Russian ( Armed Forces ) harassment of the Nordics.

[x3kj 1247]

A recession in Europe is the single greatest threat to the American economy

Then why is/was Greece actively destabilized over years on purpose? And with it the entire EU zone. And this is no speculation, its a fact. A recession in europe is not the single greates threat... the single greatest threat for american economy, judging by their foreign politics, is having no war.

Europe's Governments are getting completely undermined by US. Currently there is an "expert committee" (that means nobody else has a word to say/is allowed to get information) debating about removing the possibility for the german parliament to veto against use of german armed forces. Behind closed curtains obviously, you will find no word in the media about this. That means if NATO General says they want to fight this war, german government has no right to refuse to send troops. Additionally, they try to enforce free trade pact which means that american courts are allowed to make cases in germany using american law, bypassing all german laws. Again no word on this aspect of the pact.

[oxmox 73]

Then why is/was Greece actively destabilized over years on purpose? And with it the entire EU zone. And this is no speculation, its a fact. A recession in europe is not the single greates threat... the single greatest threat for american economy, judging by their foreign politics, is having no war.

Europe's Governments are getting completely undermined by US. Currently there is an "expert committee" (that means nobody else has a word to say/is allowed to get information) debating about removing the possibility for the german parliament to veto against use of german armed forces. Behind closed curtains obviously, you will find no word in the media about this. That means if NATO General says they want to fight this war, german government has no right to refuse to send troops. Additionally, they try to enforce free trade pact which means that american courts are allowed to make cases in germany using american law, bypassing all german laws. Again no word on this aspect of the pact.

Hi, could you please post a german press release about discussions to remove any opposition against the use of Bundeswehr deployments. Iam just interesting to read about it since I have not seen this yet - thx.

Edited November 3, 2014 by oxmox

[x3kj 1247]

There is basically no real press release. Only left-wing / "pacifist movement" sites cover this, but there is no clear information that i can find so far. The Law's name is "Parlamentsbeteiligungsgesetz". Maybe you will find more recent/detailed info if you do some real research. The abolition of this law was discussed already in 2004 (Plenum log).

Do you speak/understand spoken german? Ex-defence secretary (Kohl era) Willy Wimmer , ex OSCE member and long time foreign politic expert is very open about the current situations and gives very interesting insights into older conflicts and also about the ukraine conflict. He is in the CDU party - one of the 2 biggest german parties, not some small far right/leftwing party.

interview with Ken Jebsen. I wish there where english subtitles on this, it's very interesting to the ukraine/nordic topic.

Speech about dismantling of German Parliament Power about Army and the situation of dismantling of UNO & OSCE

Note that the inverviewer Ken Jebsen is vilified in mainstream media as "nazi activist". He was kicked from his newspaper because of "rightwing ideologies". Propably because he critically investigated Israel politics (amongst other global problems). :j: An increasingly common trend as soon as there is any critical voice that holds weight. He worked 25years for all kinds of mainstream media... and suddenly he converted to beeing a nazi. Very plausible

Edited November 5, 2014 by Fennek

[mistyronin 1181]

Can we focus on the subject of the thread, Russian invasions and aggressions in the Baltics?

There's another thread about European politics, where you can talk about "Western puppeteers", European illuminati and other conspiracy theories.

---------- Post added at 18:42 ---------- Previous post was at 17:20 ----------

( The Guardian ) Finland warns of new cold war over failure to grasp situation in Russia

"The Finnish way of dealing with Russia, whatever the situation, is that we will be very decisive to show what we don’t like, where the red line is. And that is what we are prepared to do,†Niinistö said, referring to a recent spate of violations of Finnish airspace by Russian military aircraft.

“We put the Hornets [uS-made Finnish air force F-18 fighter aircraft] up there and the Hornets were flying alongside the Russian planes … The Russians turned back. If they had not, what would we have done? I would not speculate.â€

For Russia, Syria was only the latest example of perceived western weakness, an influential government insider in Helsinki said.

“A bigger factor is the consistent softness shown by the EU and the US when it comes to Russian actions. They [the Russians] have got away with murder since the first Chechen war and especially since [the Russian military intervention in] Georgia [in 2008],†the insider said.

Despite the rise in international tensions with Russia, a clear majority of Finns continues to oppose joining Nato, in part out of concern about Moscow’s possible reaction. Russian officials have repeatedly warned Finland, which is 100% dependent on Russian gas supplies, against taking up Nato membership.

[x3kj 1247]

Well i'm sorry but you just can't discuss this topic without discussing everything in context. It makes no sense. If you detach it like that, you could also question why US is "harrassing" Iraqi/Syrian "people" with airattacks atm. If we wouldnt have the ukraine situation we wouldnt have russian jets flying over the baltics.

They [the Russians] have got away with murder since the first Chechen war and especially since [the Russian military intervention in] Georgia [in 2008],†the insider said.

They [NATO] have gotten away with murder and invasion even before Jugoslavia and Iraq [amongst others]. And everybody knows the last one was a constructed case.

And its obvious that Russia doesnt want the Nordics not to be a part of NATO. Russia doesnt want NATO next to its borders, because it wouldnt stand a single chance in a conventionall war against NATO. And currently (and that is the stated goal of NATO policy) is to expand its territory right up close to the russian border. This includes ukraine and if you think the nordics wouldnt be part of this goal then i cant help you. That's why media is making a bogeyman of putin/russia, to feed this idea to the masses.

This was paramount in foreign politics during 90's (unification of germany and collapse of sovietunion), to not expand nato so russia doesnt get threatened, to preserve peace on the European continent. Now it shifted and the US ignores their pact they agreed to.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Fennek

[Tonci87 163]

Well i'm sorry but you just can't discuss this topic without discussing everything in context. It makes no sense. If you detach it like that, you could also question why US is "harrassing" Iraqi/Syrian "people" with airattacks atm. If we wouldnt have the ukraine situation we wouldnt have russian jets flying over the baltics.

They [NATO] have gotten away with murder and invasion even before Jugoslavia and Iraq [amongst others]. And everybody knows the last one was a constructed case.

And its obvious that Russia doesnt want the Nordics not to be a part of NATO. Russia doesnt want NATO next to its borders, because it wouldnt stand a single chance in a conventionall war against NATO. And currently (and that is the stated goal of NATO policy) is to expand its territory right up close to the russian border. This includes ukraine and if you think the nordics wouldnt be part of this goal then i cant help you. That's why media is making a bogeyman of putin/russia, to feed this idea to the masses.

This was paramount in foreign politics during 90's (unification of germany and collapse of sovietunion), to not expand nato so russia doesnt get threatened, to preserve peace on the European continent. Now it shifted and the US ignores their pact they agreed to.

Well then, why is Russia then doing everything it can to make the nordics join Nato? The Nordic stance to Russia was friendly to neutral before the whole Ukraine crisis and the Airspace incursions. How is it now? Nato isn´t responsible for Putins stupidity!

[mistyronin 1181]

Well then, why is Russia then doing everything it can to make the nordics join Nato? The Nordic stance to Russia was friendly to neutral before the whole Ukraine crisis and the Airspace incursions. How is it now? Nato isn´t responsible for Putins stupidity!

Why would be Putin's stupidity? It's his way to keep the power.

The only way Putin can gather support endlessly is finding someone culprit for all Russian problems. It rains too much in Moscow, it's NATO and the West... Russian average salary is low, is all NATO and the West.

It's quite a textbook example of authoritarian dictatorship ( you can always blame the Jews, the freemasons, communists, etc. ).

And while you do blame another of your problems, you start restricting freedom, and if anyone tries to oppose you internally, you blackmail him with some secret business, corruption, being gay or nazi, or whatever; and if there's nothing to blackmail him you just make it up. Just check what happened to all who tried to oppose to Putin.

But that should be discussed in another thread. As this one is specifically to talk about how Russia harass the Nordics, to convert them in new enemies too.

Edited November 5, 2014 by MistyRonin

[x3kj 1247]

Well there we can only speculate. Putin doesn't have a clean slate. Neither do NATO/USA. Each serves only in the interest of it's own. And this will never change. Until somebody is not in controll of its own power anymore.

You see, the news with the submarine which they now say was a hoax. Somebody must be responsible for the report. So either this somebody acted with certain intentions, or the side that is saying that it didnt happen has certain intentions.

It could as well have been a NATO/US submarine. And before sweden starts to hunt/damages it with its navy NATO solves the mystery by revealing the identity. As russia could propably interpolate what they are doing if the media aknowledges that it was in fact not a russian submarine, they say it never happened and they know of nothing. Pick your poison, we will never know the truth. Somebody might be eliminated and the victor writes the history of what happened but that doesn't mean it's the truth.

It's quite a textbook example of authoritarian dictatorship. And while you do blame another of your problems, you start restricting freedom, and if anyone tries to oppose you internally, you blackmail him with some secret business, corruption, being gay or nazi, or whatever; and if there's nothing to blackmail him you just make it up.

Funny thing you say that, because our american textbook democrats did it over and over again, and there is enough proof (

) of it. Edited November 5, 2014 by Fennek

[mistyronin 1181]

It could as well have been a NATO/US submarine.

I'm sorry but what are you talking about?

In this post we have already commented numerous Russian aggression to Nordic neutral states, that some of them have even been recorded in video. Russian Navy ships ramming Finnish investigation ships. Russian bombers getting inside Finnish and Swedish airspace ( there are even close photos of those Russian planes ).

Russia even recognized some of them, and also the military exercises in the Russian border close to Finland.

How on Earth could NATO do that? Unless you are telling me that NATO bought a lot of Russian war planes, flew them from Russia; also according to you the Russian Defense Minister and most of the Russian military HQ is working with NATO, as they also arranged the exercises and everything.

Please first read the thread, and then comment about it.

I don't even get what's your obsession with the US? That BTW you also identify them with NATO.

We are talking about Finland and Sweden mainly, that are neutral countries. Some could even argue that Finland was a bit pro-Russian before all the Putin's late aggressive policies.

Edited November 5, 2014 by MistyRonin

[surpher 1]

(Jornal de Notícias) Russian ship detected in waters of the Portuguese Exclusive Economic Zone

The ship was detected, identified and escorted out of the Portuguese EEZ during the night from Tuesday to Wednesday, having been out of the area this morning, the minister added.

Remember the PROFESSOR LOGACHEV from the Swedish sub hunt, its last recorded position is in the Bay of Biscay travelling south on the 28th Oct.

Edited November 5, 2014 by surpher

[x3kj 1247]

I have said what i said. I talked about the one submarine incident that they say is a hoax now but was all over the media.

I have not said Russia doesnt do anything. Read, think, talk. In that order.

That BTW you also identify them with NATO

US is part of NATO, otherwise they wouldnt have a constant and always present SACEUR in it.

We are talking about Finland and Sweden mainly, that are neutral countries. Some could even argue that Finland was a bit pro-Russian before all the Putin's late aggressive policies.

Exactly! And who do you think benefits the most in case russia violates Sweden/Finland borders? NATO. So the more incidents the better for them. cui bono. I would be foolish if i would try and stabilize the situation as NATO if my wish was to expand. And i would be foolish not to do anything in my reportoire to destabilize it further, create more upstirr in the public. How to achieve that? Biased media coverage and additional (to the real ones) incidents if possible.

Also, the US spy plane that escaped into swedish airspace when russians intercepted it/ radar locked it. The message was "Sweden, you can expect this to happen more often". Instead of massive outcry about violation of neutral country borders it's just swept under the desk.

You know what other european country counts itself as neutral? Austria. Except that it's only de-facto neutral anymore, because it allows foreign

through its country, which is illegal for a neutral country. Edited November 5, 2014 by Fennek

[mistyronin 1181]

Exactly! And who do you think benefits the most in case russia violates Sweden/Finland borders?

I already explained it before. The one who clearly benefits the most of these last years Russian aggressive policy is Putin and his friends. You just have to check his support level, even after promoting laws that restrict freedom in almost all possible ways.

If it wasn't for all these stories, Putin would had been over long ago, and probably dead in the hands of some other Russian groups.

The backfire is that NATO support is growing in neutral countries due to Putin's shows.

Edited November 5, 2014 by MistyRonin

[x3kj 1247]

You just have to check his support level, even after promoting laws that restrict freedom in almost all possible ways.

Can you give me a source for which laws are all promoted?

[mistyronin 1181]

Can you give me a source for which laws are all promoted?

Check the Ukrainian thread, I posted most of them there and from Russian sources ( RIA Novosti, ITAR-TASS and RT mainly ).

[Tonci87 163]

Yeah, don´t forget the "civilian" Russian cargo ship that was waiting for cargo on the open sea (something no cargo ship does) and then suddenly turned around back to Russia (without taking any cargo). What a coincidence that Sweden halted the Sub hunt just after that.....

You Fennek try to make it look as if NATO and the evil US are forcing Russia into doing stupid things and violating the border of neighbouring countries. That is not the case! Putin is responsible for that and Russia could stop that crap and reestablish normal connections with its neighbours anytime if it only wanted to do so. There is simply no excuse for that behaviour other than "show of force" and the creation of a fictious foreign enemy.

[mistyronin 1181]

In fact in Finland no one cared much about Russia, until this year when they invaded Crimea.

Or are you gonna tell me that even Putin is paid by NATO and lies? Because he recognized the Russian military invasion of Crimea, even before the vote.

[x3kj 1247]

You Fennek try to make it look as if NATO and the evil US are forcing Russia into doing stupid things and violating the border of neighbouring countries. That is not the case!

How do you know that? Your guts? Or because US never caused upstirr in a country it was interested in (e.g. ressources or else)?

And how do you know what is and what isn't stupid for Russias foreign interest? I'm in no position to say what is and isnt stupid for Russia, because i dont know Russia enough. And i doubt you do.

And yes NATO threatens Russia by its deals and plans close to Russian border. Like i mentioned already, this was the agenda and policy during collapse of SU that NATO should under no circumstance expand further to the east to keep the peace.

Now several years later it does exactly that. It offered Georgia and Ukraine a place in NATO.

In fact in Finland no one cared much about Russia, until this year when they invaded Crimea.

Nobody in western Europe cared about Ukraine either. Until maidan "the pinacle of democracy" like our media wanted us to believe. Yeah and what did they have after their protest? A non elected intermediate government which signed big economic deals (those which the old gov refused to sign a few weeks before maidan) with EU and uses force against part of its citizens who dont accept the new EU-focused way. Additionally the country is declared broke because of the conflict and world bank is pumping money into it, to a level of debt it can never pay back. Now where have i heard that before...

And yes they secured their fleet base and their access to the sea there. Do you honestly think the US would have freely given away a military base with nuclear weapons because some public uprise occured (whatever the cause)?

Edited November 5, 2014 by Fennek

[mistyronin 1181]

Nobody in western Europe cared about Ukraine either. Until maidan "the pinacle of democracy". Yeah and what did they have after their protest? A non elected intermediate government which signed big economic deals

You have an strange view on what happened ( and this should be in the Ukraine thread, not here, as I told you this one is to talk about Russian Army harassment of the Nordics, as the title says ) .

The president of Ukraine, Yanukovich, was impeached by the parliament, parliament elected 2 years ago democratically, ( even by his own party ) after he fled to Russia because of the orders he gave to the Berkut. After that the parliament voted a new interim gov until the elections, as it happens in most of the democratic world. The elections already took place, so?

And yes they secured their fleet base and their access to the sea there. Do you honestly think the US would have freely given away a military base with nuclear weapons because some public uprise occured (whatever the cause)?

Why you add again the US in the subject? When we were talking about what Russia did, not the US. When the US do something like that, then we will comment on that subject.

[Tonci87 163]

How do you know that? Your guts? Or because US never caused upstirr in a country it was interested in (e.g. ressources or else)?

And how do you know what is and what isn't stupid for Russias foreign interest? I'm in no position to say what is and isnt stupid for Russia, because i dont know Russia enough. And i doubt you do.

And yes NATO threatens Russia by its deals and plans close to Russian border. Like i mentioned already, this was the agenda and policy during collapse of SU that NATO should under no circumstance expand further to the east to keep the peace.

Now several years later it does exactly that. It offered Georgia and Ukraine a place in NATO.

Nobody in western Europe cared about Ukraine either. Until maidan "the pinacle of democracy" like our media wanted us to believe. Yeah and what did they have after their protest? A non elected intermediate government which signed big economic deals (those which the old gov refused to sign a few weeks before maidan) with EU and uses force against part of its citizens who dont accept the new EU-focused way. Additionally the country is declared broke because of the conflict and world bank is pumping money into it, to a level of debt it can never pay back. Now where have i heard that before...

And yes they secured their fleet base and their access to the sea there. Do you honestly think the US would have freely given away a military base with nuclear weapons because some public uprise occured (whatever the cause)?

Oh my god....

OK

1. The US isn´t the topic here, I really don´t know why Russian supporters always come with the "the US did it too argument so it´s ok for Russia to do it" It is simply not relevant in this case and fundamentally wrong.

I know that it can´t be in Russias interest to have a declining economy and to see their money loosing value at an astonishing pace. Yet this is happening right now. So yes it is stupid for Russia.

Did the Ukraine wan´t to join Nato? No, they just wanted to get better relations with the EU.

Did the nordics think that they should join Nato? No, they were fine, but they are definatelly considering it now.

Did the recent actions of Russia streghten Nato? Yes they did. So if it was Putins goal to prevent a expansion of Nato...well congratulations, he achieved the exact opposite thing.

[surpher 1]

(SvD) Swedish military even more certain: It was a foreign mini-submarine

The Swedish military has become even more certain that at least one small and foreign submarine operated in Swedish waters just off Stockholm last month, sources tell Svenska Dagbladet. An analysis of the events made by defense personnel is expected to be finished within days.

Today:

(The Guardian) Close military encounters between Russia and the west ‘at cold war levels’

Close military encounters between Russia and the west have jumped to cold war levels, with 40 dangerous or sensitive incidents recorded in the past eight months alone, according to a report published on Monday.

Edited November 10, 2014 by surpher

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) Russia's 'close military encounters' with Europe documented

[x3kj 1247]

where was the incident? the square or the intersecting thing?

is it even possible to fly over the baltic sea into the northsea without flying over at least one NATO or nordic state? Denmark pretty much blocks the passage to the north sea.

[Tonci87 163]

where was the incident? the square or the intersecting thing?

is it even possible to fly over the baltic sea into the northsea without flying over at least one NATO or nordic state? Denmark pretty much blocks the passage to the north sea.

Russian planes involved in incidents over the north sea didn´t come over the Balticum, they take the nothern route around the scandinavians.

[x3kj 1247]

The sea opening between Estonia and Finland is just 60-70km and if you count islands, at the narrorest point 40km. That means the corridor for international flight would have to be even smaller.

[Maio 293]

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?185513-Russia-General