Laser Designation and Laser Guided Bombs from Jets

[spanishsurfer 58]

Since the release of the new jets I've been flying a lot more. Working with teammates on the ground we've been practicing lazing targets and getting the LGBs to drop on targets. We have the mechanics all down, the player on the ground has his designator (with batteries), aiming at a building, and I have a lock right onto his laze, I have the LGBs selected and I have a solid lock with every drop.

I've tried coming in fast from low altitudes/high altitudes, dropped from a great distance out and then close and even tried dive bombing. I've noticed that the bombs don't seem to do much "guiding" towards the laser target. I've been doing this for years and never had a problem with it. In Arma 2, the bombs almost always hit their targets and worked beautifully. In Arma 3 it does not seem to work well, the times I do hit near the target it's only because I aligned the Piper (the moving circle that shows where your bombs should drop) in the general area of the drop.

All of this done on a multiplayer session of BECTI Zerty 1.1.9.3, although the mission doesn't have an effect on this core game mechanic.

Has anyone figured out how to get these darn bombs to precisely drop on their laze every time? Dive bombing the target is not a solution since you could do this without a laze and still hit the target.

Thank you.

[the_demongod 31]

"solid lock" meaning there's a square and a diamond over the target? the square means you're just acquiring the target. You have to wait for the diamond to appear to actually have the bomb be guided at all. Try starting from very far away, and as you fly towards the target, you will at some point see the diamond appear for maybe 3-5 seconds. Make sure you drop as soon as you have solid lock, because the diamond doesn't stick around very long.

ave,

the_Demongod

[spanishsurfer 58]

Yep, I have a box with a diamond when releasing the bomb...the bombs are not hitting.

And don't confuse bombs with missiles, the missiles work fine.

Edited March 27, 2014 by SpanishSurfer

[Jezuro 452]

As long as your mate keeps the laser on target until splash, it should work. Just tested it in vanilla: had an AI mark the target for me, flew in, dropped the bomb (aligned not nearly precisely enough for unguided hit) and it hit perfectly.

[Tonci87 163]

As long as your mate keeps the laser on target until splash, it should work. Just tested it in vanilla: had an AI mark the target for me, flew in, dropped the bomb (aligned not nearly precisely enough for unguided hit) and it hit perfectly.

Same for me. You can test it in the Jets showcase.

Is the target static?

[spanishsurfer 58]

It was in a 8 hour BECTI match with 45 people. The player lazing was also an experienced arma player and was lazing the enemy Heavy Factory (big green military building) with the laser designator and batteries, he never moved the laze (if he did I would have seen it moving via radar).

I'll try again tonight if I get time to play.

How do you get AI to laze targets? Action menu? I haven't tried in Arma 3 but in Arma 2 the AI could not do this (In BECTI anyway).

-SS

[Westonsammy 1]

It was in a 8 hour BECTI match

That might be the problem, I know that ArmA starts to glitch up when a mission has been running for a long period of time, particularly BECTI, which has to handle tons of units and stuff going on all around the map.

[spanishsurfer 58]

That might be the problem, I know that ArmA starts to glitch up when a mission has been running for a long period of time, particularly BECTI, which has to handle tons of units and stuff going on all around the map.

Maybe, but never had problems in Arma 2 with the same mission.

[Tonci87 163]

Well yeah that was Arma 2 and it can handle large scale MP missions better than Arma 3 can atm. I think the Devs are working to improve this.

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

I meant to post this reply in this thread regarding lasing targets but accidentally posted it elsewhere:

Were you playing on Veteran difficulty? I and a few others have been testing the last two days and have discovered that on veteran the laser target generated by both the laser designator AND IR grenades cannot be tab locked as was the case in previous versions.

At this point in time the only way to acquire a lock is to look directly at the target and push the "zoom and lock" key to lock on.

I will be doing further testing asap but it also ties in with a feedback issue i have ceated where Independent laser designators present on the two UAVs and the Strider do NOT function correctly. They cannot be locked ontp via any method.

[spanishsurfer 58]

It's on regular.

[izaiak 1]

Since the release of the new jets I've been flying a lot more. Working with teammates on the ground we've been practicing lazing targets and getting the LGBs to drop on targets. We have the mechanics all down, the player on the ground has his designator (with batteries), aiming at a building, and I have a lock right onto his laze, I have the LGBs selected and I have a solid lock with every drop.

I've tried coming in fast from low altitudes/high altitudes, dropped from a great distance out and then close and even tried dive bombing. I've noticed that the bombs don't seem to do much "guiding" towards the laser target. I've been doing this for years and never had a problem with it. In Arma 2, the bombs almost always hit their targets and worked beautifully. In Arma 3 it does not seem to work well, the times I do hit near the target it's only because I aligned the Piper (the moving circle that shows where your bombs should drop) in the general area of the drop.

All of this done on a multiplayer session of BECTI Zerty 1.1.9.3, although the mission doesn't have an effect on this core game mechanic.

Has anyone figured out how to get these darn bombs to precisely drop on their laze every time? Dive bombing the target is not a solution since you could do this without a laze and still hit the target.

Thank you.

There is no problem with laser targeting. The only problem is the little angle to get the target ( compare to the reality ). As you said diving is not working but arriving with a little angle (around 3/8° ) to the target will allow you to get and lock the target without any problems.

[Mr. Charles 22]

RE: AI lazing targets:

I found out that the AI will target enemy vehicles and positions if there are vehicles around with GBU's or LO250 bombs when they have a lasermarker and batteries for it.

[Crielaard 435]

@Surfer

Here is a page of my combat fundamentals manual:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11221288/3Cdo/LGB%20parameters.pdf

There is a 5 degree cone in wich you should release your bomb. When flying inside this cone, you will get the diamon comming up. However you should release the bomb BEFORE you exit the cone. So basically the moment the lock is solid, you release without delay.

[spanishsurfer 58]

OK, so I got a chance to work on lazing today....The GBUs do not work for me at all when I fly high and fast. For those of you that said I should wait for a diamond/box combo, GBUs do not have that, only missiles do; so that suggestion is out. **Correction, I was wrong...There is a diamond/box combo, it's just very finicky. In Arma 2 BECTI, I could drop bombs from 4km out, at 800km/h, and that bomb would hit every time, right on the money. I had a bunch of people on our server giving all kinds of suggestions, but almost all of them were completely off the mark. We only had 1 player (Slimfilthy) who actually had the technique down. He came in at an airspeed < 500km/h at an altitude of 500-600m and released the bomb and hit the exactly building I was marking. I even marked the wrong building on the map to ensure he wasn't using the 3D waypoint to guide them in.

So after a few minutes with Slim, I came to a conclusion that in order for a bomb to hit on the mark you need to be below a certain airspeed, below a certain altitude, and have a solid lock onto the target. BIS, what are these numbers? What's the max altitude and airspeed I can fly the jets in order to hit a target being lazed? To me, 500-600m in order to accurately hit a target is just nonsense, this isn't WWI. Today's bombs are dropped from 50-60,000ft....Why do I have to fly so low to hit stuff with a laze? If i'm wrong please let me know, but I' really like to know the capabilities of the jets a bit better.

Thanks!

PS Neptune where did you get that PDF? If you made it how did you come up with those #'s?

-SS

Edited March 31, 2014 by SpanishSurfer

[Crielaard 435]

PS Neptune where did you get that PDF? If you made it how did you come up with those #'s?

-SS

I made it my self based on my earlier level-manual release table (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11221288/3Cdo/Manual%20level%20Bombing.pdf) some calculations and several hours of testing.

Wait for a video to prove the numbers work. ;-)

---------- Post added at 07:51 ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 ----------

And...

Here is the video

Little over 5000m with a slant range of about 7.5km Which gives us a release angle of about 45 degrees.

Edited March 31, 2014 by 87th_Neptune

[spanishsurfer 58]

Very nice, i'll have to try it. Thanks!

[Wiki 1558]

As long as your mate keeps the laser on target until splash, it should work. Just tested it in vanilla: had an AI mark the target for me, flew in, dropped the bomb (aligned not nearly precisely enough for unguided hit) and it hit perfectly.

Hum, and how to make AI mark a target with laser designator for me?

[Jezuro 452]

As mentioned earlier, the AI will automatically mark targets suitable for a bombing run (tanks, APCs etc.). For targetting static objects, a combination of selectWeapon and doTarget (maybe more) would be required.

[Wiki 1558]

Ok, I'll try this, thanks

[Tonci87 163]

As mentioned earlier, the AI will automatically mark targets suitable for a bombing run (tanks, APCs etc.). For targetting static objects, a combination of selectWeapon and doTarget (maybe more) would be required.

Wait what? The AI marks targets on its own? I didn´t know that. All they need is a Laser designator?

[JamesSaga 1]

^^ Must try this tonight :)

[spanishsurfer 58]

Played around a bit more, and indeed...if you have the correct altitude a diamond will pop up on the square box for a few seconds. I tried a few drops as soon as it came up and the rounds tended to miss, when I let it hold for 2-3 sec it was dead on every time.

Neptune, a few things to consider with your technique. Your example worked at 5,000m because you had a very high view distance set. This allowed you to select your target as far out as 11km, which is NOT possible on a public server that allows a max view distance of 3km. View distance directly effects your ability to select a laser designation and/or target, which I confirmed today. So because of this fact, someone could use your PDF to put themselves in the general ball park of where they can drop the GBU based on the max view distance of the server (typically 3k), this way they can get that diamond/box combo that is the onboard guidance computer telling you you're good to drop.

I tried different altitudes today all with a view distance of 3000m. The best altitude that allowed solid drops while ensuring a high airspeed and a few seconds for error corrections were 1500m @ 400-500km/h. The angle you come in at had no effect on the GBU drops, I tried all major compass headings, all solid hits.

The only thing done differently from the server was that I use a darter rather than a laser designator...but I don't think I'd see different results.

GBU/laser hits are working, they're just a lot more difficult than in Arma 2...and I'm OK with that :)

[Crielaard 435]

To confirm your findings using math...

At 3km view distance the theoretical maximum altitude for release is 2121 meters. But you'll have 1.0 second respond time at the most to find lock and release(flying 450km/h).

Bringing it down to 1500 meters gives you 5 seconds to find and lock the target and another 5 seconds in what I like to call the 'release cone'.

Addition:

You can also try to setup a 5 degree dive angle at will keep you in the 'cone' a little bit longer wich makes it easier aswell. (Or allows you to fly faster with the same 'response time'. To be more exact...

It gives you about 100 meters extra room in the 'release cone' thus you will be able to fly an extra 100km/h for the same response time.

Utilizing these numbers even futher you could get a better standoff by flying at 2000 meters with 10 degree dive angle.

And watta you know...! These are numbers that should be VERY familliar IF you have carefully read my manual bombing guide

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=24728

Your aimpoint is then 6km behind the target. So put a personal waypoint there (shift click on map)

Start at 2700 meters in altitude, turn on your final attack heading 4000 metes from the target (putting your self 10km away from the aimpoint) and put your flight path marker on your waypoint. Your aircraft will now slice through the 'cone' at optimal range and altitude.

*disclaimer** the waypoint elevates with terrain!

;)

Edited April 1, 2014 by 87th_Neptune

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

Okay so further testing reveals that the Independent faction cannot mark targets using any sort of marking device including the following:

Darter

Kabil

IR grenade

Strider

Hand held laser designator

I have not yet tested the SDV.

Do also keep in mind that the Buzzard can still lock onto laser targets created by Opfor and Blufor.

I'll continue testing.

nice videos Neptune, always good to see CAS pilots who have even a ballpark idea on how to conduct CAS properly. It helps boost immersion immensely rather then watching a Wipeout come in at some stupid angle spamming bombs and guns everywhere only to clip a tree after htti g a group of friendlies. Aggrevating to say the least.