Bush is pushing too far

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (edc @ Sep. 20 2002,23:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Heres a nice reference for ya!  

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/cw/program.htm<span id='postcolor'>

No shit sherlock! That is chemical weapons. They were used by both sides in the Iran-Iraq war. That's nothing new.

You claimed to know that Iraq today is developing nuclear weapons. So where is your proof?

Edit: The fact that Iraq has had chemical weapons for almost 20 years now shows if anything that it doesn't imply that he will use them for attacking the world.

[edc 0]

http://www.nci.org/s/sad-new-bomb-st-122400.htm

Excerps from a congressional hearing in Iraq:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">REP. GILMAN: Major Ritter, in your September 3rd testimony, you asserted that it would take 10 years for Iraq to have an -- operable nuclear weapons if it had to reconstitute its own fissile material production program. I am going to ask you now, how long would it take Iraq to activate its nuclear weapons if it obtained the needed fissile material from the black market or any other source? How many sets of potential weapons does Iraq have at the present time?

MAJOR RITTER: Mr. Chairman, that question really needs to be answered by a nuclear weapons design specialist because the fissile material - it depends on what form the fissile material is when Iraq obtains it, what kind of machining it has to do to get it down to the proper core size. There are a number of technical issues at stake there.

What I have indicated in the past is that the special commission had received sensitive information of some credibility, which indicated that Iraq had the components to assemble three implosion- type devices, minus the fissile material, and that if Iraq were able to obtain fissile material of the quality and of the proper physical properties conducive to such a weapon, then they could assemble three nuclear devices in a very short period of time.

Later in the testimony

REP. GILMAN: Major, one last question. You mentioned a "short period of time." Would that be weeks, months, years? What would you define as a short period of time?

MAJOR RITTER: If the components of the implosion device are operational, if they have not been damaged through moving them around the country and hiding them from the inspection teams, and the fissile core is of the correct properties, it's a matter of days, maybe weeks before they could be assembled into a device.

<span id='postcolor'>

Another link:

http://www.nci.org/a/60min2-Iraq.htm

Thats two Iraqi scientists-nobody would know better than them(except for Saddam himself)

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (edc @ Sep. 20 2002,23:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">http://www.nci.org/s/sad-new-bomb-st-122400.htm<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, yes very relieable. A one source story from a guy who claims to have been a design engineer for the iraqi nuclear program.

Why can't Bush or Blair produce any evidence today? Any at all?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> had received sensitive information of some credibility<span id='postcolor'>

Could it be more vague?

[Guest]

http://www.newsday.com/news....utility

[KingBeast 0]

edc you sound ever so slightly brain washed, first you went a bit wild in claiming that europe is further away from Iraq than US and that the US has had more terrorist incidents than europe, and now you are trying to convince yourself that saddam is your enemy. Saddam may be a bastard, but he has never targeted the US as such and its likely that he doesnt have the ability to do so anyhow. If you want to look for bad men that are a risk to America with nuclear weapons, write an essay on why America should go to war with China.

[edc 0]

I think we should look at punishing China with maybe a few sanctions.  But thats exactly what we want to keep Iraq from becoming-a country who is virtually invunerable(since they have nukes) and has a far less than competant leader.  I did not claim that Europe is closer to Iraq than the US.  But you can't argue with the fact that the US is higher on Saddams 'hit list' that Europe.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No shit sherlock! That is chemical weapons. They were used by both sides in the Iran-Iraq war. That's nothing new.

<span id='postcolor'>

Read the sixth and seventh paragraphs.

[KingBeast 0]

You are speaking of a country that is virtually invulnerable and has an incompetent leader? hmm ill keep my mouth shut

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ Sep. 21 2002,00:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You are speaking of a country that is virtually invulnerable and has an incompetent leader? hmm ill keep my mouth shut <span id='postcolor'>

Lol

[Aaron Kane 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Sep. 20 2002,23:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (edc @ Sep. 20 2002,23:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Why can't Bush or Blair produce any evidence today? Any at all?<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

Dont worry Denoir, we're suddenly going to find some shred information at the last moment was mysteriously overlooked that justifies bombing. I guarantee it

[Rhubarbman 0]

Mods bashing countires.

[KingBeast 0]

Yes mods bashing countries. Just like I bash every country including my country. You want to tell me where you are from? Ill bash your country aswell you little punk

Stop trying to stir....

[edc 0]

Has anyone bothered to read the 6th/7th paragrahs? Or did you and you're just ignoring it because it says something you don't like?

[Rhubarbman 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ Sep. 21 2002,00:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes mods bashing countries. Just like I bash every country including my country. You want to tell me where you are from? Ill bash your country aswell you little punk  

Stop trying to stir....<span id='postcolor'>

I remember the old days when there where no mods and u where still an asshole.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (edc @ Sep. 21 2002,00:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Has anyone bothered to read the 6th/7th paragrahs?  Or did you and you're just ignoring it because it says something you don't like?  <span id='postcolor'>

In the FAS report? I'm not sure what you are talking about. There is no mention of nukes there

[edc 0]

I not talking about nukes I'm talking about the Chemical attack on the Khurds that you said didn't happen.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Rhubarbman @ Sep. 21 2002,00:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I remember the old days when there where no mods and u where still an asshole.<span id='postcolor'>

Translation: I would like to take a 48h break from posting at these forums.

No problem. I'll arrange it right away!

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (edc @ Sep. 21 2002,00:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I not talking about nukes I'm talking about the Chemical attack on the Khurds that you said didn't happen.<span id='postcolor'>

Well,

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Saddam Hussein's forces reportedly killed hundreds of Iraqi Kurds with chemical agents <span id='postcolor'>

Reportedly is not really the strongest formulation possible, but ok, sure. What difference does it make? Both Iran and Iraq used them against each other during their war...

[edc 0]

It makes a difference because Saddam purposely attacked innocent civilians. And also it was his own people not the Iranians that he attacked. Just out of curiosity if two Iraqi scientist can't convince you that Iraq is developing nuclear weapons what will. Also the CIA could have tons of evidence that is being kept secret so we won't reveal our sources. If we do then we could loose a very valuable capability to get info on what Iraq is doing. Another reason-logic. He was developing nukes before the gulf war. He has expressed a lot of interest in obtaining nuclear weapons, so one would assume that he would be developing them since theres nothing to stop him.

PS I think 48hr. suspention might be a little harsh.

[Tovarish 0]

Ok so let's say that Iraq has shown it is capable and willing to use chemical weapons in warfare. The American argument here seems to be that any country that shows willingness to use such horrible and destructive weapons should be bombed back to the stone age by "civilized" countries. Ok, let us also say that is a reasonable argument.

Now take this into consideration: The USA is the only country in the world to have shown a definite willingness and capability to use nuclear weapons in warfare.

Would you Americans apply the same logic to this case?

I thought not.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (edc @ Sep. 21 2002,00:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">PS I think 48hr. suspention might be a little harsh.<span id='postcolor'>

Calling a moderator an asshole and giving him a 48 hr suspension is supposed to be harsh

I don't know where you are from and how you have been brought up, but my mummy and daddy always used to hit me when I swore

Swearing is for people with a limited vocabulary and a limited ability to express themselves

[edc 0]

The two times we used nuclear weapons saved countless allied and Japanese lives by enabling us to not invade mainland Japan.  It was the best of the two evils.  I don't think we should "bomb them back to the stone age", I think we should take out Saddam, his cabinet (or what ever its called), the Republican Guards units, and his ability to manufacter WMD along with all the bio/chem weapons he already has.  I think that we do not want to use nuclear weapons.  The rest of the world would critisize us, not a lot of people in the US would support it, and it would also cause a lot of needless deaths

I may be wrong but I think he might of ment it in a funny sense. I can see him getting suspended but I think 12/24 hours would more than get the point across.

[KingBeast 0]

There are less responsible countries that are nucelar capable just remember that. So its no excuse to go after someone on the grounds that he "might" have nuclear weapons and "may possibly" use them "one day"

[edc 0]

I would doubt that if Saddam had a nuclear weapon he would just wait for us to see it on a satelite and bomb it. He would use it as soon as he could.

[KingBeast 0]

And im sure if the Welsh had the nuclear bomb, they would use it too. But they dont, so whats the problem? Perhaps Britain should marh into wales and bombs Cardiff all in the name of prevention. You see, you cannot go to war with someone on the grounds that "they might do something" or "they would do something if they got the chance"

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (edc @ Sep. 21 2002,00:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The two times we used nuclear weapons saved countless allied and Japanese lives by enabling us to not invade mainland Japan.  It was the best of the two evils. <span id='postcolor'>

So what's the beef? by that logic, any weapons of mass destrucion Saddam might have would "save lives" in the event of war. Face it, you bombed two cities. Not airfields, not military bases, not factories. Cities. And then you go and speak of your enemies who commit terrorism and target civilians.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would doubt that if Saddam had a nuclear weapon he would just wait for us to see it on a satelite and bomb it.  He would use it as soon as he could.<span id='postcolor'>

Do you truly think he has such a deathwish? He's just a petty dictator who wants to stay in power. Your government and media have turned him into a nuclear/biological boogeyman. I lived in Cuba and Russia, I know propaganda when I see it.

*edit* I'd love to stay and discuss longer but it's Friday night and I'm going for a few drinks. Here's hoping this thread isn't locked by tomorrow