Ukraine General

[ProfTournesol 956]

Since you did not answer any of my questions, why should you expect me to answer yours?

But here you go: Perhaps, who knows if there was such Ukrainians, and i would find their arguments factual and strong enough. I remain open to consider it.

If there was such Ukrainians ? Are you working for RT ?

[mistyronin 1181]

What do you think, is it ok for the US to train the same neo-nazis which are also responsible for the hideous crimes already commited in the bombing of Donbass residential areas and cities?

What makes you think that the US is training the Azov Battalion...

Not even the main source of the Kremlin funded propaganda is with you... :j:

(RT) US lawmakers ban aid to Ukraine neo-Nazis

The House of Representatives unanimously adopted amendments to the US 2016 defense budget proposal, outlawing training and arming of Ukraine’s notorious paramilitary “Azov†battalion. Russia hailed the decision as “better late than never.â€

- - -

If there was such Ukrainians ? Are you working for RT ?

As you could see, his thesis are even some steps in front of RT...

Edited June 23, 2015 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

Well at least you are recognizing US presence as a fact. So far so good. But you do observe that they are "twisting" this fact. Let's see.

That is how you put it, which i think could perfectly be a valid interpretation of their intention by exposing said fact. Maybe in a way to sensationalise it. But...

While you put it as a matter of quantity and level from which one can consider Ukraine being full or not of US soldiers, stressing the subjectivity of such opinion, i rather look at qualifying such presence, if it is benefiting for Ukraine and Ukrainians, and if conclusions the latter may reach, beyond plausible, are legitimate or not. In effect, no matter if i approach it quantitatively or qualitatively, the training of the National Guard under which Azov among other neo-nazi formations are affiliated is reason enough for my opinion to side with whichever Ukrainian wants the US presence out, if nothing else for that reason alone.

[Huffington Post] US forces to hold exercises in Ukraine

my emphasis

What do you think, is it ok for the US to train the same neo-nazis which are also responsible for the hideous crimes already commited in the bombing of Donbass residential areas and cities?

Except that these ones are not. Perhaps it would be interesting to find similar protests regarding the volunteers fighting in Donbass. Can you provide a source for the above? Certainly to be considered.

But this observation does begs the question, what exactly are the official US Army on one side and the Russian volunteers on DPR/LPR side doing?

The former, you already know my opinion, based on the established facts, the latter are not training neo-nazis, they are fighting themselves, why is that?

My conclusion is they have a dog in the fight, it is their home they are defending, their own relatives and mates, nevermind if they are russophonic and carry a russian passport. That region is prone to this phenomenon given it's history and mixing of traditions.

That is an obtuse observation. Even if that is possible, it is baseless, do you have any facts to support the claim that it was staged? But even if it was staged, do you think there is a perversion of the sentiment of the ukrainians depicted?

Don't you find this to be reversing the facts on its head? The onus is on you to claim otherwise. I remain open to consider it.

Yes there is US personel training Ukrainian soldiers. Azov is not trained by them! They are explicitly banned from that training program, wich in my opinion has a pro and a con. Training them would actually make them more professional=less likely to harm civilians. Since the rest of your conclusions is based on your thinking that Neonazis are given training by the US....well not one of them is valid.

As a fact Ukrainians have more reasons to want the Russian soldiers out of Ukraine than they have reasons to want the few US soldiers out of their country. Any demonstration that is only in favour of expeling the US soldiers therefore has to be staged/conducted by Russians.

[oxmox 73]

...for my opinion to side with...

Its a dirty little geostrategical conflict with foreign meddlings already since a longer time, a shitload of propaganda on all sides and in the meanwhile quiete a difficult situation with Ukraine inner politics including the anti-terror campaign.

There are critics and issues found everywhere doesnt matter which side.....

[gammadust 12]

If there was such Ukrainians ? Are you working for RT ?

Give me a break, that is even more an obtuse argument than before. If i show doubt on one assertion you do it is because i don't have been shown evidence for it. You are assuming that i have come across the same sources as you. Don't do that, if you can show me evidence of a Ukrainian protest against the presence of volunteer "outside" forces in Donbass, you can consider myself satisfied. We'll gladly discuss their reasons then.

But this is you again expecting only answers from me. Why is it that my questions are merely rethorical and yours apparently not? At least answer me one before i indulge you once again.

What makes you think that the US is training the Azov Battalion...

Not even the main source of the Kremlin funded propaganda is with you... :j:

(RT) US lawmakers ban aid to Ukraine neo-Nazis

- - -

As you could see, his thesis are even some steps in front of RT...

Not at all, i am totaly aware of that ban, that is the reason i emphasized Associated Press' news item author of the declarations, the dates, the training suppliers and recipients. You guys know the "Who, What, When, Where and How". Here it is once a gain:

[Huffington Post] US forces to hold exercises in Ukraine

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — The United States plans to send soldiers to Ukraine in April for training exercises with units of the country's national guard.

Ukraine's Interior Minister Arsen Avakov said in a Facebook post on Sunday that the units to be trained include the Azov Battalion, a volunteer force that has attracted criticism for its far-right sentiments including brandishing an emblem widely used in Nazi Germany.

Avakov said the training will begin April 20 at a base in western Ukraine near the Polish border and would involve about 290 American paratroopers and some 900 Ukrainian guardsmen.

Pentagon spokesman Col. Steve Warren said the troops would come from the 173rd Airborne Brigade based in Vincenza, Italy.

U.S. forces also took part in exercises in Ukraine in September.

my emphasis

It means the thesis if any is Avakov's not mine. The mentioned Conyers/Yoho' was "unanimously adopted amendments to the US 2016 defense budget", to take effect next year? But even if you take it that it is to be effective immediately, that means at best the 11th this very month (June 2015). Well, US training to Azov mentioned by Avakov precede this date (September 2014 and April 2015). Devil's in the details...

Yes there is US personel training Ukrainian soldiers. Azov is not trained by them! They are explicitly banned from that training program, wich in my opinion has a pro and a con. Training them would actually make them more professional=less likely to harm civilians. Since the rest of your conclusions is based on your thinking that Neonazis are given training by the US....well not one of them is valid.

This is not my thinking, this is the Ukraine's Interior Minister ffs, it is your word against Avakov's which supervises in Ukraine such programs.

I have another explanation for the ban: It was absolutely impossible to mantain it under Avakov's confession. The US required to put distance inbetween, and for that, at least, i applaud the House of Representatives not only for the iniciative, but unanimity!

As a fact Ukrainians have more reasons to want the Russian soldiers out of Ukraine than they have reasons to want the few US soldiers out of their country. Any demonstration that is only in favour of expeling the US soldiers therefore has to be staged/conducted by Russians.

Please name some of those reasons. Preferably, Ukrainians could speak for themselves, but please advance yours too, before i follow you to the conclusion.

Its a dirty little geostrategical conflict with foreign meddlings already since a longer time, a shitload of propaganda on all sides and in the meanwhile quiete a difficult situation with Ukraine inner politics including the anti-terror campaign.

There are critics and issues found everywhere doesnt matter which side.....

No doubt there is propaganda, misrepresentations even, straight out lies on both sides, but one can still extract facts from available information, pay attention to facts that are not disputed, or arrive from unsuspecting sources, evaluate their weight on the globals, employ sound logic, give sufficient room for always present degree of doubt... Yet still arrive at one's conclusions base on such.

[Tonci87 163]

Gammadust, where are you from?

[mistyronin 1181]

Not at all, i am totaly aware of that ban, that is the reason i emphasized Associated Press' news item author of the declarations, the dates, the training suppliers and recipients. You guys know the "Who, What, When, Where and How". [...]

It means the thesis if any is Avakov's not mine. The mentioned Conyers/Yoho' was "unanimously adopted amendments to the US 2016 defense budget", to take effect next year? But even if you take it that it is to be effective immediately, that means at best the 11th this very month (June 2015). Well, US training to Azov mentioned by Avakov precede this date (September 2014 and April 2015). Devil's in the details...

So you are telling us that your only proof that the US has trained the Azov battalion is a March 31st Avakov's Facebook post that said that "the units to be trained include the Azov Battalion"?

Let's see...

What does the Azov people say about that:

(Sputnik News) Ukrainian Neo-Nazis Strike Back: Azov Battalion Bashes US Congress

"We are extremely surprised and profoundly outraged by these remarks. Our battalion has always embraced patriotism and has never adopted other world ideologies," the militia said in a statement.

Ok, seems that they are pissed off because they haven't and won't get nor equipment nor training from the US (there's even a copy&paste of their official Facebook).

Russia's foreign minister:

(RT) US lawmakers ban aid to Ukraine neo-Nazis

Russia’s Foreign Ministry praised the amendments, but noted they don’t go nearly far enough.

“It took the American Congress more than a year to realize that this battalion is a gathering of blatant neo-Nazis parading Hitler's SS forces insignia,†said spokesman Alexander Lukashevich. “But better late than never.

Again, not even the Kremlin nor the propaganda media it funds accuses the US of training Azov...

So you are trying to be "more Catholic than the Pope?" Interesting.

[gammadust 12]

I don't how that can be relevant, but i am Portuguese. The most beautiful bay:

[Tonci87 163]

I don't how that can be relevant, but i am Portuguese. The most beautiful bay:

http://i.imgur.com/5BAvYD6l.jpg

OK

Imagine if Spain, for whatever reason, suddenly invaded Faro and declared that from now on it would be their land. Furthermore they activelly build up and support an insurgency in Beja. The Portugese army can´t do much because the insurgents get direct support from Spains much stronger army.

Are you really suggesting that in this case the Portugese people wouldn´t have reasons to want Spanish soldiers out of Portugal?

That is EXACTLY what Russia did with Ukraine.

[mistyronin 1181]

That is EXACTLY what Russia did with Ukraine.

You got it completely wrong.

It would be like if the people from Madrid would start assaulting Police Station and blaming the Portuguese Gov. of Nazi. Creating an insurrection in the Portuguese provinces Beira Alta and Beira Baixa. You know the citizens from Beira have their right to be part of Spain that has a better economy than Portugal. And of course the Gov. of the Popular Republic of Beira would be formed only by Spaniards, because they are really nice people and care a lot of the Beira's population rights.

Basically it would be Spain that saved the poor people from Portugal. And of course the Portuguese from Beira would enjoy having the Spanish Army there, they would even be glad to be bombed with artillery.

In fact, all Portugal should have always been only Spanish, that fascist independentist from the Guerra da Restauração just wanted to ruin Portugal.

Edited June 23, 2015 by MistyRonin

[vilas 477]

the problem of neo-nazism in Ukraine comes from Hlodomor and anti-Ukrainian crimes from past, some people in west do not understand it cause the only occupation they ever witnessed was WW2 German soft occupation,

in case of neo-nazis in Ukraine, you should remember that USSR opression killed ca. 20% of its population (Hlodomor victims) plus there are other issues connected with relations with other nations , neo-nazism is complicated problem with roots in deep past and to eliminate problem roots must be understood "bad neo nazis in Ukraine" is flaten perspective, because to eliminate it, it needs deeper study of history of Ukraine since centuries and some changes that are not on Ukrainian side but on other nations sides,

one shal not remove pain, if pain is caused by nail in body without removing this nail first

Edited June 23, 2015 by vilas

[oxmox 73]

OK

Imagine if Spain, for whatever reason, suddenly invaded Faro and declared that from now on it would be their land. Furthermore they activelly build up and support an insurgency in Beja. The Portugese army can´t do much because the insurgents get direct support from Spains much stronger army.

Are you really suggesting that in this case the Portugese people wouldn´t have reasons to want Spanish soldiers out of Portugal?

That is EXACTLY what Russia did with Ukraine.

Your example would rather fit to Saddam Hussein in 1990, invading Kuwait, defeating the Army, and announcing it was another province of Iraq against the will of the population.

[gammadust 12]

@MistyRonin

Note that those confirm the ban, after Avakov's claims yet still. The amount of credibility you whish to attribute to Avakov's declaration is up to his readers of course. But i'll add that the National Guard are the assumed recipients of such training, and as other scenarios show, the support always lands in the hands of the most extreme members. Azov batallion is a formation under National Guard command.

@Tonci87 @MistyRonin

Metaphors. Everyone as one, including myself.

- Tonci87 you forget that there was a violent far right coup that benefited from begining of US support (PM Yatseniuk instated) at odds with the agreement between EU and Yanukovich for early elections the day previous (21-22 February 2014).

- You may also be ignoring that Portuguese, aside of a short temporary loss of sovereignty, due to a succession crisis, to the Spanish King, enjoy eight centuries of institutional and cultural indepedence.

So i would reformulate your metaphor:

TL:DR follows (it is really long but helps you see my perspective on this conflict, i am sure you will find many inconsistencies, it's a metaphor afterall, though should really help measure my bias towards Ukraine's conflict)

Imagine that, for whatever reason, on the back of exploiting the low standard of life in Belgium, rampant corruption, and general population griefs, Germany starts to paint an appealing dream to it's citizens while attempting to convince Belgium government of a self-serving trade agreement. Unexpectedly, or not so much, when Nederlands shows its scepticism certainly noticing their own trades coming into jeopardy, Brussels postpones and backs away from it. Exacly the point at which opposition parties take it to the streets. Three months have passed and you have burning tires in Brussels, nationalist parties with China representatives on stage giving away rice cookies leading the population discontent, while extreme far right groups with neo-nazi affinities lead charges against the police which exhibits a rare level of incompetence in mantaining order.

Late days and there are dead on the streets, under serious suspicions of foul play by which side we don't exacly know, loads of mutual accusations though. Germany is in talks with the elected President of Belgium, and reaches an agreement, for early elections. China via it's embassy out of the blue designates an opposition leader in the backstage, voiding Germany's opposition trustees. Having lost the trust of his party members and under life threatning circumstances, constitutional President of Belgium flees the country, voiding the agreement. China's designated oposition leader is made Prime Minister days after. Country is in total turmoil after the coup/"revolution", institutions all over the country cease to function properly. Law ceases to be enforced, there are persecutions of state positions holders, to a great extent, by the violent far-right groups, some of which showing nazi symbology, slogans and ideology.

The dream becomes nightmare to the population, Germany 's trade agreement is made hopeless for a while by a bad-for-business overall environment.

The population is grossly divided between the two official national languages. Dutch on one side and French on the other. Only one generation before these two cultures were part of single Groot Nederlands. Centuries previously the stronger neighbor Nederlands, claimed their origins in Brussels, it was called "Brussellan Neder". Under increasing pressure over the Dutch speaking population, the unelected parliament passes a law that removes their right to officialy use it. Tensions remain high on the regions where the latter populations constitute a majority. Disconfort increases among these, and certain institutional measures are taken under the assumption of constitutional autonomies these territories enjoy.

Antwerp entertains protests against Brussels. Nederlands is quite worried since a strategic naval base located in Antwerp risks losing its long term lease. Antwerp poses a referendum to the population to rejoin the Nederlands rolling back to the status quo before the separation some years earlier, results are stronger then previously held referendums on similar issue. Nederlands provides tacit support along the process, welcoming Antwerp weeks after the results.

Majority dutch speaking regions on the border with Nederlands heat up. Precariously armed citizens take positions in cities outskirts and central buildings are taken, face Brussels National Guard formations. Doubts arise of the origin of other armed men, being too professionally uniformed for a mere counter-rebellion, at least siding with them. Brussels not enjoying the same level of support as in french speaking regions in the rest of the country, is unable to effectively counter these defying shows of strength. Small exchanges between armed gunman are not uncommon. Civil war begins to show its ugly head. A once brotherly population begins fighting each other.

Two major cities remain dreaming of the example of Antwerp, where against all odds, was able to avoid deep violence. Brussels commits it self to disallowing such dreams. With the informational support of both Germany and China affiliated media strengthens the demonization of Nederlands, the violence is all their fault. Aliens are all their fault. But the aliens were also natives of those lands. The raising conflict did from then on escalate violently. Dutch rebels are traped in a burning building, it was their incompetence. An air drop bomb in the city center town hall killing several, it was a misused dutch rebel rpg. Some airliners are sidetracked from the usual route over the conflict zone by Brussels traffic control and one of them is fired down, it was the Nederlands weapon, blame Nederlands King devil himself. Nevermind all the suspicious circumstances under which all this happened. It could only have been Neder the expanding imperialist King. Ignore all the contradicting evidence, one version only is allowed, the official French and Chinese versions.

Ongelofelijk !

Edited June 23, 2015 by gammadust

[mistyronin 1181]

@MistyRonin

Note that those confirm the ban, after Avakov's claims yet still. The amount of credibility you whish to attribute to Avakov's declaration is up to his readers of course. But i'll add that the National Guard are the assumed recipients of such training, and as other scenarios show, the support always lands in the hands of the most extreme members. Azov batallion is a formation under National Guard command.

But Avakov only said that "is to be included", which doesn't mean "it is going to happen".

And if both the Azov & the Kremlin don't claim that it has happened...

[Bucic 1]

the problem of neo-nazism in Ukraine comes from Hlodomor and anti-Ukrainian crimes from past, some people in west do not understand it cause the only occupation they ever witnessed was WW2 German soft occupation,

in case of neo-nazis in Ukraine, you should remember that USSR opression killed ca. 20% of its population (Hlodomor victims) plus there are other issues connected with relations with other nations , neo-nazism is complicated problem with roots in deep past and to eliminate problem roots must be understood "bad neo nazis in Ukraine" is flaten perspective, because to eliminate it, it needs deeper study of history of Ukraine since centuries and some changes that are not on Ukrainian side but on other nations sides,

one shal not remove pain, if pain is caused by nail in body without removing this nail first

Well said. Russia is traditionally commited to elimination of conquered nations. Both by de-composition of their fundamental elements and physical elimination of any number of unwilling opposition, and fiercely effective at that. People in the West do not understand that. Fight for survival, literally, radicalizes and the so-called Ukrainian Neo-Nazis are most often generic radicals fascinated with 'cool nazi symbology'.

The good thing I the recent threat brought social activation of large number of citizens instead of radicalization.

---------- Post added at 09:52 ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 ----------

Any significant news on the military situation?

[vilas 477]

People in the West do not understand that. Fight for survival, literally, radicalizes and the so-called Ukrainian Neo-Nazis are most often generic radicals fascinated with 'cool nazi symbology'.

People in the west connect neo-nazis with SS occult movement ,

SS nazism was born, cause SS was occultism sect that believed that ancient Giants race and Aryan race conquered this planet from outer space and Germans are over-human cause of superiority

so they think that in our countries neo-nazism has such roots too that those nazis believe they are uber-menschen (over ? i do no not speak German)

and they are in mistake

i have some politically non correct explanation where from is neonazism, where from is antisemitism, how to fight it (and who should fight it with which methods, and who was victim in history)

but i warn that text might hurt some feelings, but it is based on facts, wikipedia, history

spoiler:

another point of neo-nazis support there is that in 20s-30s a lot of Ukrainians suffered from for example Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Holodomor which was caused by Bolsheviks ,

so Ukrainians had their holocaust over decade before WW2 and lots of them keep it in their memory so when we analyze current Ukrainian political scene, we should not forget that current politicians/people there know about suffering of their grandfathers, grandmothers,

and Bolshevik stereotype and some black cards were :

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism

2) !!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBydokomuna (second link is must read from first letter to the last)!!!

---------------------

so when you have visible (it is not important if Jews were there 5%, 10%, 40% , simply just visibility) than as result neo-nazis have arguments given because if you read second link carefully you will find where from is antisemitism born,

because everyone (or most of us) notifies differently if crime on us is commited by someone from "our" group (ethnic, race, religion, social class, music fans, political group) than if crime is commited by "other" group (race, ethnic, religion, social class, music fan, political group)

neo nazism which borns in Ukraine cannot be deleted "just like that" ,

because it has some serious historical roots which aren't fixed,

Germans hundreds times apologized for WW2, how many times someone apologized for Bolshevik crimes ? how many times Jews apologized for their presence in communist aparatus of terror, how many times Russians apologized for USSR crimes ? moreover Putin administration even try to whitewash history,

so in such conditions it is natural that such movements are being born,

to not make them being stronger, other things must be done than just telling "how bad they are", because from their point of view, they simply feel hate for murdering their grand-grandfathers,

in time of USSR it is estimated that even 6 milions of Ukrainians died from population that was back then circa 30 milions,

so ... it touched every fifth Ukrainian, it would be hard not to influence their memory and cause radicalization , isn't it ?

so neo-nazism cannot be deleted "just like that by happy decree, condemnations, bans, education",

to eliminate those people also had to hear loud "forgive us" , but instead of this they hear "bullshit, antisemitism, rusophobia" - such things will never fix problem from past,

why for example in Poland there are no anti-German mass feelings ? because Germans apologized for WW2 hundreds times and Germans do not deny what happened in WW2, so this problem doesn't exist even in right wing rhetorics,

but when it comes to Jews, Russians, than what?

in Polish aparatus of terror Jews were 18.7% and 40% as leaders/officers, what is Jewish reaction on it ? "antisemitism, hate speech, there were maybe less than 1%"

when one Jew (Israeli citizen) wrote on Jewish forum in Isreal that he feels sorry for what other ethnic groups suffered from Jewish-ethnic commies, than in all posts he was called traitor of his fathers and he only get hundreds of death-threats,

what would be reaction if Russian said to Putin-lovers that he feels sorry for victims of USSR in Poland in Ukraine ?

what is Russian reaction on Stalin issue ? "bullshit, rusophobia, we were only bringing freedom",

if you read carefully second link, it show connection of Jews with Bolsheviks before WW2 and in first days of WW2 including crimes and ethnic crimes on Poles, there is no wikipedia link showing what Jews were doing when Poland was divided since 1790-1918, but as some of you may know, my country was divided and occupied for 123 years by Russian Empire (Tsar), Prussian(German) Empire, Austro-Hungary,

Russian Empire occupation cooperators doing bank business (while Poles were doing uprisings against occupation) were...

in 1919 when Poland get independence and Bolshevik Russia (yet not USSR) invaded Poland than cooperators of Bolsheviks were...

when Poland wanted to be independent state, those cooperators , commies wanted Poland to become 18-th republic of USSR and they wanted Poland to not exist as sovereign state but as a part of USSR,

and it was 20s, 30s of XX c.

first cooperators of NKVD when Poland get occupied by USSR were...

i hope you read carefully wikipedia link

now if you would ask some people from Israel , they would rather see such article on wikipedia as cenzored, and facts in such article they would call lies,

opposite to Germans which do not dare to deny WW2

when people are easier to agree with other people ?

in case when other people admit their mistake,

when people do not like other group of people ?

when despite of proof other side denies,

the same does my nation, for few centuries Ukrainians were our slaves, simply there was such feudal structure in history, like western countries had colonies, than Ukraine was under rule of Polish nobles (despite the fact that they were also such bad treating our Polish ethnic people who were not nobles),

and you have answer why they march with SS symbols in Ukraine , there is no education, bans, condemnations that will help, even "poverty" theory fails (some people say that radical behaviour comes from poverty), only thing that can help is saying sorry, feeling sorry, trying to help victim, admiting mistakes from past, not denying those mistakes, trying to repay loses,

another example :

Germans paid for WW2 losses in many many cases,

and now compare with USSR politcs loses ? confiscation of property issue, crimes against humanity, even slave labor, forced labor issue was never fixed,

who pays benefits to Poles who suffered from USSR as forced labor in 40-50s ? Polish buget

my aunt was born in Syberia when hundreds of thousands of Poles were slaved in camps of Syberia (USSR)

who pays for it to my aunt ? Polish state from Polish budget,

my family was arrested in 1939 and taken to USSR when USSR attacked Poland,

in 1940 my aunt was born in Siberia, in 1958 my family returned to Poland, my aunt meet one foreigner and she escaped from communist Poland to UK than to Canada,

who pays her benefit what she suffered as child ? Polish state pays , not Russia,

such things are causing neo-nazism, not "because one day someone decided to became skinhead blaming Jews for all",

in case of WW2 you (in the west) must remember about one serious problem that you not know from your ground cause you never faced huge property confiscation problem that we faced,

in case of Poland and Ukraine - there was lots of Jewish property, this property was confiscated by communists, now Jews say about compensations, so it is also raising neo-nazi flame,

now tell me that Pole whose family suffered from commies security (among which were 40% Jewish officers, 18.7% Jewish members) has to pay from his taxes for Jewish property confiscated in 1946 (Jewish commies were confiscating property of Jewish non-commies), how can anyone think about avoiding tensions in such situation, when we or Ukrainians are told to pay for person from Isreal for things commited by other person who later moved to Israel (in late 50s, in 1968 when commies get rid from stalinist administration),

how can you explain it to friend of mine (he is 51 y.o. now) whose grandfather was executed in Katyn massacre by commies and who was arrested by NKVD officer who was Jew ?

now how to explain to such person "you know, Russians executed your granfather, Jew arrested him, now you must pay compensation for Jewish property taken by USSR" , what answer do you expect ? that guy will be happy to pay compensation for what was done by murdereres of his grandfather ? we oppose communism with gun in hands in 40s and now we would have to pay for what we oppose, nonsense ?

i found a links some time ago, i do not know how reliable are those links, but those websites were claiming that 60% of high ranked officers of CheKa (predecessor of NKVD) in Ukraine were Jews, how it influences neo-nazis in Ukraine?

cause who pays for people who lost property from communist actions in Poland even if property was lost due to USSR activity ? Polish budget,

when usual man forgives ? when he hears "i am sorry",

but if someone hurted you and he deny it, telling you are "f* wh*" than probably anyone of us thinks opposite,

neo-nazism is not raising because some idiots with IQ below 80 believe in their superiority,

such idiots who believe to be "chosen" are less than 1% in any secular society (in religious society probably much much more if religion says about superiority of it's believers),

how many resolutions condemning Jewish serious ethnic presence in organs such as NKVD were issued by Israeli parliament (they were less than 1 or 5% of society, but they were for example 18% or 39% in some law enforcement organs) ?

if you know such resolutions condemning it, than they would be the best tool to fight with neo-nazis, i do not know such condemning resolutions, i only know denying it and demands to forbid talk about it which only make another percent of neo-nazis grow,

now take a look at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Svoboda-2012.png

2012 elections, Yanukovich regime, western Ukraine in former Polish land - very high percent of neo-nazis , anti-Polish rhetoric,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%B7%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8_%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%96%D0%B2_%D0%B4%D0%BE_%D0%92%D0%A0_%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%97%D0%BD%D0%B8_2014_(%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%96%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D1%96%D1%8F_%D0%92%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%83%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%97%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B5_%D0%BE%D0%B1%E2%80%99%D1%94%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0).png

2014 elections, Ukrainians know about UPA atrocities and crimes, Poland helped Ukraine,

what do you see in picture ? drastical drop of support for neo-nazis , even 3-4 times lower support, in some regions 2 times lower support, in near to Poland regions ... 5 times lower support , a miracle ?

no, open saying about UPA crimes and Ukrainians seen truth plus Poland helped,

suddenly in region where 30% voted neo nazis , now 5% voted , 6 times different result in period of 2 years,

what result they would have if Israel openly condemned their communists and funded some monuments of victims of Hlodomor ? 1% ?

what result will be obtained when Ukraine will join EU and in west Ukraine Jews will come demanding compensations for property (it was Poland before WW2) and some Poles would demand compensation ... you can guess , 2012 result

there is very basic rule - 2nd dynamic rule of Newton - every action has reaction,

because nature tries to reach equilibrium, if you push left wing supported in media, right wing grows , because human, nature prefers equilibrium, the more someone pushes us things not comfortable for us, the more we oppose,

usual human tries to live in balance between right and left , when political correction became "state religion" than "street" oppose it, when commies were forcing commie values - people were conservative and church-loving, when church was forcing its ideas, people became secular,

if you say to someone that he must pay for immigrant accommodation, he becomes anti-immigrant (look at Polish society view on Chechens, first we loved Chechens, we wanted to help them, than they organized gangs, started demand sharia and more and more money without need to work and having 5 kids demanding more and more money, our views changed dramatically, we do not want them here, but first we loved them),

because people prefer equilibrium, not left, neither right, but in the middle, look at pendulum - the more you pull it to left side, the more it returns to right side, EU now very pushes pendulum to left side, too much, in Ukraine pendulum is pushed from Kremlin but when war will end, and fight with separatists will end, and when western greed corporations and banks will come for remaining ashes of Ukrainian property than those armed people will get pissed ,

neo-nazis support is not because some percent of society is mentally ill (mentally ill is 1-2% usually) but because situation is bad,

mentally ill , idiots are lets say 1, 2, max 3% of society, than some movements can have 1, 2, 3% support and it is natural, but when some movements have 10, 20, 30% support, it means that something is not right not with people, but with surrounding area because this area is like pendulum which someone holds on one side , if voting support changed 6 times it shows the answer,

what changed attitude of Ukrainians toward Poles ? our Polish help

what makes people tatoo swastika on arm ? voices shouting "lies, antisemitism, pay compensation" when you show historical proofs,

many nations have black cards in history, simply some have balls to show them and apologize,

some deny it and start aggressive attack when those black cards are shown, and every attack creates counter attack, neonazis are just reaction for it,

if you print book about German SS, there are no 1000 German voices demanding ban such book,

if you print book about Bolsheviks and NKVD/CheKa structure ... you can expect huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge shitstorm including voices shouting to arrest writer and burn all that books an to fund (of course from your budget) 1000 books which deny it and make those books must-read for all under law enforcement threat,

we cannot change our history, we must live with it, some simply can't because they have exclusiveness on being victim, while there were more victims,

this is where from neo-nazis are being born, and to prevent their large support , some nations should do the same what Germans made after WW2, but i do not see chance for it knowing level of denial (probably similar problems exist in Asia between China and Japan over WW2, Nanking and etc.)

Edited June 24, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

People in the west connect neo-nazis with SS occult movement

What? That doesn't make any sense.

Do you still realize that most of the countries "in the West" have neo-nazi groups, right?

So people "in the West" (from US, to Spain, UK, Italy, etc.) know well that the neo nazi groups are not connected at all with the original SS . Neo-Nazi groups are associated with ultra-patriotism and authoritarian ideas, also in a secondary way with racism and xenophobia.

Check in how many countries there are neo-nazi organizations:

(Wikipedia) List of neo-Nazi organizations

You can see for instance how Spanish flags with Celtic & Nazi signs are mixed.

Or in the Football stadiums:

Edited June 24, 2015 by MistyRonin

[vilas 477]

Neo-Nazi groups are associated with ultra-patriotism and authoritarian ideas, also in a secondary way with racism and xenophobia.

which comes from different sources

neonazism across slavic nations (which Hitler told to be under-human, less-human animals) are not the same which across nations told to be better-human , because basic of nazism was occult belief that some people are better-humans and some are animals to serve, in some countries it is matter of historical problems,

in case of Nazis from SS (Himmler) Poles were told to be limited to number of 100 000 people only (kill over 35 milions)

and being only slaves to Aryans,

only half-brain Slavic person can praise idea to kill him and make him slave,

so if they identify with some symbols, they do it for other reasons,

and to destroy neo-nazis, first you must destroy those reasons,

always in all society you have 1% idiots, psychopats, in all countries,

having 1% of idiots is normal, but if 20 % voters identified with such radical movement - than it is not because 20% are stupid in non-DPRK (in DPRK there is brainwash from childhood),

having large percent comes from other reasons, mostly from historical reasons, such reason was activity of Bolsheviks and fact that Third Reich was fighting against Bolsheviks in their "ideas" (propaganda)

cause as you wrote sometime ago yourself - "communism" killed more people than any other ideology (other idology had no opportunity, cause Hitler would kill more if he could, my nation would not exist if war would last 5 years more, cause we were second on list to be gas chambered , than Hitler would kill Russians of course in next step)

Edited June 24, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

neonazism across slavic nations (which Hitler told to be under-human, less-human animals) are not the same which across nations told to be better-human , because basic of nazism was occult belief that some people are better-humans and some are animals to serve, in some countries it is matter of historical problems,

As I told you before the neo-nazi movements have few to do with what the NS-DAP values were, even in the West. It's more about ultra-patriotism.

BTW during the war even in the the Waffen-SS (part of the SS) they incorporated Slavic people and hence adapted their racial theories.

Two divisions with Slavic people:

13th Div (was composed by Croatian)

14th Div (was composed mainly by Slovaks, Dutch, Czechs and Ukrainians) - This one is the one that the Kremlin likes to remember the most.

So no. The Slavic Neo-Nazi, specifically the ones in Ukraine, are not much different than the ones in the US or in Spain.

[vilas 477]

13 Hanshar Croatian was Muslim division not because Slavic, 13th division Hanshar was mostly because Himmler seen Muslims as allies due to will to destroy Jews , so it was totally different reason to create Hanshar division,

Himmler wanted to have as many Muslims as he could to fight with Jews, so there was 13th, there were Caucas-USSR republic divisions such as Azerbeijiani division

also to fight with Orthodox Serbs

but neonazis in Ukraine are different, it is because of what Bolshevik done and whom were Bolsheviks

[mistyronin 1181]

but neonazis in Ukraine are different, it is because of what Bolshevik done and whom were Bolsheviks

As in most of Europe. Or do you think all the people joined the SS for racial motives?

In even a lot of Germans joined the SS for other reasons (to get fast in the upper ranks, to fight Communists, for adventure, etc.).

In Finland a lot of people joined the Waffen-SS because of the USSR invasion.

In Spain a lot of people joined the Blue Division because of the Communist and Russian Support during the Spanish Civil War.

BTW you also have other Slavic composed Waffen-SS Divisions: 7th (Croatia), 15th (Latvia), 19th (Latvia), 20th (Estonia), 23rd (Croatia), 29th(Russian), 30th (Belarus)...

[Bucic 1]

Woah, this is getting nowhere :)

[vilas 477]

Or do you think all the people joined the SS for racial motives?

because of occult believe that someone is chosen by ancient race of Giants and neo-Roman Empire symbols and idology to create new religion , eugenics, uber-human having less-human as slaves and servants, becasue of belief in superiority,

eugenics back than was popular trend in whole western world, everyone wanted to create beautiful bold tall race,

after and during WW2 eugenics ideas were removed because of what Third Reich did,

but large support was cause people believed in theory of uber- and unter- human plus in turning eastern europeans as slave labor to work in their farms

when you talk about Baltic states - they were conscripts !!!

voluntary were in western occupied countries + Muslims from Yugoslavia and Caucas and Middle East to fight with Jews and Orthodox

Latvians, Lithuanians were forced to server in SS as conscript - read more carefully wikipedia

i do not know about Finland,

and Ukrainian SS was voluntary - in this you are right plus some Russian monarchists too (RONA)

Edited June 24, 2015 by vilas

[Tonci87 163]

As I told you before the neo-nazi movements have few to do with what the NS-DAP values were, even in the West. It's more about ultra-patriotism.

BTW during the war even in the the Waffen-SS (part of the SS) they incorporated Slavic people and hence adapted their racial theories.

Two divisions with Slavic people:

13th Div (was composed by Croatian)

Yes and no, it was called the first Croatian SS division but it was mostly composed by Muslims, eg. Bosniaks. The officers were mainly Germans. The exact numbers are not knows but historians think that it had a maximum strenght of 23200 Bosniaks and 2800 croats with Germans as officers and signal battalion staff. Croatians mostly served in the Croatian Home Guard.

[vilas 477]

Misty - SS and nazism was not mainly idea of authoritarian crap, it was idea of superiority over other races (new religion of Third Reich, similar to other superiority ideas in other religions where someone says he is chosen by God to lead others), Nazism was form of religion , Himmler wanted to create new Church, priests were to be SSmen supported by Ahne Nerbe "discoveries", Lebensborn human farms to born beautiful strong tall fit human,

main idea of nazism was to create new human race,

some religions on this planet contain ideas of superiority over others still, which is visible in all what ISIS does or what Talmud says,

in case of Ukraine problem is in Ukrainian history and begin of USSR history (Hlodomor) and in connection of some Jews with Bolsheviks (cause of course those Jews were oppressing other Jews who had free-market and capitalistic vision of economy)

usual Ukrainian Nazi is anti-Russian, anti-Jewish, was anti-Polish - because of history of Ukraine which also suffered a lot (Hlodomor took 20% of their nation in 30s), during Hlodomor as many Ukrainians died as Jews and Poles and other nations in Nazi death camps ,

to fight it, reason must be fought, Poland fought its black cards in relations with Ukrainians by helping a lot, Jews deny it (not talking about oligarchy or bank problems there), Russians are now part of conflict scene, so this problem is yet not to be fixed until both Jews and Russians will fix issues like Poland fixed,

first step in real fight with neo-nazism is admitting history , so far western people could do it with colonies, Germans could do it with WW2, Poles could do it with mistreatment Ukrainian slaves in feudal (kingdom) era, US could do with Native Americans, Australia with Aborigines,

but reaction of Russians on issues connected with crimes of USSR - you seen often in this forum (yes, they fought with Hitler since 1941, yes they gave a huge donation of blood to save us from being gas chambered in name of racial cleansing, yes , we live because they came here on T-34 otherwise Himmler would put us all in gas chambers as under-human race , we cannot deny USSR fight with Hitler since 1941 till 1945, but what was happening since 1939-1941 and from 1945-1956 is other issue) , in case of Jewish involvement in CheKa, NKVD, UB/MBP - i am afraid we will never see anything except "antisemitism" accusations and demands to ban any information about it and replacing facts in history in capsized version of history with demands to pay compensation in milions of dollars,

nazi problem for me is important cause i am from nation, that was planned to extinct as i also hate superiority ideas of "god-chosen ones" or "god given truths" as they are equal to "ancient Giant Race" discoveries of Ahne Nerbe when they claimed there was outer-space race and rest is to be slaves,

because swastika is for me symbol of telling that all Poles should be gas chambered or be just slaves, but for Ukrainians/Baltic States it is symbol of fight with NKVD unfortunately, but as i seen in spoiler - number of voters changed dramatically and it is very good signal when number of votes for them fallen 2, 3 or 6 times in some regions, but those votes also can raise if "compensations" issue will appear

in Poland they had idea that Poland should sell state forests and state ground , privatise it cheap , and milions of dollars give to Jews for WW2 loses as compensation - no joke,

they wanted to change constitution to sell state forests and land to pay another compensations which are demanded by Jews in USA and Israel for what Third Reich and USSR did

so such things born neo-nazis nowadays, not authoritarian ideas, but ideas to sell our ground to pay enormous compensations for WW2 deeds of other countries and other systems

Edited June 24, 2015 by vilas