatordev 219]

As a general rule of thumb we use lasers (mostly because we don't really worry about the Taliban having NODs.) They don't give highspeed NV optics to everyone. I'm sure it'd be different in an actually contested night environment.

 

Yep, got that.  But reread my post.  While not Taliban, dudes who were thought to be operating on the basic "iron sights or nothing" plan ended up having NV.  And it doesn't have to be high-speed.  You can get a crappy GEN 1 tube for cheap, cheap, my friend, off the internet, and it will still detect the IR coming out of the laser.

 

Trust me, I'm familiar with using NODs and lasers (I wear NODs all the time in my day job), but even in a relatively non-contested environment, counter-detection can be a serious threat.

 

On a semi-related note, I got to put on some phosporus-based NVGs the other night that a guy on the civilian side had for his day job (he flies HEMS).  Wow, were they impressive.  Probably on par with OMNI VI technology, but man were they nice.

[five_seven5-7 56]

I had a totally different view from nvg before buying it.

 

I bought PNW-57a, the FOV its extremelly narrow and there is also an another variable, the focus. Every nvg have a minium focus distance even the latest gen have it. The PVS-15 have 9.8"/ 25 cm. This invalidates the use of iron sights and others type of sights. The only way its to use IR laser beams or to use specific nvg scopes.

[seba1976 98]

I had a totally different view from nvg before buying it.

 

I bought PNW-57a, the FOV its extremelly narrow and there is also an another variable, the focus. Every nvg have a minium focus distance even the latest gen have it. The PVS-15 have 9.8"/ 25 cm. This invalidates the use of iron sights and others type of sights. The only way its to use IR laser beams or to use specific nvg scopes.

Thanks a lot for your input.