Ukraine General

[spooky lynx 73]

About that Economics, etc... I know what You mean, because soon the Poles might feel what our crap government overlooked \ was too lazy to do in terms of cooperation with EU. But IMHO it's always the case of how You lead the case. With decent rulers You can work out a solution so You don't end up being slave of € and Merkel. Also, the problem is - the Ukrainians doesn't have it much better right now, from what I heard.

Most of Ukrainian industry ventures simply can not be transformed to suit listed EU standards, they are too tied with Russian market. So their only fate is collapse. EU is not dumb to help some foreign industry that may compete its own one. What will be the result? Desert.

[blu3sman 11]

pro-EU/US...Yatsenyuk, Klichko and fuhrer Tyagnibok...EU association treaty ... Syria or Marocco...Economics will just collapse...source of cheap labor force and market for EU goods...excrements...maidauns...

Your typical Putin-TV mantras are totally irrelevant since like 30 November.

[scrim 1]

Most of Ukrainian industry ventures simply can not be transformed to suit listed EU standards, they are too tied with Russian market. So their only fate is collapse. EU is not dumb to help some foreign industry that may compete its own one. What will be the result? Desert.

You have clearly underestimated the stupidity and corruption of the EU then. Also, if the Ukraines were to join the EU, which they'd have to to get substantial help, they'd be part of the EU, and thus not competition.

Also, intended to write #InBeforeRussianCommunityRantsAboutEvilWestAndWhyOnlyPutinCanSaveTheUniverse. That, and #I'mShitAtHashtags.

[spooky lynx 73]

Your typical Putin-TV mantras are totally irrelevant since like 30 November.

Fail. I've never voted for both Putin and EdRo. So please put your cliches somewhere far away. You see, if someone has an opinion alternative to you it is still opinion but not TV mantra.;)

Oh and some members of my family live in Harkov and Poltava, moreover I'm Ukrainian for a half. So I don't like what happens with my dad's birthplace, it turns to new bandera-land, the difference between 1941 and 2014 is only that during 1941 raguli blamed and tortured kikes, moskali and poles, now kikes, moskali and titushkas.

You have clearly underestimated the stupidity and corruption of the EU then. Also, if the Ukraines were to join the EU, which they'd have to to get substantial help, they'd be part of the EU, and thus not competition.

Also, intended to write #InBeforeRussianCommunityRantsAboutEvilWestAndWhyOnlyPutinCanSaveTheUniverse. That, and #I'mShitAtHashtags.

Nobody even speaks about joining EU, it's only about treaty that installs some standards for Ukrainian industry and laws and regulates customs tolls (in favor of EU). And EU isn't so stupid, believe me. They clearly know that Ukrainian industry won't be able to reach required standards and will be destroyed while attempting to do it. So another free market for EU goods will be ready. You may say it's tinfoil conspiracy and 'ZOMG evil Europeans try to harm mother Russia!!!' rant. Well, yes, they try to harm. Because it is just normal realpolitik and nothing more. The same things were 100 and 200 years ago, they will be 100 years later.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[comm_yuri 10]

oh please. Don't put Russia in the victim role. Their methods and inteference as much as I actualy want to admit that Russia is the one being "pushed back" ( if you want to call 'loosing former occupied countries', "being pushed back" ) all the time while the US is expanding it's sphere of influence over the entire globe, are so violent, clumsy and obvious to a blind man, that they simply make it easy for everyone to portray them as the bad guys. US/EU on the other hand manage to cover up their intentions much better + they are the lesser evil to choose from both in terms of general political and economic profit for your own nation. Because let's be honest, how much can you profit from being more pro-Russian ? Russia has problems with itself.

[spooky lynx 73]

I don't say about victim. It's just struggle. And as for the methods - count the countries attacked by US&NATO after 1945 and Russia and compare numbers. Who is violent?

How much can you profit from being pro-Russian? Ask Egyptians what they think about Aswan dam, Afghans about Salang tonnel and all the factories, roads and houses built by soviet engineers.

[blu3sman 11]

Aswan dam, Salang tonnel and all the factories, roads and houses built by soviet engineers.

When it comes to crimes of the regime, Russia is not USSR successor and takes no responsibility.

When it's valuable heritage, it's just Russian, not Ukrainian, Belarussian, Kazakh etc.

[spooky lynx 73]

Just as Georgia has nothing to do with Stalin's and Beria crimes. At least they think so. And Israel has nothing to do with crimes of Kaganovich, Sverdlov, Kotovsky, Bronstein aka Trotsky, Gamarnik, Bauman, Litvinov aka Finkelstein, Mehlis, Yagoda etc.

[maturin 12]

I know I don't have a whole lot of respect for people who willingly join the riot police as their career path.

Unless they've got a personal grudge against soccer hooligans, that branch of security is just going to attract thugs who end up on the wrong side of almost every dispute in society. All the sordidness of military service with almost none of the redeeming qualities.

Fail. I've never voted for both Putin and EdRo.

Yeah, but voting for Zhirinovsky doesn't really win you any points here.

Just as Georgia has nothing to do with Stalin's and Beria crimes. At least they think so. And Israel has nothing to do with crimes of Kaganovich, Sverdlov, Kotovsky, Bronstein aka Trotsky, Gamarnik, Bauman, Litvinov aka Finkelstein, Mehlis, Yagoda etc.

Derp. So Israeli Jews are guilty for what Russian Jews did, even before their country existed, with most of its population not having lived in the same society for literally thousands and thousands of years? Still, your impressively long list of Jews, inserted irrelevantly into a debate, certainly fulfills your scumbag quota for the day.

And really. Georgia has much less to do with Stalin's crimes, since it only existed in a state led by Stalin because he helped conquer it at the head of foreign invasion army.

And the eternal Russian tactic of answering accusations by pointing out others with the same crime is usually something that is outgrown in childhood. Look at him, daddy, he stole the chocolate too!

Edited February 21, 2014 by maturin

[comm_yuri 10]

I don't say about victim. It's just struggle. And as for the methods - count the countries attacked by US&NATO after 1945 and Russia and compare numbers. Who is violent?

How much can you profit from being pro-Russian? Ask Egyptians what they think about Aswan dam, Afghans about Salang tonnel and all the factories, roads and houses built by soviet engineers.

You're comparing cookie pieces with giant pies ....

Egyptians more lucky about their Soviet weapons they used against Israel and allmost scored a win in 1973 but that's all, most in that country is Western based .... and I honestly doubt that Afghans are soo happy about what Russians did to them some decades ago. Anyway as I said, I totaly understand Russia's POV but looking over the past centuries, see absolutly no profitable perspective in being pro-Russian instead. It's rather slowing down progress and unhealthy. Call me prejudiced if you want.

Stalin murdered tens of thousands of Georgians including most intellectuals. People who are still proud of him are the oldies and veterans who were not affected by his crimes.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Comm_Yuri

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

From page 1:

My view is the president should either call a referendum or general election. It's what is usually done to settle things like this. They have allowed the situation to get out of control, an example of grossly incompetent leadership and irresponsibility.

Same thing is happening in Venezuela, for different reasons.

Ukrainian president and opposition sign early poll deal

The 2004 constitution will be restored within 48 hours, and a national unity government will be formed within 10 days

Constitutional reform balancing the powers of president, government and parliament will be started immediately and completed by September

A presidential election will be held after the new constitution is adopted but no later than December 2014, and new electoral laws will be passed

An investigation into recent acts of violence will be conducted under joint monitoring from the authorities, the opposition and the Council of Europe

The authorities will not impose a state of emergency and both the authorities and the opposition will refrain from the use of violence

Illegal weapons will be handed over to interior ministry bodies

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26289318

Hopefully this will all simmer down now and maybe the election will pass peacefully without Russian interference or anyone putting dioxins, thallium or polonium in the soup lol.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Mattar_Tharkari

[blu3sman 11]

Maidan rejected the deal.

Yanukovich left with ultimatum:

1)Resignation in 12 hours

2)Court

3)Fate of Qaddafi

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

dont forget option nr4; he deploys the army and the whole country go's up in flames.

[Tonci87 163]

I doubt that much of the army would accept such orders from him.

[vilas 477]

Maidan rejected the deal.

Yanukovich left with ultimatum:

1)Resignation in 12 hours

2)Court

3)Fate of Qaddafi

i little but understand them, why ? i look at Polish history and Czech

Czech republic is much lower than Poland, they had lower industry than we had in 80s, they completly removed commies from any power , they removed politicians who lie and they removed corrupted politicians from economical and legal life scene, as result, Czech republic is now twice better place to live than my country,

my country chosen compromise instead of removing from power corrupted commies, my country politicians allowed children of commies to get in business and etc.

result - Polish miners from Silesian region look for job in Czech mines, Polish workers from Bielsko Biala (ex big car producer) look for jobs in Skoda,

Czech is much more developped than Poland, cause they chosen way of no compromise and removed completly corrupted guys from scene,

when you go on compromise with thief it looks following :

"i was stealing milion , okay, now i will steal half milion, you take another half, okay?"

as result you still robbed from milion, just now 2 guys take it,

Klichko reminds me Lech Walesa, why ? both guys create themselves as leaders of opposition and "only alternative", whole world thinks that fall of communism = Lech Walesa, in fact it is not like you think, Lech Walesa = compromise with commies and closing eye on their robbery , but west see him as hero while we do not see him like this, but you have only "western media" infos so naturally that you know what you read from mainstream media, who love compromises cause commies changed suits and now they are "modern european liberal businesmen"

the same on Ukraine, guys say "lets make compromise" but compromise = "lack of punishment for blood that was shed" , from my point of view it is like saying to victim of criminal "okay, he robbed you, he beaten you, now forgive him and all is okay, he will say sorry and move to another town next month and you won't see him anymore in this town but he will keep your money cause he need them" while you try to put man to jail,

such compromises sound like "we were stealing, but we will not go to jail and we can keep half of stolen stuff" but situation is not that easy in ... Ukraine which has 30% minority of Russians,which of course has serious meaning in voting results,

cause half of country (region) has completly different needs than second half of country,

Ukraine is dual-like country, half of country wants to EU, half of country wants to Russia , you cannot put together water and fire, it is all because Soviet leaders in past painted themselves line on map "ooo this is border of Ukrainian republic, nice line on map, super" but there remained Russians , what to do with them, they have other interests than people in Lvov, Kiev ,

Russians are Russians, they use Russian language, Ukrainians are Ukrainians, they use Ukrainian language, how to connect those 2 pieces who have different needs ?

changing borderlines by politicians cause problems always

"important man" (Stalin in past for example) sits by the map "ooo this will be Poland, this will be German, this will be Ukraine, so we move people here, we move people there, nice one" < it will not give good things

someone said about changing borders or split of Ukraine as country to 2 countries, who knows , maybe this would be solution that those 2 groups of people live the way they want and do not interrupt each other ? who knows (but EU will not allow it, otherwise... what to do with Nothern Ireland, Basks , what Turkey should do to Kurds and Israel to Palestinians? even in my country some Silesians say they do not want to be part of Poland )

Edited February 21, 2014 by vilas

[scrim 1]

all the factories, roads and houses built by soviet engineers.

Would that by any chance be the same engineers who rendered Afghanistan the world's most mine rich country by heaving millions and millions and millions of AP and AT mines indiscriminately over the Afghan countryside from the back of cargo helicopters? Yeah, I'm sure that the Afghans are grateful to the USSR/Russia to this day for those questionable "contributions"...

[maturin 12]

Czech republic is much lower than Poland, they had lower industry than we had in 80s,

It's not that the Czechs had less industry, it's that their industry actually pre-dated the Soviets to a greater extent. More time with a developed economy overall.

Russians are Russians, they use Russian language, Ukrainians are Ukrainians, they use Ukrainian language, how to connect those 2 pieces who have different needs ?

It's really not that hard if the great powers on either side don't demand having an exclusive relationship with the country, like jealous lovers.

At the moment Putin is the most guilty of this. Sure, it's a decent argument that Ukraine's economy is closely bound to Russia and the EU could cause as much hard as good. But when Putin threatens to deliberately wreck Ukraine's economy and treat it like a traitorous state... it's clear he doesn't give a shit about how Ukrainians live.

Ukraine will only have a bright future if it can exploit the competing interests of east and west, trading with both and perhaps playing one against the other. Siding entirely with either one will alienate too much of the population and make democratic governance impossible because the side that always loses elections will often resort to non-democratic methods.

The strategic nature of Ukraine's position needs to be turned into strategic power for Ukraine, not a prize for others to claim. That's something like what Yanukovich was trying to do by courting the EU deal and soliciting favors from Russia, but Yanukovich is a rather stupid, depraved person.

[vilas 477]

But when Putin threatens to deliberately wreck Ukraine's economy and treat it like a traitorous state

why Putin should care about life in other countries than his own ? he is politic responsible for standard of life and economy of Russia, not other country

The strategic nature of Ukraine's position

i heard it in 90s, Polish geographical position might give us... i know how it ended, German and RUssian trucks destroyed our roads, German and French supermarkets took market without paying single PLN of tax, only Polish taxpayer pay for roads , which are used by German and Russian trucks with goods, we heard that we can earn a lot of money on gas transfer pipe under our territory from Russia to German... now they build pipe under sea and Schroeder is manager there or director, i went in 90s on railway engineering studies caue i heard that railway will grow cause Poland is behind Russia/Ukraine and Germany, than railway was destroyed and i was unemployed ... thanx

Edited February 21, 2014 by vilas

[sudayev 27]

Can anyone distinguish two languages - Russian from Ukrainian and find a region accent if possible?

They are exchanging the information about targets, movements and aiming.

I know only a little, but it sounds pretty Russian to me

[vilas 477]

0:54 is Ukrainian speaking person (accent, typical "he" instead of "ge" "hotel" instead of "gostinica" , like Boh instead of Bog) 01:37 also sounds Ukrainian accent, 2:11 also sounds Ukrainian, 2:38 also, 3:37 etc.

i hear Ukrainian accent for sure,

for me the most easy signal to divide Ukrainian from Russian is this "h / g" "hatov" "gotov" "hde" "gde" also endings on "u" , do you know Sudaev Redute Ordona in Ukrainian ? Nam strelatu ne kazaty , vstupyl ya na delo, delo vyebelo ;) or "ey horelka s boraka, roby s mene duraka"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTRMyV-IA8Q since 3:00 do you hear "ne tuzhy za mnoyu" instead "za mnoy" "zhenoyu" instead of "zhenoy"

Edited February 22, 2014 by vilas

[vilas 477]

something "funny", Yanukovich escaped in private jet, Yulya Tymochenko also has private jet,

i ask - how it is possible that in country where people earn 100, 200 Euro per month politicians have their own private jets ? ;) this is giving view of what is Ukraine, how much they stole from nation, that they even own private jets, as Forbs says, money which Yanukovich family has is like 510 000 000 dollars (yes, half bilion), nice ? in few yeas !

Edited February 22, 2014 by vilas

[Beagle 684]

something "funny", Yanukovich escaped in private jet, Yulya Tymochenko also has private jet,

i ask - how it is possible that in country where people earn 100, 200 Euro per month politicians have their own private jets ? ;) this is giving view of what is Ukraine, how much they stole from nation, that they even own private jets

Even I know people personally that own a private aircraft and already was invited to participate in a travel from my hometown to Split in Croatia...that's nothing out of the complete ordinary and they are normal german medium bunsiness owners, having a private aircraft is not that out of the ordinary so why can't a presindent not own a Jet...the used aircraft market is vast and you can get used touring aircraft to the price of an brandnew luxury car.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well i suppose that for security reason, officials must have private planes. Well, use private planes, not own them ;)

[Beagle 684]

Well i suppose that for security reason, officials must have private planes. Well, use private planes, not own them ;)

Well our official use those of the Luftwaffe. The Luftwaffe has a few Airbus A-320 and bombadier challenger jets and Super Pumas ready on demand for any member of the government. official politician business transportation is in hand of the armed forces like in the USA. It sound indeed a bit strange when a presindet has a private jet ready like a getaway car in a bank robbery.

[vilas 477]

president is clerk !!! clerk with salary from taxes, how can he have a jet which costs dozen of milion of dollars (not small Cesna, but jet) on private ?

you cannot compare German life conditions to Ukraine, cause in 1 day many Germans earn more than Ukrainian in month, so saying about German businesmen is irrational to Ukrainian conditions

from wikipedia:

$37,470, < year salary of President in Ukraine

so officialy he earns 37 thousands dollars per year , tell me , how can you buy jet from that salary

i can bet that a lot of our community members here on this forum from USA earn MORE and they do not have private jets , they not even have private small plane, it shows corruption very good,

if person owns things 100 times more expensive than he earns as clerk, than it shows how this system is corrupted and how people are angry

Edited February 22, 2014 by vilas