Bush is pushing too far

[LauryThorn 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Burl @ Sep. 20 2002,18:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1.) Ok.. let me clarify...  The Al Qaeda doesn't like:

Americans

American Lifestyle

Any non-Islamic religion

Sooooo.... they start a campaign of bombing buildings, ships, etc...  trying to eliminate the "infidels" also as known as Americans and this campaign will last until every one us gone. After that they will switch to "lesser infidels" such as Brits,Russians,Canadians, etc..etc..

2.) You guys got me on the grocery store..  I'll work on another idea...

3.)  Saddam..  in my opinion..  has been as is currently seeking groups including Al Qaeda to carry out missions against "infidels" and suppling them with training, materials, etc.  I have no evidence to support this, but I'm certain that we may have some in the future.

4.) Ok..  fire away...

Burl

 <span id='postcolor'>

Many muslims feel that US started the war by invading their holy ground in Saudi-Arabia etc.

As the biggest christian country in the world (?) the US should consider other ways of

defeating their enemy, than bombing them, and planning to kill Saddam and so on.

OK, it's stupid and naivé to think that some country would actually have some principles, I agree..

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Burl @ Sep. 20 2002,18:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you saying the answer is to sit back and take a "wait and see what happens" stance?<span id='postcolor'>

Are you saying the answer is to bomb the hell out of any country which you think may be a threat? Think about it, in essense, this is not much different than the F-16 pilots who bombed the Canadian soldiers because they thought they were being fired upon...only this is on an international level.

[KingBeast 0]

Bush is only just catching onto the concept that was ever so popular with us Europeans about 900 years ago or so. Crusades to the middle east

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ Sep. 20 2002,19:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bush is only just catching onto  the concept that was ever so popular with us Europeans about 900 years ago or so. Crusades to the middle east  <span id='postcolor'>

"It's evolution baby!"

Its sad though, all this time they justify their plan for war saying Saddam won't let the inspectors back in. Now Saddam says they can come back, and the US dismisses it and continues on a war path. I'm not defending Saddam, I'll be glad when he's gone, but this attack IMO would not be justified, the whole pre-emptive pretense is BS, and once again iraqi civilians will suffer most.

[Sam Samson 0]

well, truth is saddam said he'll let inspectors in and the next day the general secretary of the arab league backpedaled and conveyed the message that this access is restricted to military sites.

in the months before 911 the US services had fragments of info about a pending flea-attack (terror) on the US and did nothing. thousands died.

now they have info just like that on iraq. the prez can't decide to do nothing and risk another attack.

imagine hussein gets some religious fanatics to act as his dupes in delivering some of his botulinum into a water reservoir or anthrax into the air. he'll be a one term prez for sure then.

and besides: iraq ignored some 16 UN resolutions for four years. yet after some saber rattling by W the dictator caved in like his army did 10 years ago.

one word of bush was worth more than reams and reams of UN paper.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 20 2002,19:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">in the months before 911 the US services had fragments of info about a pending flea-attack (terror) on the US and did nothing. thousands died.

now they have info just like that on iraq. the prez can't decide to do nothing and risk another attack.

imagine hussein gets some religious fanatics to act as his dupes in delivering some of his botulinum into a water reservoir or anthrax into the air. he'll be a one term prez for sure then.<span id='postcolor'>

You are assuming that the President has evidence. You can talk about operational security all you want, but wouldnt someone being thrashed in the international press, and by the governments of the world (if you exclude Brown Nose..I mean Blair) wouldnt you want to have a few secure sessions with the leaders of the countries you want to support you, and show them some of this evidence? Not gonna happen...because the evidence is either non existant, or so thin that he's afraid to show it.

I am still amazed at the hubris shown by people who have made a demand, and then when the demand is agreed on, they STILL try to push for a war. Bush made a demand, and Hussein called his bluff. Now Bush is showing who the more serious terrorist is.

Bush wants a war for two reasons:

a) To give the people of his nation something else to think about other than their stagnating economy.

b) Oil. He's seen what kind of opposition there is from tree huggers when you talk about ddrilling in Alaska, so why not creat ecological nightmares half way around the world. Out of sight, out of mind. Or the more classic NIMBY.

[Sam Samson 0]

no, warin.

by now I feel like ignoring the prose.

I figure that you guys don't like bush for the single and solitary reason that he's a right of center president.

if clinton would be in his position you would all be sucking up to him (pardon the pun)

it 's hard to conduct dialectic dialog when your opposite argues out of a gut full of passion without a lick o' sense.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Burl @ Sep. 20 2002,11:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1.) Ok.. let me clarify... The Al Qaeda doesn't like:

Americans

American Lifestyle

Any non-Islamic religion<span id='postcolor'>

NO, NO AND NO!

This is what you have been lead to believe.

Take it from the mouth of Usama Bin Laden. Al-quada do not hate Americans, but their government and the poeple supporting it's international policies. They hate the American Government because it causes thousands of deaths and billions in losses to Muslim Middle Eastern countires, and because the American Government funds the ongoing fight in Israel, and supports Jews. American forces have not left the middle east alon in a long time.

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Sep. 20 2002,20:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Burl @ Sep. 20 2002,11:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1.) Ok.. let me clarify...  The Al Qaeda doesn't like:

Americans

American Lifestyle

Any non-Islamic religion<span id='postcolor'>

NO, NO AND NO!

This is what you have been lead to believe.

Take it from the mouth of Usama Bin Laden.  Al-quada do not hate Americans, but their government and the poeple supporting it's international policies.  They hate the American Government because it causes thousands of deaths and billions in losses to Muslim Middle Eastern countires, and because the American Government funds the ongoing fight in Israel, and supports Jews.  American forces have not left the middle east alon in a long time.<span id='postcolor'>

see?

just what I was talking about.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Burl @ Sep. 20 2002,08:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1.) Bush is not a mad man, he is only concerned with preventing further attacks by terrorist whether the target is the US,England,Isreal,etc..etc...

2.) The UN has had over ten years to make the Iraqis comply with the surrender terms of the "Gulf War".<span id='postcolor'>

1. Bush is probably the third anti christ, until now I thoguht it was Saddam. (you like my view?)

Exactly what is your problem with Iraq currently, it has only responded to threats from the US, no threats of any invasions since the war. We have all sorts of imaging satelites tracking their every move... there is plenty of time for the US to defend itself upon Iraq starting an attack.

The UN has successfully made Saddam 10 years older without letting him invade anything.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 20 2002,14:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Sep. 20 2002,20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Burl @ Sep. 20 2002,11:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1.) Ok.. let me clarify... The Al Qaeda doesn't like:

Americans

American Lifestyle

Any non-Islamic religion<span id='postcolor'>

NO, NO AND NO!

This is what you have been lead to believe.

Take it from the mouth of Usama Bin Laden. Al-quada do not hate Americans, but their government and the poeple supporting it's international policies. They hate the American Government because it causes thousands of deaths and billions in losses to Muslim Middle Eastern countires, and because the American Government funds the ongoing fight in Israel, and supports Jews. American forces have not left the middle east alon in a long time.<span id='postcolor'>

see?

just what I was talking about.

<!--emo&<span id='postcolor'>

Listen SAM... you are sriously getting on my nerves. This is what USAMA told the US! Is there something you do NOT understand?

[Tovarish 0]

...alright now....lets not start flaming....an open thread is a good thread

[Burl 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The UN has successfully made Saddam 10 years older without letting him invade anything.<span id='postcolor'>

Am I missing something here?

Burl

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Burl @ Sep. 20 2002,20:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The UN has successfully made Saddam 10 years older without letting him invade anything.<span id='postcolor'>

Am I missing something here?<span id='postcolor'>

What has saddam done in the past 10 years after the Gulf War? Dick all. He's talked BS about American and Zionist "demons", but he's kept his hands to himself

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Burl @ Sep. 20 2002,14:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The UN has successfully made Saddam 10 years older without letting him invade anything.<span id='postcolor'>

Am I missing something here?

Burl<span id='postcolor'>

Probably not, is there something that doesn't make sense?

I mean, Hussein is not a young man, he is 10 years older and has not been able to strike at anyone because of the UN.

[KingBeast 0]

I think its far too common for American, or perhaps even western belief, that countries in the middle east are just dusty slums with no civilisation. No coke, no pepsi, no newspapers. Barren wasteland filled with angry natives, jealous of the tempting fruits of western civilisation. Damn those westerners with their chips! Damn them, we shall bring them down into flaming ruin.

Did I mention my first meal in Egypt was Steak and Chips?

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 20 2002,20:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

no, warin.

by now I feel like ignoring the prose.

I figure that you guys don't like bush for the single and solitary reason that he's a right of center president.

if clinton would be in his position you would all be sucking up to him (pardon the pun)  

it 's hard to conduct dialectic dialog when your opposite argues out of a gut full of passion without a lick o' sense.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, if this was Gore (Couldnt be Slick Willy, he managed to serve is two terms) I would be shouting just as loud. It doesnt have to do with which side of center you are on.

You might not believe it, but I hover right of center. If it werent for the fact I believe in social responsibility, I'd be even farther right. What I dont believe in is what Bush is doing. He's manufacturing a crisis to start a war. And that is never right. It all comes to this:

If you have a verifiable proof of Iraqi WMD and the determination to use them against another nation (And that can be ANY nation, not just the west) then present it. At that point, I will stop calling Bush a warmonger and a threat to world security.

[Burl 0]

Is there a good place in the region for cheese burgers?

Burl

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ Sep. 20 2002,20:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think its far too common for American, or perhaps even western belief, that countries in the middle east are just dusty slums with no civilisation. No coke, no pepsi, no newspapers. Barren wasteland filled with angry natives, jealous of the tempting fruits of western civilisation. Damn those westerners with their chips! Damn them, we shall bring them down into flaming ruin.

Did I mention my first meal in Egypt was Steak and Chips?  <span id='postcolor'>

Bravo!

Not everyone wants to live like we do in the west.  And it's just arrogance to assume that we need one homogenous culture around the whole world.  And even more arrogant is the assumption that OUR way is the best way.

I love my culture and my way of life.  I love that I have the money I need to spend on totally pointless things (I am going to spend $200 today on a graphite shaft pool cue ).  I am not religious, so I dont believe in  a more austere life style as demanded by certain faith systems.  That is my right.  Why cant we accpet the rights of other people to chose to live thei lives the way they want.  Some people assume the islamic nations want the destruction of the west.  That attitude comes from nearly 1000 years of 'The West' trying to convert those same islamic nations to christianity.  Maybe if we start respecting their cultures and their way of life, they wont feel the need to hate us any more.  But no, that's too rational, isnt it?  

[Aaron Kane 0]

I learned how most of the world feels about the US pretty much from these forums. It really opened my eyes.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Sep. 20 2002,14:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Maybe if we start respecting their cultures and their way of life, they wont feel the need to hate us any more. But no, that's too rational <span id='postcolor'>

Yep too rational. It can be very un-nerving to look at it that way though.

I mean it's not a simple matter, but I believe in what Warin says.

[Burl 0]

Kind of reminds me of American history, you know, the part where we "escorted" the British from North America.

Burl

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Burl @ Sep. 20 2002,20:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Kind of reminds me of American history, you know, the part where we "escorted" the British from North America.

Burl<span id='postcolor'>

what it has to do with the actual discussion ?

[bn880 5]

Probably that Americans were publically not liked at that time, just like now. I think.

[KingBeast 0]

I am confused