The new ARMA 3 DLC system - debate

[John Kozak 14]

I have mixed feelings about this new system. Stopping people from driving/piloting a vehicle seems like a very annoying thing that could cause problems during certain missions, so my gut reaction is: this is a terrible idea.

But then people are bringing up examples like "I can't play karts with my friends because they don't own the DLC!"

So they need to purchase the DLC in order to play with it? Mission accomplished! This is exactly how it should work.

The old "DLC lite" system has apparently created this flawed expectation that everyone should have full unrestricted access to DLC assets, regardless of whether or not they have purchased it. As long as you could look past the low quality art assests, all ARMA2 DLC was pretty much free for everyone. Great for the players, but from BI's perspective as a business this was obviously a very bad thing. It seems they are trying to walk the line between "too restrictive" and "too free", where there is unfortunately very little middle ground and probably no "perfect solution". (And I mean perfect for everyone including BI, not just perfect for the players because they get free stuff.)

The main problem I see with this system is that people who purchased the DLC may be "inconvenienced" by people who did not, though it remains to be seen how big a problem this will really be.

Very well put - of course, players want free stuff and a lot of it, but what will BI live off then? There have to be compromises, and one compromise is where you still can join the server and have someone other fly that chopper for you.

@MadDogX they could at least have left out the ingame "notifications" and the Purchase button right IN the game, that's what bothers me most. it bothers me in every game that's not free to play...

But you would agree that this is implementation details, not the whole idea's flaw, right? They can still go with this idea, but remove "purchase" button and change the notifications to be less obtrusive (for example). Or make you drop the DLC weapon after 10 minutes of gameplay (pretty much enough to loot an alternative).

[maddogx 13]

@MadDogX they could at least have left out the ingame "notifications" and the Purchase button right IN the game, that's what bothers me most. it bothers me in every game that's not free to play...

As long as the notifications and purchase button only appear when the player is actually using the content in question, I don't see the problem. If they don't want it anyway, they presumably aren't using it and thus won't be confronted with annoying nag messages. It's not like you'll be playing a standard military themed mission and constantly see in-game "ads" to purchase the Karts DLC.

The option of buying DLC directly from within the game is actually a neat idea, in my opinion. There will surely be situations where people decide to purchase DLC while playing; not being forced to restart the game just to do that is a positive thing.

hmm, can we add the community to the formula?

maybe we can add a share DLC function to the game

i have a two tier system in mind:

-share the dlc with 2nd player for a mission(not revocable)

-share the dlc with 3rd player, but you loose the dlc features while he use it(revocable)

Interesting idea. This could alleviate some problems, especially in situations where "the one guy who needs to fly the chopper can't do it" etc.

[Mr. Charles 22]

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?178409-MRB-ArmA-3-Kartinator

Seems like it's only a matter of time until Burnsi provides the same for the helicopters.

[eXpouk 10]

You do realize who you are addressing with these comments? These are people that have given hundreds, if not more, of man hours to working on community missions and scripts FOR FREE. These aren't "freeloaders" when it comes to contributing to the armaverse. BI benefits an immense amount from the work of people like this.

Imagine playing ARMA if none of the community content existed. How does this DLC compare to that?

You're right expansions do create a segmented/fragment within the community. I think it's fair to say though that the amount of content provided in an expansion creates enough of an incentive for people to buy it and also makes it easier to target players.

Nobody is arguing against paying for content, what a lot of us are throwing down a red flag on is the locking out of usability and functionality behind a paywall. Again if BI want to monetize content they would be better off selling campaigns/missions and including new vehicles/weapons as part of the ongoing product improvement cycle to increase their user base.

Imagine playing ARMA if the game was free and BI got nothing back for developing it...... Oh you can't because there wouldn't be a game.

The main difference between BI and mod authors is that BI priority is to make a profit. Mod authors know before working on a project that the only thing they are going to get back in return is the gratitude of the community and maybe a small amount in donations. BI on the other hand need to generate revenue to sustain their business as well as keeping their employees working lives stable.

Don't get me wrong, I'm hugely grateful for all the modders/mission makers out there for there work that I get to enjoy for free. There's isn't a perfect solution to this problem where both company and customers are going to be 100% happy. BI have had to compromise and we should as well. We can't expect to get everything for free like the Zeus DLC.

BI obviously think that locking out some functionality will provide a big enough incentive for people to purchase the DLC if they want to use it (because obviously HD textures wasn't enough). Whether they are right or not remains to be seen but I can pretty much guarantee people are more inclined to purchase the DLC's now than they were before.

[stilton 0]

Given their track record BIS is one of the few, if only games development studios i actually trust/expect to continue to support a product with meaningful updates long after release...

The old Arma 2 dlc system was awesome too, because it meant more people to play with: but i never thought of it from the 'business' perspective.

I have quite a few game breaking issues with Arma3, but i'm hopeful they will get fixed in the long run and if the new dlc system will help BIS getting paid, so they can keep rolling out updates. More power to them.

tldr? I voted yes. But i also didnt buy the karts dlc :D because go-karts are not my thing -- helicopters though, im there.

[DaViSFiT 21]

How many complaining here dont know what this "arma2" system was and still pointing at people who want s.t. "free"?

MadDogX this ingame dlc notification is a freaking joke. we want in our mission some feeling of reality, role playing a bit and immersion in the mission. BUY NOW for ONLY 10€, ONLY TODAY, now get it! Is this a handy game? a totally average interchangeable game for the masses? How long will you think people will accept this? Sure, some will buy but many others like me will rather not use this content because its so cheap annoying, so totally all over the audience you should listen to. we buy your stuff if its good, we are angry if you want to change this good community against 15 year old altis life players....

Edited May 30, 2014 by Numrollen

[Maio 293]

Just a small reminder. Moderators are not BI employees and what we say represents our own personal opinion on the matter.

[nmdanny 22]

How many complaining here dont know what this "arma2" system was and still pointing at people who want s.t. "free"?

MadDogX this ingame dlc notification is a freaking joke. we want in our mission some feeling of reality, role playing a bit and immersion in the mission. BUY NOW for ONLY 10€, ONLY TODAY, now get it! Is this a handy game? a totally average interchangeable game for the masses? How long will you think people will accept this? Sure, some will buy but many others like me will rather not use this content because its so cheap annoying, so totally all over the audience you should listen to. we buy your stuff if its good, we are angry if you want to change this good community against 15 year old altis live players....

Does your realistic and roleplayish mission consist of Go Karts? Probably not, in that case, you won't see a single notification.

If you want to charge into battle in a kart armed with a starter pistol and race gear, then you are expected to pay for the Karts DLC, otherwise this shouldn't concern you.

Same as for premium helicopters, you want to fly them? Buy the DLC, otherwise, let somebody who bought it fly and you can be a passenger. The notifications while being a passenger shouldn't bother you too much, and you should be grateful that you're even given a high quality partially usable helicopter.

After all, you can't expect to have free unrestricted content that you didn't pay for.

[jgaz-uk 132]

I agree entirely +1

Spot on! I Agree also. Arma 2 system or nothing

AND I thought all new A 3 DLC was supposed to be free for those who bought A 3 Alpha at the start, that no longer apply?

The ArmA 2 DLC system did not lock people out of missions as long as they had the free light version, this has got to be a must! From Bis point of view many people got fed up of the low quality blurry graphics & eventuly payed for the full HD version.

Edited May 30, 2014 by jgaz-uk

[Maio 293]

Spot on! I Agree also. Arma 2 system or nothing

AND I thought all new A 3 DLC was supposed to be free for those who bought A 3 Alpha at the start, that no longer apply?

Only for those who purchased the Supporter Edition.

[vegeta897 13]

AND I thought all new A 3 DLC was supposed to be free for those who bought A 3 Alpha at the start, that no longer apply?

It's free for those who purchased the supporter edition.

Edit: drats!

[maddogx 13]

I thought all new A 3 DLC was supposed to be free for those who bought A 3 Alpha at the start, that no longer apply?

Nope, that was never the case. All DLC is free only if you bought the supporter edition.

Edit: damn ninjas.

[saltatormortis 12]

maybe the popup mssage shoud get moved to the loading screen/ after game init

in the therm of "this mission contains content of following DLCs wanna buy?"

[DaViSFiT 21]

Does your realistic and roleplayish mission consist of Go Karts? Probably not, in that case, you won't see a single notification.

If you want to charge into battle in a kart armed with a starter pistol and race gear, then you are expected to pay for the Karts DLC, otherwise this shouldn't concern you.

Same as for premium helicopters, you want to fly them? Buy the DLC, otherwise, let somebody who bought it fly and you can be a passenger. The notifications while being a passenger shouldn't bother you too much, and you should be grateful that you're even given a high quality partially usable helicopter.

After all, you can't expect to have free unrestricted content that you didn't pay for.

Kitting me? forget the karts, physics are horrible. I supported bis for buying the alpha because they wanted to implement (was on the feature list for the full version) the ToH physics to arma3. Me and many others played arma2 the hole time because of the community, greating so many good mods and missions. arma got only so big because of this. The dlc content was rarly used by use but most owed it. And i dont want it for free without restriction, just make it the arma2 way and add more premium stuff for the buyers. More skins, more details, more of everything in high quality.

Wanna fly it? Yes, but on public servers this wont work. Got 20 players without the dlc, so no one can fly? great! What will server admins and mission makers do? Not using this dlc....

Edited May 30, 2014 by Numrollen

[John Kozak 14]

maybe the popup mssage shoud get moved to the loading screen/ after game init

in the therm of "this mission contains content of following DLCs wanna buy?"

And the player just presses "No", plays for free and doesn't give drek about it = bad for BI.

Or the mission won't load and an angry player goes to forums to express his "good" feelings = bad for everyone.

---------- Post added at 14:24 ---------- Previous post was at 14:22 ----------

Kitting me? forget the karts, physics are horrible. I supported bis for buying the alpha because they wanted to implement (was on the feature list for the full version) the ToH physics to arma3. Me and many others played arma2 the hole time because of the community, greating so many good mods and missions. arma got only so big because of this. The dlc content was rarly used by use but most owed it. And i dont want it for free without restriction, just make it the arma2 way.

Wanna fly it? Yes, but on public servers this wont work. Got 20 players without the dlc, so no one can fly? great! What will server admins and mission makers do? Not using this dlc....

They will just put a couple of regular choppers into the mission :D

I'd expect about 20% of regular public server playerbase will have this expansion in a month.

[Tonci87 163]

I´ll summarize my feeling for this new system again since people like eXpouk and Darkwanderer still don´t get it.

I don´t want "everything for free", but I want to get my moneys worth out of a purchase, I think we can all agree on this, right?

What will happen with this method is that you will never see the DLC content used in MP Missions.

The Reason for that is that the Mission author simply can´t be sure that there will always be someone there who

A: Owns the DLC

B: Is willing to take that slot (he might be tired after a long day and not really in the mood to do a lot of flying).

Because of that almost all mission makers will rather use other content, either official or modded, than risk to have unusable assets inside a mission. This applies to both closed community and pub Missions.

So what is your DLC vehicle worth if you never get to use it outside of the Editor?

This approach doesn´t only harm the free players, it harms the paying customers!

[gdscei 1]

I think I have made up my statistics for the authors of posts with a negative opinion on the matter in this thread:

- 60% didn't read all the information on the DLC strategy

- 80% are unreasonable and think that everything should be handed to them for free (c'mon guys, BI is and stays a company; they need to make money, otherwise there won't be an Arma anymore!)

- 19% don't realise that this is one of the fairest DLC models there is in the gaming industry

- 1% is actually considerate and comes up with a different suggestion that is still profitable for BI

(I knew the Arma forum community was pretty bad at times; but really?)

My opinion on the matter: it's DLC; paid content, not free. That's all.

Also, I have seen numerous times in this thread "But if x person doesn't have the DLC and doesn't want to buy it, they can't play the mission/mod!" - really? I didn't see anyone hesitate to buy A2:Arrowhead for DayZmod. If people aren't willing to buy a $10-$15 DLC for a mission/mod you made, there is clearly a lack of quality and/or re-playability in your creation. And if that was so, the player would probably still want to play the mods/missions that do contain the DLC that actually have quality, so they would buy it anyways. But that's just my opinion.

Edited May 30, 2014 by gdscei

[gossamersolid 155]

I much prefer how the "lite" content worked in ArmA 2. You could freely use all of your paid assets in your missions because you knew people would still be able to 100% play the mission. This is just going to cause problems.

BIS is solving the A2/OA split issue by having the expansion not standalone for A3, but they are causing an entirely new issue...

[jgaz-uk 132]

Nope, that was never the case. All DLC is free only if you bought the supporter edition.

Edit: damn ninjas.

Supporter Edition That was that really expensive set of maps you couldn't use in game if I remember? Oh no! Looks like Ill have to pay the £1.90 if I want the Go Karts, which I dont..

Related Question; since the update 1.20, some Dedicated servers are no longer showing on Steam you have to change to Gamspy to see them again?

Any idea what this is all about?? Players not being able to find servers even more Fragmentation not good.

Edited May 30, 2014 by jgaz-uk

[John Kozak 14]

Mission author simply can´t be sure that there will always be someone there who

A: Owns the DLC

B: Is willing to take that slot (he might be tired after a long day and not really in the mood to do a lot of flying).

Because of that almost all mission makers will rather use other content, either official or modded, than risk to have unusable assets inside a mission. This applies to both closed community and pub Missions

[/b]

That point is a huge speculation.

Mission makers use big addon sets while they can't be sure that players would be in the mood for downloading them - how about that?

Mission makers simply can't be sure the person who pilots the chopper will not abruptly shut down the game

Mission makers simply can't be sure their mission will get played, y'know? ;)

Addon/mission making is not a certainty business.

Edited May 30, 2014 by DarkWanderer

[Tonci87 163]

Another problem I have is that the pricing on the DLCs is a bit weird. The Helicopter DLC will contain what? Two helicopters and a few assets? And it will still cost more as Arma 2 DLCs with lots of units, a new Map, Weapons, SP Campaigns, etc.....

And the Karts DLC also has almost no real production value and still costs 1,50€?

Call me old fashioned, but I just don´t see enough valuable content to justify the pricing....

IMHO BIS should focus on making true expansions like OA that bring a lot of new content and feaures instead of DLC stuff.

[zimms 22]

Why doesn't the mission maker put a regular helicopter next to the DLC one so the pilot can choose?

[John Kozak 14]

Why doesn't the mission maker put a regular helicopter next to the DLC one so the pilot can choose?

Pre-freaking-cisely, nailed it

:-)

[Tonci87 163]

That point is a huge speculation without any backing except for hard feelings...

Mission makers use huge addon sets while they can't be sure that players would be in the mood for downloading them - how about that?

No it is not speculation. I get Feedback from all over this community, and from my community. Mission maker feedback

You´ll almost never see this stuff used in MP. And that would be a shame because you don´t get to use what you paid for.

[vegeta897 13]

What will happen with this method is that you will never see the DLC content used in MP Missions.

The Reason for that is that the Mission author simply can´t be sure that there will always be someone there who

A: Owns the DLC

B: Is willing to take that slot (he might be tired after a long day and not really in the mood to do a lot of flying).

You seem pretty confident, but I seriously doubt it's going to be as bad as you predict. I could apply the same logic to missions that rely on mod content. Sure, mods are free to download, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to download the mod just to play, especially when they're already in the game and looking in the workshop. It's a pain to have to exit the game, find the mod, download and extract, add it to the mod line, and then launch again. Of course BIS are working to make this process easier, which is good. But that hasn't happened yet, and this process has been tedious for 15 years of Arma, yet we still have plenty of missions that rely on mods. Not only do they rely on mods, but you can't even play the missions if you don't have the mods. At least with this model, you can play the mission. Not every mission that uses a DLC asset will be broken if you don't own the DLC.

Edit: Anecdotal evidence that the mission makers you have talked to aren't going to use the DLC in their missions really doesn't prove anything. Lack of a certain type of mission (DLC content missions) creates a demand, which in turn will be filled by mission makers who want exposure for their missions. "Hey, there are no missions out there with that new Helicopter, mine can be the first and all the people who own the DLC will want it!" This same logic can be applied to servers.

Not to mention, your theory has already been proven wrong by the existence of at least 5 Kart missions on the steam workshop within the first day of release. Looks like mission makers are okay with using premium content after all.

I much prefer how the "lite" content worked in ArmA 2. You could freely use all of your paid assets in your missions because you knew people would still be able to 100% play the mission.

You preferred the lite content because you could play with paid content for free with a very minor downside. A downside that was so minor that many people had no idea it was due to not owning the DLC.

If people can 100% play a mission that uses DLC content, that kind of defeats the purpose of it being paid content.

Edited May 30, 2014 by vegeta897