So, AI can still see through completely obscuring grass and shoot at the player.

[pd3 25]

I know we have the equivalent of the Dark Souls community who somehow want to believe this either doesn't exist or that people should just deal with it, but it's just really annoying.

Really, really annoying.

I know the partial explanation is that perhaps the AI "guesses" where the player might be, but in the particular case I was just involved in, the ai simply couldn't have seen me.

I was basically seeing tracers flying out at me from tall grass that I myself could not see through without going into 3rd person view. The AI was laying down as well, and I was prone myself.

I don't know if this is not addressed because it might make the AI seem super dumb if they can't do this, but it's just beyond annoying. I would rather have dumbass AI that pretends you disappeared after moving behind some tall grass than them somehow magically being able to know your location and shoot at you through it even though they themselves are thoroughly obscured.

Is this ever not going to be a thing? It's just killing my experience.

[the_demongod 31]

The AI cannot actually see through grass. I could PM you a test mission if you like, which can help to illustrate this.

However, I think the issue relies on the fact that the AI are not affected by camouflage.

If you see the brown OPFOR uniform through a bush, you cannot tell that they are not part of the ground. If you see a miniscule fraction of their helmet, it'll just look like part of the grass.

But the AI sees you as an entity the same way you'd see them if they glowed neon orange, I think this is probably the cause of the "seeing through grass" issue.

[eggbeast 3684]

a lot of this hinges on detection rather than sight-blocking per se.

if you were previously running, or stood up, or fired your weapon or were carrying a rocket, or threw or fired a grenade or satchel, all of these things register high on the enemy detection system.

if an enemy heli overflew you, did you lie down and keep still? or sprint at full tilt, carrying a rocket?

this is key to concealment in arma.

many players forget this and our team follows this protocol to remain undetected for long periods:

1. don't ever stand and sprint

2. only one of you carries AT rocket, and never wields it standing next to the team

3. if someone is going to fire a rocket, they call it and the team gets set up to cover them for aimbot crews/defenders, then they break contact after firing, concealing themselves for the duration of the enemy AI hunt for them

4. don't use guns louder than you need to (7.62 / 50cal are ideally for 600-800m+) and don't fire loud guns near your team.

5. if within 300m of enemy, use a lot of cover, crouch always, don't fire unless you have tactical advantage (e.g. don't fire at a vehicle or heli if you cannot kill it easily, don't fire at enemies in a group that you can't dominate - use artillery, nades, air etc)

6. never rely on grass to keep you alive - break contact after hitting a few guys - once an enemy has a "target that man at 10 o clock" order given to him, think of him like a player who has a red target indicator on the head of the enemy target... he will watch it and shoot at it when it is not in cover (behind solid walls) - so in this case grass is not gonna save you. turning down enemy precision helps to keep this spray and pray enemy more realistic than aimbotting you in concealment.

8. use a lot of grenades as a team, to destroy enemy groups, rather than trying to shoot them all

9. never try to outshoot an enemy who has zeroed you in. if you have incoming rounds hitting the wall you are trying to peer around, break contact, drop back a block and try again. or wait him out, but that seldom ends happily.

we play in CQB in vietnam and desert town missions in A2 and can survive for hours like this with frequent skirmishes.

the game engine is what it is - adapting to it is your key to survival!

Edited October 1, 2014 by eggbeast

[pd3 25]

The AI cannot actually see through grass. I could PM you a test mission if you like, which can help to illustrate this.

However, I think the issue relies on the fact that the AI are not affected by camouflage.

If you see the brown OPFOR uniform through a bush, you cannot tell that they are not part of the ground. If you see a miniscule fraction of their helmet, it'll just look like part of the grass.

But the AI sees you as an entity the same way you'd see them if they glowed neon orange, I think this is probably the cause of the "seeing through grass" issue.

I don't know what you call it, but there are large bushy collections of grass which completely obscure one's perspective, not even the tiniest gap to see through, you cannot see through them at all, and yet the AI can accurately shoot at the player as if it was not there.

If for some technical reason that's not what you want to call it, that's fine, but I know what I saw.

---------- Post added at 09:05 ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 ----------

a lot of this hinges on detection rather than sight-blocking per se.

we play in CQB in vietnam and desert town missions in A2 and can survive for hours like this with frequent skirmishes.

the game engine is what it is - adapting to it is your key to survival!

I'll be honest, I fucking hate it. I can't enjoy it when I know it's not something that shouldn't be possible.

I modded A2 specifically to mitigate their supernatural, bat-like echolocation hearing. I remember a user made a mission to help visualize AI detection and it was insane, they were bordering on psychic. You could dodge and weave between buildings and go all over the place and any normal player would be having to make guesses.

For the AI? Nope! They knew exactly where you were going to appear even if you were out of range to hear them moving and vice versa.

I actually proved to somebody that they had virtually perfect 180 degree peripheral vision as well.

I think you're correct, in this particular case I experienced they simply were shooting based on detection, perhaps not on sight. And that's awful. I don't much care for "realism" if that means the AI has an unfair advantage. If I could not reasonably see them, they shouldn't likewise.

I don't find that to be an enjoyable challenge, it's just stupid, and annoying.

[eggbeast 3684]

it's just a game man.

[BL1P 35]

it's just a game man.

infidel begone !!!

:)

[TSAndrey 1]

And AI can still see pretty clearly during night. I once shot silenced rounds from the dark only to get killed by AI in 3 seconds!

[calin_banc 19]

eggbeast, if the game had autohealing and none of this "one-shot-kill" for the player at all, it would be nice. But at this point, you either play without grass (so you are at least on the same level) or you play in 3rd person view plus other "overkill" tactics like yours to keep up with the AI. Kind of immersion breaking.

[eggbeast 3684]

overkill tactics like ours are immersion breaking are they? try a real firefight and see how much you crawl about in grass with a scope... you'd be the first guy yankin pins out of all your nades and chuckin em, or plastering the contact point with suppression.

as for wanting autohealing and weaker weapons- you may have accidentally traveled here from another dimension (cod/BF).

but yeah the AI accuracy does need a tweak in the server profile to enable you to get close and have sustained firefights.

simulates much better real-world fighting: shoot,miss,shoot,miss,shoot,miss, shoot, miss, RPG, hit,

re the night and all-seeing-aI: in A3 it's a game breaker for me. we have enemy without NVG in our fights, and we often dont have it either as a personal kit item. much more fun, and arma looks great at night. this is my guide on how to fight at night, albeit in the jungle

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?181978-mp-co-op-22-unsung-evolution-vietnam-pack&p=2753843&viewfull=1#post2753843

[Bouben 3]

Guys, just don't bring real-life tactics into the discussion as that is not how Arma AI works. AI in Arma is set of artificial compromises that creates a somehow believable experience.

Without going into details, research those programmed solutions in the editor with some AI debug scripts and then discuss this topic. Otherwise it will be rather useless.

As for the grass, the AI cannot see (has no LOS to) a prone player through grass until the player is detected. The distance from spotter and skill of spotter plays major role in this. After the player is detected, different rules applies. The player has to immediately change his position (even if only for few meters) but he/she has to do it completely undetected because otherwise the AI will never loose track of the player. Once the player is spotted, the grass plays no role whatsoever. The AI have a completely clear LOS on the player in that moment. The next important thing to know is that AI is not affected by chaotic environment. They are not confused by chaotic visuals itself. Number of objects around you and actual colour of your camouflage thus have no meaning at all against AI. I also believe that players silhouette on the horizon has no effect at all, but I have not tested it. The only thing that matters is the LOS from AI to the player at a given time. However, in order to simulate AI LOS you have to put artificial rules into the game. Therefore actual grass composition has no effect for AI LOS. AI is only interested in meeting given conditions. So if the player is prone in grass being undetected, he is undetected only because these (illustrative) conditions are met: player is on a terrain defined as grass = true, player is prone = true, player is not moving = true, player has a clothing with a high enough camo value = true (there is not even a difference between desert and woodland camo), AI skill is not good enough to spot prone player on a grass type terrain on such distance = true... etc.

In other words, there is not enough sophistication and conditions in Arma yet to properly simulate AI spotting/visibility etc. Therefore, don't give frustrated players real world advices about tactics if they spotted unbelievable behaviour in a game.

UPDATE:

One more thing to explain, AI is perfectly able to shoot through grass even if their own view would be completely obscured by grass IRL. They are only interested in target's position from the target's perspective. If the target is marked as visible, they will see the target no matter how tall grass in front of them. Grass in Arma does not behave as objects (bushes, houses, cars, rocks etc.).

UPDATE2:

I am no expert on AI, so feel free to correct my statements if you know, scientifically, better.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Bouben

[froggyluv 2136]

The above problem could easily be helped by just adding invisible targets around the player such as SLX mod used to do for suppression. In that case, invisible objects were placed around the player at a certain 'KnowsAbout' level and the AI would begin to fire in player's general area to portray uncertain suppression.

The problem now is once all those variables said above come back as 'knows player location', they just take the beaded shot giving the appearance that they never really mess up like humans might.

[calin_banc 19]

overkill tactics like ours are immersion breaking are they? try a real firefight and see how much you crawl about in grass with a scope... you'd be the first guy yankin pins out of all your nades and chuckin em, or plastering the contact point with suppression.

as for wanting autohealing and weaker weapons- you may have accidentally traveled here from another dimension (cod/BF).

but yeah the AI accuracy does need a tweak in the server profile to enable you to get close and have sustained firefights.

simulates much better real-world fighting: shoot,miss,shoot,miss,shoot,miss, shoot, miss, RPG, hit,

re the night and all-seeing-aI: in A3 it's a game breaker for me. we have enemy without NVG in our fights, and we often dont have it either as a personal kit item. much more fun, and arma looks great at night. this is my guide on how to fight at night, albeit in the jungle

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?181978-mp-co-op-22-unsung-evolution-vietnam-pack&p=2753843&viewfull=1#post2753843

I'm not talking about firepower overkill, but about overkill tactics that are required to avoid AI's aimbot and superman spotting abilities. :)

What posts 2 and 10 are saying I suspected myself is happening and because of it, you have to do what you said. It's not about putting lots of nades, bullets, rockets etc. on their arses, but more about the AI knowing where you are, spotting you easier than they should etc.

I haven't been in a real firefight and I don't want to, HOWEVER, I did played airsoft and it was very hard there and in game as well, to spot the enemy due to the environment. And no, they weren't using special camouflage nets, just regular "military style" uniforms/clothing. Plus let's not forget, as a human, even if you knew from where the enemy fires, you need more time and are less precise in engaging the enemy: adrenaline, fear, and so on.

Another question: does the system in which players get under the map when prone at distance to simulate camouflage implies the hitboxes go underground as well (ergo, God mode) or remain on top and don't represent the visual object (of course)?

PS: I've mention autohealing as feature that if it was in the game, then I wouldn't mind that much the shortcomings of the AI, not that I've wanted it or anything. I thought that was clear. :)

Yes this is the main problem I feel. The AI don't have their view blocked by the grass around them. They can shoot me from their prone position (which should be blocked by grass) but I have to go up on one knee to see them and then the New added weapon sway makes hitting them even harder. By which point I'm already probably dead.

Yup, that's the problem.

LE: I find it funny how my character in the campaign spots targets that are WAAAAY out of my line of sight behind walls, houses, tress, etc. :rolleyes: That says it all about the AI.

Edited October 1, 2014 by calin_banc

[-=seany=- 5]

UPDATE:

One more thing to explain, AI is perfectly able to shoot through grass even if their own view would be completely obscured by grass IRL. They are only interested in target's position from the target's perspective. If the target is marked as visible, they will see the target no matter how tall grass in front of them. Grass in Arma does not behave as objects (bushes, houses, cars, rocks etc.).

UPDATE2:

I am no expert on AI, so feel free to correct my statements if you know, scientifically, better.

Yes this is the main problem I feel. The AI don't have their view blocked by the grass around them. They can shoot me from their prone position (which should be blocked by grass) but I have to go up on one knee to see them and then the New added weapon sway makes hitting them even harder. By which point I'm already probably dead.

Edited October 1, 2014 by -=seany=-

[Bouben 3]

Yes this is the main problem I feel. The AI don't have their view blocked by the grass around them. They can shoot me from their prone position (which should be blocked by grass) but I have to go up on one knee to see them and then the New added weapon sway makes hitting them even harder. By which point I'm already probably dead.

Yes, it is definitely unfortunate, that player has to do things that AI don't have to. It would be very nice if AI knew how to use the stances the player has now at his disposal. That would be actually AMAZING.

---------- Post added at 18:05 ---------- Previous post was at 17:55 ----------

The above problem could easily be helped by just adding invisible targets around the player such as SLX mod used to do for suppression. In that case, invisible objects were placed around the player at a certain 'KnowsAbout' level and the AI would begin to fire in player's general area to portray uncertain suppression.

The problem now is once all those variables said above come back as 'knows player location', they just take the beaded shot giving the appearance that they never really mess up like humans might.

The invisible targets does not solve the problem of AI spotting you when they should not. The invisible targets just influence the situation that happens after you have been spotted already. The spotting itself would still be problematic.

[eggbeast 3684]

cover, breaking contact, and choosingto engage when you have a tactical advantage (usually in firepower/number) - that's the answer.

trying to hide in the grass and snipe enemies is pretty pointless.

[Greenfist 1863]

Here's a video about AI and grass:

There's 3 enemies 250m away. The numbers in the distance are irrelevant, they're just the knowsabout value and the distance.

The big red balls are the positions where the enemies think I am.

Notice how going prone in the grass hides me quite well from them but the same in pavement does not.

Also, after I disappear from their LOS, they keep shooting at the position where they guess I am, so just hitting the dirt (i.e. grass) is not enough to save me. I have to move, preferably sideways, to avoid their bullets.

Someone might think they're not affected by the grass at all, but in fact they're behaving like human; if you see an enemy diving into high grass and going out of sight, you'll probably shoot at the spot even though you can't see him.

[Variable 322]

Here's a video about AI and grass:

That video pretty much sums this discussion. Thanks Greenfist.

[Greenfist 1863]

And after a really quick test, it seems that a prone AI will lose my position more easily than one standing up. Hmm, it's almost like their vision is indeed limited by the grass around them and not just around the player. I need to test this more.

edit. Oh look, I'm stupid. Of course the other one loses my position; he's lying down and the other is standing up! I really need to test this more.:o

Edited October 1, 2014 by Greenfist

[eggbeast 3684]

yes that was very good vid. can you do that again and this time shoot your weapon when concealed to see how that affects them? i bet they home in on you pretty quickly...

[Bouben 3]

cover, breaking contact, and choosingto engage when you have a tactical advantage (usually in firepower/number) - that's the answer.

trying to hide in the grass and snipe enemies is pretty pointless.

Oh well...I guess it is pointless to explain you how AI in the game works, right?

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------

Here's a video about AI and grass:

There's 3 enemies 250m away. The numbers in the distance are irrelevant, they're just the knowsabout value and the distance.

The big red balls are the positions where the enemies think I am.

Notice how going prone in the grass hides me quite well from them but the same in pavement does not.

Also, after I disappear from their LOS, they keep shooting at the position where they guess I am, so just hitting the dirt (i.e. grass) is not enough to save me. I have to move, preferably sideways, to avoid their bullets.

Someone might think they're not affected by the grass at all, but in fact they're behaving like human; if you see an enemy diving into high grass and going out of sight, you'll probably shoot at the spot even though you can't see him.

This does not solve the fact that AI is perfectly able to aim on a target even if their view is completely obscured by grass. As I said, the AI is interested in target only from target's perspective. That has to be changed in order to simulate AI behaviour properly.

---------- Post added at 19:46 ---------- Previous post was at 19:44 ----------

And after a really quick test, it seems that a prone AI will lose my position more easily than one standing up. Hmm, it's almost like their vision is indeed limited by the grass around them and not just around the player. I need to test this more.

I have a strange feeling this is going to be a placebo effect. You have to test it on a completely flat terrain with a near-laboratory conditions. Otherwise many other variables in AI behaviour will affect the results.

---------- Post added at 19:48 ---------- Previous post was at 19:46 ----------

Also notice in the video how they immediately spotted you on the road. That is because grass does not play a role in their LOS check. They are only interested in what terrain type you are on. Even if you was on a road with grass clutter, they would see you clearly. The terrain type would instruct them to see you, basically.

UPDATE: The grass would have to be rendered as actual objects in order to have a "true" LOS check on a target. It would then work exactly as with buildings and rocks and other objects. But the AI would not be able to cope with it in its current state.

---------- Post added at 20:00 ---------- Previous post was at 19:48 ----------

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------

This does not solve the fact that AI is perfectly able to aim on a target even if their view is completely obscured by grass. As I said, the AI is interested in target only from target's perspective. That has to be changed in order to simulate AI behaviour properly.

---------- Post added at 19:46 ---------- Previous post was at 19:44 ----------

I have a strange feeling this is going to be a placebo effect. You have to test it on a completely flat terrain with a near-laboratory conditions. Otherwise many other variables in AI behaviour will affect the results.

---------- Post added at 19:48 ---------- Previous post was at 19:46 ----------

Also notice in the video how they immediately spotted you on the road. That is because grass does not play a role in their LOS check. They are only interested in what terrain type you are on. Even if you was on a road with grass clutter, they would see you clearly. The terrain type would instruct them to see you, basically. (The deviations in spotting on the road are, IMO, caused by bushes, terrain features and that concrete stub near the road.)

UPDATE: The grass would have to be rendered as actual objects in order to have a "true" LOS check on a target. It would then work exactly as with buildings and rocks and other objects. But the AI would not be able to cope with it in its current state.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Bouben

[Greenfist 1863]

I have a strange feeling this is going to be a placebo effect. You have to test it on a completely flat terrain with a near-laboratory conditions. Otherwise many other variables in AI behaviour will affect the results.

Yeah, I edited then post after realizing what I had said.

After a few more tests, I can't see any difference in AI's spotting abilities in grass vs clear ground. The only things I'm pretty sure about are that you can hide in tall grass and an AI standing up will see better than one in prone.

[Bouben 3]

Yeah, I edited then post after realizing what I had said.

After a few more tests, I can't see any difference in AI's spotting abilities in grass vs clear ground. The only things I'm pretty sure about are that you can hide in tall grass and an AI standing up will see better than one in prone.

Interesting. Sad it is probably not by LOS check but some kind of other logic.

[calin_banc 19]

That video pretty much sums this discussion. Thanks Greenfist.

Not really. It depends on distance as well. Closer encounters means they shoot better at you and lose sight of you harder even when there is cover between yourself and them. Take a look bellow: 1st contact (that's almost a perfect situation of what's going on) he shot at me, very close, although he shouldn't had seen me so he could know where to fire THAT well (the stupid suppression/tremble effect gives away if you're under fire or not); on 2nd encounter the guy goes prone, immediately sees me and accurately kills me, something VERY hard to do as a human; 3rd one, same as the 1st - too close bullets land near by, when the NPC(s) should have not seen my avatar. I wasn't the only Bluefour there, to make it clear.

Also keep in mind that you as a human, may be VERY close to him, but not see the target due to camouflage. They need to up that effect, especially on uniforms that resembles very well their surroundings, low stances and depending on the position of the Sun/Moon, weather, etc.

Edited October 1, 2014 by calin_banc

[Bouben 3]

Also keep in mind that you as a human, may be VERY close to him, but not see the target due to camouflage. They need to up that effect, especially on uniforms that resembles very well their surroundings, low stances and depending on the position of the Sun/Moon, weather, etc.

Well, I would love to see an algorithm for it. I suppose it would not be the easy part of math...

[calin_banc 19]

No need to over complicate things. Independents uniforms would make (hypothetically speaking) impossible to "see" a soldier beyond X meters if the environment resembles (sure, lighting/shadows, time of day, weather, all needs to be taken into account and assigned a "camouflage value") . Less camouflage, bigger distance of spotting. Between those (you will definitely be spotted and you definitely won't be spotted), try to blend other variables as good as possible and perhaps a "chance to be seen". While under fire, injured severely (especially at the head), low stamina etc., spotting distance (and ability to fire effectively) must decrease accordingly - and quite heavily I would say, and as well, the cone of vision (spotting area) to decrease and focus on an area he perceives as a threat (just like a human would do). Also, the fact that a soldier "sees" something that attracts his attention, doesn't mean he has to go in full "enemy spotted mode", but rather to check out first and THEN if the threat/clues start to mount up and look more and more like a dangerous situation, act accordingly (which is an entirely new discussion - the artificial/machine like behavior). And if ONE soldier spots the threat, it doesn't mean ALL his mates know the exact location of it.

A long talk, I'm sure there is a lot it can be done even by setting some rough standards to begin with. All it takes is a will to act.

Edited October 1, 2014 by calin_banc