MP Game Mode Support Feedback

[BennetArms 1]

Here is my version of it. You can dePbo it and view the content. Its pretty simple =)

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=351738309#

[the_demongod 31]

TY! Perhaps there is still a chance to do the Stratis one solo yet :)

It's still going to be hard :P we need a way of going up against APCs with little birds. Allow us to carry 2-4 DAGRs (not the fake-ass AH-99 DAGR, ones modeled to act like the real-life ones) on one side or something.

[delta99 34]

I followed the Wiki documentation to a tee and everything seems to be working fine (although I haven't tried supply boxes yet) except no matter what I try I cannot get respawn working for the player.

I tried with nothing setup since the wiki documentation does not mention anything about respawn other than putting down a Multiplayer -> Respawn Position module. Except doesn't seem to do a thing and when I die the mission ends. I've tried various methods that typically work using description.ext but I get strange behavior. For example if I specify "respawn = 3" then as soon as my player moves I get a "Restricted Area" warning and immediately have to respawn. At least in this case I get the respawn choice dialog but then anytime I move the same thing cycles again.

Anyone have any ideas?

[delta99 34]

Here is my version of it. You can dePbo it and view the content. Its pretty simple =)

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=351738309#

Seems to have major issues with respawn. I keep responding out in the middle of the dry lake bed in the middle of enemy territory.

---------- Post added at 22:32 ---------- Previous post was at 22:29 ----------

Is it possible to use this gamemode but not necessarily be completed tied to a hell support role? For example, it would be nice to actually participate in the ground war at times. This would also necessitate the ability to get out of a heli when one wanted to. Is there really any good reason to keep you locked in the heli? I can't think of one. Be nice to have human co-pilots as well so that real co-op can be had with this mode.

It seems with a lot of stuff from BIS they do a really good job 90% of the way there but never finish the 10%. My guess unless some of these issues are worked out we won't see many if any of these type of missions. And that is a shame.

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

Seems to have major issues with respawn. I keep responding out in the middle of the dry lake bed in the middle of enemy territory.

---------- Post added at 22:32 ---------- Previous post was at 22:29 ----------

Is it possible to use this gamemode but not necessarily be completed tied to a hell support role? For example, it would be nice to actually participate in the ground war at times. This would also necessitate the ability to get out of a heli when one wanted to. Is there really any good reason to keep you locked in the heli? I can't think of one. Be nice to have human co-pilots as well so that real co-op can be had with this mode.

It seems with a lot of stuff from BIS they do a really good job 90% of the way there but never finish the 10%. My guess unless some of these issues are worked out we won't see many if any of these type of missions. And that is a shame.

Or you could just mash together Support and Sector Control missions to create a similar concept to what you are proposing. Humans on teh ground alongside AI fighting while there are human pilots running the support missions.

[delta99 34]

Or you could just mash together Support and Sector Control missions to create a similar concept to what you are proposing. Humans on teh ground alongside AI fighting while there are human pilots running the support missions.

That might be an idea Pete but again I bring up the 10% not finished. All they need to do is relax some of the hardened rules which again I have no idea why they are there in the first place.

[delta99 34]

Or you could just mash together Support and Sector Control missions to create a similar concept to what you are proposing. Humans on teh ground alongside AI fighting while there are human pilots running the support missions.

I just tried this and it looks like it's not going to work. I added separate playable units and groups that are not synced to any modules or anything to do with MP Support. HOWEVER, they somehow are tied to it. I took a vehicle out and disembarked and it thought the vehicle was destroyed and I lost control of my group and was respawned.

So, unless BIS gives us some additional options it looks like we are stuck in the support role and that is it. No real flexibility unfortunately.

[fn_Quiksilver 1633]

That might be an idea Pete but again I bring up the 10% not finished. All they need to do is relax some of the hardened rules which again I have no idea why they are there in the first place.

This is perhaps for stability.

Sometimes if you introduce a feature and there is a requirement for it to be stable, you want to block off access to areas with lots of variability, unknowns and potential bugs.

[ethrendil 11]

I just tried this and it looks like it's not going to work. I added separate playable units and groups that are not synced to any modules or anything to do with MP Support. HOWEVER, they somehow are tied to it. I took a vehicle out and disembarked and it thought the vehicle was destroyed and I lost control of my group and was respawned.

So, unless BIS gives us some additional options it looks like we are stuck in the support role and that is it. No real flexibility unfortunately.

It's doable. I've been playing a custom support mission for the past several weeks that allows players to get in and out of helos and still run the support missions. There are a few things you have to compromise on, but overall it's a ton of fun.

The main way to get it working is to turn off respawns. If you run a server you can have multiple player positions and just leave and re-enter the game as a new player, but the only way I have found to keep the support module from killing you when you get out of your helo is to disable respawns.

Also none of the players or helos should be synced to the base module, otherwise you will be killed when you get out of your helo, or locked inside.

Other than that the only things that don't work properly are the re-supply, medevac, and rearm/repair landing pads. My fixes for that are to create a dedicated chopper to run supply requests. This chopper is synced to the base module and players can enter/exit at the base. It is used just to run some supplies and return to base. Medevac works fine picking up soldiers, but to deliver them I need to land back at base and use Zeus to make the wounded unit disembark. You then get the points just like normal. And lastly I just use a rearm/repair script on a landing pad back at base.

If anyone is interested I have the mission I use here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j31kqtris8jczxj/groundsupport_alive.Altis.pbo?dl=0

It requires ALiVE and it might also require the NATOHellcats mod (not sure what version this is). ALiVE is used mostly just to provide a CAS and Transport chopper on call with a laser designator in case you get stranded on the map after you get shot down.

[kremator 1064]

Excellent Ethrendil. Will check it out later on. Would be interesting to get ALiVE generating the battlefield too.

[BennetArms 1]

I "found out" that the Base (with its own Area Option) searches for PlayableUnits and if one playable Unit is outside that perimeter, it gets teleported back. I'd suggest, setting Base-Area (The Base-Module) to 20000. But no Luck with the locked Choppers so far.

That Respawn issue is really a pain in the back, but removing the NATO-Side from the mission isn't enough. Played it yesterday with the clan, but no respawn-issue occured. Strange...

And NATO gets shown as a side still.

Edited December 15, 2014 by BennetArms

[delta99 34]

This is perhaps for stability.

Sometimes if you introduce a feature and there is a requirement for it to be stable, you want to block off access to areas with lots of variability, unknowns and potential bugs.

Not in this case in my opinion. They are unnecessarily locking features down if you ask me. Which actually means more code, more complication and the possibility of introducing more bugs :)

[fn_Quiksilver 1633]

Not in this case in my opinion. They are unnecessarily locking features down if you ask me. Which actually means more code, more complication and the possibility of introducing more bugs :)

hmm perhaps

for now, with what info I have available, i disagree.

If Warko had tested extensively the helicopter game mechanics but not spent time on the player infantry mechanics, then it makes perfect sense to limit the ability to use the unfinished and untested gameplay mechanic.

[delta99 34]

hmm perhaps

for now, with what info I have available, i disagree.

If Warko had tested extensively the helicopter game mechanics but not spent time on the player infantry mechanics, then it makes perfect sense to limit the ability to use the unfinished and untested gameplay mechanic.

Its more likely that it was a design decision that wasn't fully thought out and now everything is baked in to lock you into the role of a pilot and that is it.

BIS can simply respond here if they wanted to considering this is the feedback thread. Be interested to see if they are planning to open things up with it or not.

[warkonaut 133]

Hello guys. Regarding the question why the player's role in MP Support is limited to pilot only and why the player cannot freely leave the helicopter or base and play the MP Support as infantry is simple. The MP gamemode was created for the Helicopters DLC and that's why we wanted to put max focus on helicopter piloting and engagements.

We were considering making the new MP gamemode more of a combined arms, where everyone can take any role, but for obvious reasons it didn't feel right for the Helicopters DLC. We decided to focus on content the DLC was meant to promote and showcase there the new helicopters and tech - the advanced flight model. This allowed us also to add the two cores systems:

1. system for autonomous AI groups that can play the Sector Control by their own and call for request according to the real events on battlefield
   
2. system of dynamic tasks/requests
   

Basically if we wanted to do the MP gamemode that will showcase the helicopters flying in the detail we wanted, we had to cut the other possibilities and risk. Otherwise we could not do it, not to that extend in and that time-frame.

But what we could do, is to separate the code into package that is tight to the MP Support and the package that can be used anywhere else. For that reason I created two families of modules:

1. Support - 2 modules located in Modules\Gameplay Modes\
   
2. Spawn AI - 4 modules located in Modules\Misc\
   

Functionality covered in Support modules (Support, Support: Base) is exclusive to the MP Support gamemode. Those 2 modules cover the dynamic tasks/requests and set the rules of the MP Support, like respawning of the vehicles and players, their setup, helicopter resupply etc.. If you want to create more open and sandboxy sector control, you don't want to use those modules.

The Spawn AI module family is quite sandbox and it basically gives you a tool to dynamically spawn groups of units in any mission and execute your own script on them. If you want to make them play sector control, you can use the Spawn AI: Sector Tactics module, that does the job for you - it automatically replaces the custom script.

If I understood correctly what you want to achieve, I suggest to take the MP Support example mission, delete all Support and Support: Base modules and write you own respawn and other rules. This way you will have sector control with autonomous AI groups and still have full control over the rules of the mission (no vehicle locking etc.).

Hope this helps.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Warkonaut

[kremator 1064]

Thanks for the explanation Warkonaut!

[delta99 34]

But what we could do, is to separate the code into package that is tight to the MP Support and the package that can be used anywhere else. For that reason I created two families of modules:

1. Support - 2 modules located in Modules\Gameplay Modes\
   
2. Spawn AI - 4 modules located in Modules\Gameplay Modes\
   

Functionality covered in Support modules (Support, Support: Base) is exclusive to the MP Support gamemode. Those 2 modules cover the dynamic tasks/requests and set the rules of the MP Support, like respawning of the vehicles and players, their setup, helicopter resupply etc.. If you want to create more open and sandboxy sector control, you don't want to use those modules.

The Spawn AI module family is quite sandbox and it basically gives you a tool to dynamically spawn groups of units in any mission and execute your own script on them. If you want to make them play sector control, you can use the Spawn AI: Sector Tactics module, that does the job for you - it automatically replaces the custom script.

If I understood correctly what you want to achieve, I suggest to take the MP Support example mission, delete all Support and Support: Base modules and write you own respawn and other rules. This way you will have sector control with autonomous AI groups and still have full control over the rules of the mission (no vehicle locking etc.).

Hope this helps.

Warkonaut, really appreciate the response here.

Is there documentation on how to do this with just the Spawn modules? Maybe none required as maybe everything is pretty straight forward by doing like you say, take MP Support mission and delete all the Support stuff leaving just the Spawn/AI stuff.

Although what I do like is the generation of the support tasks. I just don't want to be tied to doing them all the time or at least have some flexibility. In other words one could take a ground role while others stick with the helicopters. It would be great if they inserted human teams and AI teams. That kind of thing.

Another big issue is the documentation for the MP Support stuff on the Wiki is incomplete and doesn't get one to a working support mission. It would be great and really helpful to have that updated plus documentation for these other modules.

I think BIS has a LOT of modules in there that would come in super handy for mission makers but because there is virtually no documentation and everything is basically trial and error people give up pretty quickly and get frustrated.

[ethrendil 11]

Is there any chance we could get the option to use custom factions on the spawn AI module?

[sgtpepper 11]

Another big issue is the documentation for the MP Support stuff on the Wiki is incomplete and doesn't get one to a working support mission. It would be great and really helpful to have that updated plus documentation for these other modules.

I also think that more detailed documentation would be helpful but I built a support mission following the wiki documentation and it is running. I uploaded it yesterday to my steam workshop so lets hope it also works for other people :D

[hansen111 12]

Best mission seen so far on helo support missions, but Why oh why did you exclude the possibility of having a few AI pilot slots, just 1 slot for ai for taking out a few enemy vehicles would make a lot of difference. Most importantly, is it true i cant find the mission file anywhere? is this encrypted epo files? Please BI do not continue down this road, there is no Huron or any buyable dlc content that needs protection here, you effectly Lock out the possibilities of mission builders learning and making great edits the community wants, this behavior goes against everything i love about arma!

Edited January 18, 2015 by Hansen111

[fn_Quiksilver 1633]

Most importantly, is it true i cant find the mission file anywhere? is this encrypted epo files? Please BI do not continue down this road, there is no Huron or any buyable dlc content that needs protection here, you effectly Lock out the possibilities of mission builders learning and making great edits the community wants, this behavior goes against everything i love about arma!

It is common for an author to protect the work until its finished and polished. IMO should be the sole decision of the author, community should not have the right or ability to coerce the release of content. If Warko wants to release, IMO should be on his terms not mine :)

This is not just gaming. Look at George RR Martin with Game of Thrones. Should he release his WIP so others can see it and write their own similar stories using his ideas? I think they should have to wait until he's happy to publish ... And he thinks that too! He writes all his stuff on a non-networked computer, to protect his IP from hackers, thieves and whatnot until he's good and ready to have the full thing on store shelves.

Back to A3 Support gamemode ..

I think the idea is a good one (not great, but good), since it pulls the player back to a distance where we cannot see some of the weaknesses of AI, yet we can see a battlefield. We are usually 50-200m from the fighting, so our minds have hard trouble breaking the immersion. Fighting on the ground beside AI, can break the immersion quickly once we see how they behave at micro level, in different ways than player. So it is a good idea and I hope it is Warko who expands on his idea, not someone else, at least for a time.

[delta99 34]

I also think that more detailed documentation would be helpful but I built a support mission following the wiki documentation and it is running. I uploaded it yesterday to my steam workshop so lets hope it also works for other people :D

I pointed out the problems with the Wiki documentation so maybe somebody fixed it.

[UberRogue 0]

I actually found the MP Support Guideline wiki trying to figure out something I wanted to try with sectors. The few people I play with actually like them too and this is an awesome game type. Some things that were wrong with the wiki were the respawns and syncing them with the tactic module. 

 

Originally I had the bases setup with the default size. I could not find any information on it and following the guideline I had everything setup. Immediately upon respawn, I would respawn in the ocean somewhere. I double checked everything and eventually named the Respawn Position module (one for the players) to respawn_west and respawn_east respectively. That should be noted in the wiki. The other respawn issue is having the Respawn Position Module in the base area of influence as I call it. Only way I could figure out the borders was dropping a trigger and resizing both axis to what I had the base size to. Once the Respawn Position module was in the circle it all started working. So some sort of visual cue on the base size would have been nice and a better explanation of what has to be in there.

 

Any AI that is supposed to go capturing the sectors needs to be synced to a Spawn AI module. Then I had to sync the spawn AI modules to the Sector Tactics module even though the wiki says you do not have to. If you don't the AI just stand around.

 

Resupply tasks don't appear to be working. There was no mention of it from the wiki as far as any equipment being needed. Manually dropping a cargo net on the map in the editor allowed me to do one supply drop however I was under the impression that the resupply cargo would be spawned at a resupply point or maintenance area as the game calls it. I also tried syncing the Cargo Net (Empty > Ammo > Cargo Net) to Base module and Resupply Area to no effect. I can possibly work around this by having a trigger detect when the original cargo net is not in its area and spawn a new one.