Ukraine General

[maturin 12]

Kind of Translation: If you want to declare a part of Germany as your own, or want to take that part away from Germany or want to change the constitutional order with use of force, or threatening to use force, you will go to jail for 1 till 10 years. In less severe cases it is 6 months till 5 years.

I mean you may go for up to 4 years in Russia and for up to 10 years in Germany into jail for the same crime. Russia totally evil.

So do the Russian laws protect calls for peaceful secession? Do they?

The use of force is the critical part of those German laws.

(Washington Post) : Air Force general: U.S. isn’t bluffing on evidence in shootdown of Malaysian jet

I hope they realize that every additional day of delay is going to bring about years of conspiracy theories. At the very least, no one in Russia will be left without minds made up by Kremlin media, which will have serious consequences, if the West wants to push Putin on his support of the rebels. What's more, every day without real evidence makes the Western media more and more unreliable and emotional, like their state-controlled Russian counterparts.

Edited July 22, 2014 by maturin

[negah 26]

Then why dont they show it.

For instance this guy tells that their satellite pictures show that it were ukrainian troops who shoot down that plane, but yeah he must be a conspiracy theorist.

http://www.theburningplatform.com/2014/07/21/whistleblower-u-s-satellite-images-show-ukrainian-troops-shooting-down-mh17/

Russia says it has sattelite images showing ukrianian Buks deployed near that area.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1

Ukraine tells us it has also some satellite images proving it was russia who shot it down, wait Ukraine has got a space program?

Everyone tells us something, and no one wants to prove it with something more than "I say it is so, you must believe me".

The use of force is the critical part of those German laws.

Thats why I made the part about threats of using force bold. THREATS, not actual use of force. And you know how lawyers can interpret their own laws, and what they sometimes understand as threat.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Everyone tells us something, and no one wants to prove it with something more than "I say it is so, you must believe me".

Considering how both sides react, i'll be extremely surprised if the US weren't right this time. But yes, i'd like to see those pictures too.

[mistyronin 1181]

Oh yeah evil russian laws again. Lets see what our democratic laws in Germany tell about separatism.

[...]

I mean you may go for up to 4 years in Russia and for up to 10 years in Germany into jail for the same crime. Russia totally evil.

I think you missed my point.

Isn't it a bit hypocritical to even forbid to make peaceful calls for separatism in the Internet and supporting actively separatism, because Russia is doing it ( for instance Crimea, Georgia, Transnistria, etc. )?

BTW that I'm aware Germany doesn't support any separatism, specifically a violent one.

In fact, as the law is already signed, Putin and all his Gov. should go to jail.

[maturin 12]

Thats why I made the part about threats of using force bold. THREATS, not actual use of force. And you know how lawyers can interpret their own laws, and what they sometimes understand as threat.

And so what? The threat of violence is illegal pretty much universally. It's presence in the law is practically redundant.

Asking someone to lend you a cup of sugar is legal. Asking someone to lend you a cup of sugar under threat of violence is illegal. But what happens if multinational sugar corporations hire lawyers to abuse the law and criminalize baking ingredient sharing among neighbors?!?

For instance this guy tells that their satellite pictures show that it were ukrainian troops who shoot down that plane, but yeah he must be a conspiracy theorist.

http://www.theburningplatform.com/20...ing-down-mh17/

I've read that. He clearly has an axe to grind in the twilight of his long career and one brief mention (not even a quote) isn't much. It's far from journalism just yet. But if he really has a bombshell like that, we will hear more of it. Same situation as the U.S. government, really. We're waiting.

Could be that the U.S. is trying to put together evidence that doesn't compromise their intelligence sources. More likely, they are trying to see if they can implicate Russia, rather than just blaming separatists. Maybe they are waiting to see how far Russia will dig itself in with its denials.

Edit:

Meanwhile the Russian military's press conference was rather confused. They posted satellite photos of an alleged Buk battery that was actually in rebel territory and composed of 3 vehicles, not 4. Which is just bizarre. How and why would the Ukrainians drive an incomplete Buk battery deep into rebel-held land?

And then there are their series of 10 Questions for Ukraine, which include references to the fake Twitter account of the Spanish air traffic controller.

But seriously, it's time for the US to put up or shut up.

Edited July 22, 2014 by maturin

[beastcat 14]

Meanwhile the Russian military's press conference was rather confused. They posted satellite photos of an alleged Buk battery that was actually in rebel territory and composed of 3 vehicles, not 4. Which is just bizarre. How and why would the Ukrainians drive an incomplete Buk battery deep into rebel-held land?

And then there are their series of 10 Questions for Ukraine, which include references to the fake Twitter account of the Spanish air traffic controller.

But seriously, it's time for the US to put up or shut up.

Russia doesn't really have to present anything, because if the US really does have something and the investigations show that russia is somehow involved, pretty much nothing will happen. Maybe some more sanctions but that is it. No matter what the US says and no matter how stupid russia's defence is, the russian people are still as brainwashed as before. The people will just stay determined, that the US is lying and all of this is a conspiracy. They will pick out parts of the mess the russian news spit out and everyone will put together his own conspiracy theory.

The biggest fear is not that we won't be able to prove who shot the plane down, but the problem is that even if we do, nothing may change and the western powers will continue sitting on their asses all day, going "Oh no Putin, thats bad! Please don't do that!"

Edited July 22, 2014 by beastcat

[sudayev 27]

An article written by experts of the matter.http://rt.com/news/174332-ukraine-pl...oto-perverted/

Hold on a second, hasn't this fella been in Crimea region? His face looks kinda familiar, was he on vice or at some photos from earlier months?

[beastcat 14]

Hold on a second, hasn't this fella been in Crimea region? His face looks kinda familiar, was he on vice or at some photos from earlier months?

That is actually quite possible, a lot of the people who were in Crimea are now working in eastern Ukraine.

Edited July 22, 2014 by beastcat

[mistyronin 1181]

[negah 26]

So youre always talking about how brainwashed the people in Russia are, maybe.

But you have to remember that people in our oh so free western society are just as brainwashed.

Democracy is just another religion the big ones used to keep people in control for centuries.

When it started it was maybe a good idea and kind of well implemented.

To quote Benjamin Franklin

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

But times have changed, e.g. here is what the current US president has said:

But I think it’s important to recognize that you can’t have 100% security, and also then have 100% privacy, and zero inconvenience.

http://news.genius.com/President-barack-obama-remarks-on-nsa-wiretapping-prism-annotated

It quite the contrary to what Franklin said.

We have now some strange militarization of police in the USA

https://www.aclu.org/blog/tag/militarization-police

Surveillance cameras everywhere

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22274770

US has cited a law, which allows them to kill their own sitizens without trial

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/23/us-justification-drone-killing-american-citizen-awlaki

Couple of years ago they would've put you in a concentration camp like Guantanamo, now theyd simply kill you. I guess thats even better, god bless america for being so kind.

And total observation of the citizens by the NSA. But hey, all of it is for our own safety.

So US now looks more like Orwell's "1984" or that movie Equilibrium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_(film)

IIRC in "1984" the countries even led constant wars against each other, not because they wanted to conquer something, but because they needed an enemy, so that their society could not think about problems of their own govt.

Sounds familiar?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations

So next time you post something about brainwashing just look at you own backyard.

Edited July 23, 2014 by negah

[beastcat 14]

I never said the US is perfect, but this thread is not about the US (There is another thread for that).

Also, all those links you posted are from the US, some of them from "mainstream" media. Doesn't that already tell you something about freedom of press?

You can't do that in Russia.

Also there are people who stand up for themselves, for their rights, for their freedom and for a working democracy. You can't do that in Russia. Demonstration is against the law, unless its organised by the state. Same laws in China and North Korea.

Also the russian state runs a huge internet censorship campaign (Which backfired once and blocked government sites, because hackers linked to them on an anti-government site), controls all the media and has a very militarized society.

These are just a few things, but you get the idea. The US is not perfect, but nothing compared to russia, which poses a real threat to modern countries.

(Also I'm not from the US. You don't have to be from the US to hate the russian government. Actually the countries around russia hate it much more, not because some evil anti russian conspiracy, but because of the crap russia does.)

Edit: Also I love how Borodai in the Vice video pretty much goes "The investigators are upset that we mess around with the crash site and don't let them access it, but we are waiting for them to access it for a few days now and it must be some evil conspiracy by Kiev, because... Yeah..."

Edited July 23, 2014 by beastcat

[negah 26]

Also, all those links you posted are from the US, some of them from "mainstream" media. Doesn't that already tell you something about freedom of press?

You can't do that in Russia.

Also there are people who stand up for themselves, for their rights, for their freedom and for a working democracy.

Yeah but Russia was never a democratic state and doesnt really pretend to be one.

US however bomb countries for their lack of democracy while in their own country that same democracy is being flushed down the toilet, slowly but surely. How long will it take that US will look more and more like Russia, China and North Korea. Oh btw, some of the closest US allies are dictatorships. e.g. Saudi Arabia.

To quote one famous guy who turned a democratic state into a dictatorship:

“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed.â€

On boing off-topic: the whole thread has long gone away from topic discussing what happens in Ukraine. Right now it should be named "Why we hate Russian Imperium"

Edited July 23, 2014 by negah

[ProfTournesol 956]

Your quote from AH fits perfectly with Russia today, where the remnants of democracy are progressively taken away : for example, as of yesterday : "Putin signs law on ‘presidential quota’ of upper house members" (Itar Tass) or "Punishment for violation of order at rallies tightened in Russia" (Itar Tass)

[negah 26]

Your quote from AH fits perfectly with Russia today, where the remnants of democracy are progressively taken away : for example, as of yesterday : "Putin signs law on ‘presidential quota’ of upper house members" (Itar Tass) or "Punishment for violation of order at rallies tightened in Russia" (Itar Tass)

Yeah and I have also never said that Russia is a democracy.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Yeah and I have also never said that Russia is a democracy.

That's why when comparing what's happening there to what's happening in the USA, you must ask yourself a very simple question : what country would you choose to live in ?

[negah 26]

That's why when comparing what's happening there to what's happening in the USA, you must ask yourself a very simple question : what country would you choose to live in ?

Id choose Germany, or to be specific Bavaria (Yeah we like to dream of our Great Bavarian Kingdom :), I guess that's why the rest of Germany hates us) :P

To choose between USA and Russia is like to choose between the devil and the deep blue sea.

[Tonci87 163]

As if Bavaria is a prime example for democracy. The CDU is definately one of thd more crazy parties.

[jelskipro 32]

All of the bodies are flown tomthe netherlands at eindhoven airport. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28446033

[ProfTournesol 956]

Corriere Della Siera : How Malaysian Plane was Shot Down : Pro-Russian militiamen describe tragedy: “Superiors told us about plane carrying paratroopers from Kievâ€

We shot down a Kiev plane, our superiors told us. We thought we were looking for baled-out Ukrainian pilots but instead we found dead civiliansâ€.

---------- Post added at 16:59 ---------- Previous post was at 16:56 ----------

BBC news :

UK government sources say intelligence shows rebels deliberately tampered with evidence, moving bodies and placing parts from other planes in the debris.

[[frl]myke 14]

One thing i don't understand, maybe i'm just too naive: pro-russian troops say they don't have AA systems to shoot down a plane. Yet they downed 2 ukrainian SU-25. I always thought you need a AA system to down a SU-25, throwing rocks wouldn't do it. And don't even think of mentioning MANPADS, they wont take down 2 SU-25 from 7000 meters.

[maturin 12]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

But times have changed, e.g. here is what the current US president has said:

But I think it’s important to recognize that you can’t have 100% security, and also then have 100% privacy, and zero inconvenience.

Reading comprehension is not your strongsuit.

These are very simple quotes. Obama's statement only clashes with Franklin's if you believe that "essential liberty" = "privacy" and "convenience." Neither of those happen to be ensured by the Constitution. When it comes to privacy and civil liberties, I personally lean more towards Snowden than Obama, but let's try and be serious people, shall we?

One thing i don't understand, maybe i'm just too naive: pro-russian troops say they don't have AA systems to shoot down a plane. Yet they downed 2 ukrainian SU-25. I always thought you need a AA system to down a SU-25, throwing rocks wouldn't do it. And don't even think of mentioning MANPADS, they wont take down 2 SU-25 from 7000 meters.

Problem is, both the rebels and the Ukrainians routinely lie about everything. Obviously the rebels have Buks, but it's not obvious that Ukrainian plans were shot down at the altitudes reported. An Su-25 can't hit anything at 7000m, after all.

[[frl]myke 14]

An Su-25 can't hit anything at 7000m, after all.

Not every jet fighter plane in the air is automatically on a combat mission. And even when he is, i guess a Air-to-ground missile wont have problems to hit a target from 7000m.

[maturin 12]

With its lack of optics, I can't imagine what an Su-25 would be doing up there otherwise. And the base variant Frogfoot has to aim Kh-25s and Kh-29s with the Mk. 1 Eyeball, manually slewing the laser around as it dives.

[beastcat 14]

"SBU captured a mortar gunner, who was shooting at residential quarters"

http://youtu.be/aPEKojTsRyI

He talks about how he was recruited to the LNR, how he was trained to shoot a 122mm mortar for two weeks and that he had 3 missions.

He says he was told that they were shooting at armor in the city.

He also talks about who recruited him and who the commanders are, but that is probably more interesting to the SBU.

[mistyronin 1181]

Myke;2737962']One thing i don't understand' date=' maybe i'm just too naive: pro-russian troops say they don't have AA systems to shoot down a plane. Yet they downed 2 ukrainian SU-25. I always thought you need a AA system to down a SU-25, throwing rocks wouldn't do it. And don't even think of mentioning MANPADS, they wont take down 2 SU-25 from 7000 meters.[/quote']

They also downed two transport planes and a bunch of helos.