Ukraine General

Dwarden · March 5, 2002

there was no Russians started rebelling,

in fact there was secret incursion of state and mercenary forces into sovereign neighborhood country

abduction of government officials , theirs family members, torture, extortion, death threads,

physical violence including murders

after that something like rebellion appeared, not before ...

IMHO that's clear violation of multiple treaties

anyway @alesandragutin I'm watching your posts and you crossing the red-thin line ...

posts like "Ukraine joined Nazis" don't remind me you what camp Serbia was in for sometime within WW2

they had no good choice,

occupied by evil Soviet Empire multiple times, brave Red Army failed to protect them from German evil empire

so they went the flow, after the heroic Wermacht failed to protect them against Red so they switched sides again

let me see how it was with your country , oops ...

Tonci87 · July 7, 2009

Police is sent to deal with destructive behavior.

Should that include executions, torture, burning and deportation? Because that is what UN resolution 1199 was about. NATO intervened because the Serbian militia and military forces were using extremelly heavy handed tactics against civilians, it was beginning to spiral out of control just like in the Bosnian war only four years before that. I didnÂ´t see Ukrainian police executing, torturing or deporting Russians in Ukraine, I also didnÂ´t see them burning their homes on purpose to make it impossible for them to come back. Do you see now how the situation is different? This will be my last comment on this, if you still refuse to see the difference, tough luck.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Tonci87

aleksadragutin · March 6, 2013

Should that include executions, torture, burning and deportation? Because that is what UN resolution 1199 was about. NATO intervened because the Serbian militia and military forces were using extremelly heavy handed tactics against civilians, it was beginning to spiral out of control just like in the Bosnian war only four years before that. I didnÂ´t see Ukrainian police executing, torturing or deporting Russians in Ukraine, I also didnÂ´t see them burning their homes on purpose to make it impossible for them to come back. Do you see now how the situation is different? This will be my last comment on this, if you still refuse to see the difference, tough luck.

Nope, that's propaganda stuff. You have a good documentary that oxmox posted some time ago.

Sub-Human · April 27, 2014

According to you, according to Russia it's not. Ukraine can't control it so how come it's still Ukraine? If Russia sees it as an independent teritory, it can have diplomatic relations with it as it pleases. What happened to self determination?

Oh yes, what happened to self-determination?

Grozny in 1999, what happened?

2005-2011, 2013-... cancelling of regional elections in Russia, what happened?

5 year jail sentence for protest for independence, what happened?

(TASS, Russian) http://tass.ru/politika/1979928 By the way, Lavrov says DNR and LNR should remain part of Ukraine.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Sub-Human

Tonci87 · July 7, 2009

By the way, Lavrov says DNR and LNR should remain part of Ukraine.

That is no surprise for me. What would Russia want with the DNR? A completelly destroyed region they would have to invest billions in to bring it up to standard. No Russia is happy to keep Crimea and to distract the world and Ukraine from that by keeping the rebellion in Ukraine going. In the end when there is finally peace in that Region everybody will simply be glad that the fighting stoped and noone will attempt to reunite Crimea and Ukraine.

ProfTournesol · January 29, 2005

By the way, Lavrov says DNR and LNR should remain part of Ukraine.

Should ? That's very kind of him... oh wait, that's not up to him to decide...

aleksadragutin · March 6, 2013

anyway @alesandragutin I'm watching your posts and you crossing the red-thin line ...
posts like "Ukraine joined Nazis" don't remind me you what camp Serbia was in for sometime within WW2

they had no good choice,

occupied by evil Soviet Empire multiple times, brave Red Army failed to protect them from German evil empire

so they went the flow, after the heroic Wermacht failed to protect them against Red so they switched sides again

let me see how it was with your country , oops ...

You're now purposely twisting my words. I said it sarcastically. I meant that you can't punish people for something someone else did a long time ago. And Serbia contributed greatly to the fight against fascism, it carried the fight in Yugoslavia and sustained the most casualties, with Belgrade, and other towns completely destroyed, while Zagreb for example was intact.

Am I going to get an infraction because my views differ from yours? For people who say they are for freedom of speech you sure don't act like it. If you're just looking for a bunch of yesmen then you should have locked the thread long time ago.

R0adki11 · September 3, 2003

You're now purposely twisting my words. I said it sarcastically. I meant that you can't punish people for something someone else did a long time ago. And Serbia contributed greatly to the fight against fascism, it carried the fight in Yugoslavia and sustained the most casualties, with Belgrade, and other towns completely destroyed, while Zagreb for example was intact.
Am I going to get an infraction because my views differ from yours? For people who say they are for freedom of speech you sure don't act like it. If you're just looking for a bunch of yesmen then you should have locked the thread long time ago.

Discussing anything in this topic with a sarcastic nature is really not appropriate at all is it, especially with the seriousness of topic. If you wish to act in such away, please do it else where.

I would heed you to think what you post in this thread in the future, as your previous posts are very much on verge of crossing the line in the sand.

aleksadragutin · March 6, 2013

Discussing anything in this topic with a sarcastic nature is really not appropriate at all is it, especially with the seriousness of topic. If you wish to act in such away, please do it else where.
I would heed you to think what you post in this thread in the future, as your previous posts are very much on verge of crossing the line in the sand.

You have got to be kidding me. Sarcastic nature is not appropriate now? How come it's not appropriate only when I use it?

R0adki11 · September 3, 2003

You have got to be kidding me. Sarcastic nature is not appropriate now? How come it's not appropriate only when I use it?

I am not saying its not appropriate, but only when its used correctly or it the right context.

However when you are discussing a topic such a the Ukraine Conflict or similar, i think that been sarcastic is not appropriate and is somewhat childish, especially such a serious topic as this, which is effecting peoples lives. To put it in plain terms, you don't joke or be sarcastic about death do you.

aleksadragutin · March 6, 2013

I am not saying its not appropriate, but only when its used correctly or it the right context.
However when you are discussing a topic such a the Ukraine Conflict or similar, i think that been sarcastic its not appropriate and is somewhat childish, especially such a serious topic as this, which is effecting peoples lives. To put it in plain terms, you don't joke or be sarcastic about death do you.

Don't know if you have red this topic in the past, but anyone who ever posted has said something sarcastic at one point or another, especially regarding humanitarian aid.

I really don't see how my sarcasm is inappropriate and "you should have been bombed because you're genocidal by nature" is.

Edited May 20, 2015 by aleksadragutin

R0adki11 · September 3, 2003

Don't know if you have red this topic in the past, but anyone who ever posted has said something sarcastic at one point or another, especially regarding humanitarian aid.
I really don't see how my sarcasm is inappropriate and "you should have been bombed because you're genocidal in nature" is.

Before this gets out of hand, all i can say if you feel any post is inappropriate. Please feel free to report it, that's what the report button is there for.

aleksadragutin · March 6, 2013

Before this gets out of hand, all i can say if you feel any post is inappropriate. Please feel free to report it, that's what the report button is there for.

Ok. You can delete the offtopic.

Degman · August 27, 2013

Have we punished Croats for Ustashi war crimes and the murder of almost 400000 Serbs?

Partisan movement > Federative State of Croatia (victory!) > People's Republic of Croatia > Socialist Republic of Croatia > Republic of Croatia

Ustashi movement > Independent State of Croatia (defeat!)

You want to 'punish us' for defeating Fascism and Nazism ? Bad idea, hypocrisy and bunch of dezinformations & propaganda that you should stop with.

@Moderators sorry, but I had to mention it, since nobody else tried to (and yes, it all affects the people reading this).

aleksadragutin · March 6, 2013

Partisan movement > Federative State of Croatia (victory!) > People's Republic of Croatia > Socialist Republic of Croatia > Republic of Croatia
Ustashi movement > Independent State of Croatia (defeat!)

You want to 'punish us' for defeating Fascism and Nazism ? Bad idea, hypocrisy and bunch of dezinformations & propaganda that you should stop with.

@Moderators sorry, but I had to mention it, since nobody else tried to (and yes, it all affects the people reading this).

Again, I was saying that we shouldn't punish someone based on their nationality as Tonci said that we should. This was a rethorical question implying that you can not punish Serbians for something some soldiers may or may not have done.

I'm not saying that Croats as a whole should be punished.

Degman · August 27, 2013

The Serbs as nation were never punished by NATO and UN, but Serbia as country which was involded in one decade of wars in order to surrender and give up from Kosovo that declared independence.

WW2 in Croatia cannot be compared to that, as it was a fight of Croats with different ideologies. These two halfs (Fascist and Anti-fascist) were both Croatian as a whole, so you can't say 'but Croats weren't punished for Ustashi crimes', because that way you mention partisan one too, and partisan one was victorious and since then it represents Croatian nation (Today's USA = victorious Yankees, not responsible for South American enslaving of the black people). If you get what I'm saying.

Anyway, no need to keep this on.

BlenderRUS · July 21, 2012

Another Maidan today in Kiev

https://youtu.be/xl90_bZ-M_Y

mistyronin · August 26, 2003

(BBC) Ukraine crisis: Kiev prisoners 'admit to being in Russian army'

The pair were interviewed at a military hospital in Kiev by members of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE).
"They were armed but had no orders to attack," the security body said.

Russia has not responded to the latest claims, but has previously said the two men were no longer serving soldiers.

The men had travelled to Ukraine on a "reconnaissance mission", according to the OSCE.

"One of them said he had received orders from his military unit to go to Ukraine. He was to 'rotate' after three months. Both of them said they had been to Ukraine 'on missions' before," it added.

St. Jimmy · January 25, 2010

^ Bit old news but it probably got buried in some offtopic couple days ago :P

Cossack monk · September 13, 2014

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--------------------------Sorry Google translation------------------------------------------

Sorry, I do not dispute for you and not for anyone that would ever offend, but in fact!

I am not advocating the UPA, she did not care, but the UPA fought against the Germans and against the advice of the independent Ukraine!

All Ukrainians accused Bandera, by the way (Bandera spent the war in kontslagire have natsystov) in Ukraine was only one SS division Galitchina and in Russia 31 Division served the Nazis! Nobody remembers that this is the second Russian aggression against Ukraine in this century! - 1918 was provozglashina UPR, which destroyed the Russian government napravlinye Red Army! History repeats itself.

THIS WAS A RUSSIAN 31 SS division:

Vlasov and the ROA

***29th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (Russian Nr.1)

***30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS

***Division "Russland" SS

***Russian SS housing

***1st Russian national SS brigade "squad"

Battalion SS Muravyova

Fighting Union of Russian Nationalists

Brotherhood of Russian Truth

German Higher School for Russian officers

The division also Russia - Division "Russland" SS

Volunteer Regiment SS "Varyag"

Green Army special forces

Cossack Stan SS

Committee for the Liberation of the Peoples of Russia (ACPD)

Lokotskaya Republic

People's Socialist Party

National Alliance of Russian Solidarists

Organization Zeppelin

Republic Zueva

RONA

ROA

Russian civilian auxiliary police, Sevastopol

Russian SS housing

Russian detachment of the 9th Army Wehrmacht

Russian national Labor Party

Russian Fascist Party

Jivi

Russian Auxiliary Police (schutzmannschaft)

15th SS Cossack Cavalry Corps

1st Russian national SS brigade "squad", also known as the 1 st Russian national squad SS

29th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (Russian Nr.1)

30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (2nd Russian)

Air ACPD (BBC ROA)

1st Division ROA / Sun ACPD (600th Infantry Division of the Wehrmacht)

2nd Division ROA / Sun ACPD (650th Infantry Division)

600 nd Russian division of the Wehrmacht

602nd Battalion East

645 Battalion

Ronde / RNSD

Asano Brigade - Russian division of the Kwantung Army

Guard Russian Fascist Party

Housing Russian Monarchist Party

In the service of Russian and Japanese secret services Manchu Manchukuo

Â«RussenÂ» (Russia) - the agency of news and propaganda

SS Regiment "Desna"

Russian personnel in the SS Division "Charlemagne"

Russian personnel in the division SS "was averted"

Troop Zueva

BlenderRUS · July 21, 2012

Sorry, I do not dispute for you and not for anyone that would ever offend, but in fact!
I am not advocating the UPA, she did not care, but the UPA fought against the Germans and against the advice of the independent Ukraine!

All Ukrainians accused Bandera, by the way (Bandera spent the war in kontslagire have natsystov) in Ukraine was only one SS division Galitchina and in Russia 31 Division served the Nazis! Nobody remembers that this is the second Russian aggression against Ukraine in this century! - 1918 was provozglashina UPR, which destroyed the Russian government napravlinye Red Army! History repeats itself.

THIS WAS A RUSSIAN 31 SS division:

Vlasov and the ROA...

Year 1918... yeah.. Ukrainian Republic declared independence (sounds familiar, isn't it?).

And in 1921 due to "Riga agreements" this republic has been divided by Poland and USSR...

And what about your SS divisions list:

29th grenadier division - it's division of ROA

30th grenadier division - not Russian, but Belorussian

Division "Russland" SS - its true, there was about 7'000 enemies of communism

Russian SS housing - actually Yugoslavian with imigrants

1st Russian national SS brigade "squad" - formed of prisoners and in august 1943 joined anti-fascists partisans.

Battalion SS Muravyova - also known as Russo-Ukrainian division.

Fighting Union of Russian Nationalists - formed in Suvalki (Poland) of about 25 prisoners. The main goal was diversions and propaganda.

Brotherhood of Russian Truth - this anti-soviet organisation formed in 1921 and ended in 1932.. 7 years before WWII

German Higher School for Russian officers - it is not a division. It was a school of propaganda in Minsk (Belorussia).

The division also Russia - Division "Russland" SS - already was mentioned above!

Volunteer Regiment SS "Varyag" - this regiment has been formed of emigrants in Belgrad (Serbia), about 600 ppl.

Green Army special forces - the same as Division "Russland", already mentioned above!

Cossack Stan SS - military organisation which consisted of cozzacks from south region of USSR, about 24'000 cozzacks.

Committee for the Liberation of the Peoples of Russia - its political unit of ROA, not division.

Lokotskaya Republic - it was occupied region, not division.

People's Socialist Party - political organization, not division which controled occupied nazi-occupied regions.

National Alliance of Russian Solidarists - political organization (btw look at their logo: )

Organization Zeppelin - formed by nazis for diversions and propaganda in USSR.

Republic Zueva - several little villages with "old ritualists" which suffered from communism due to their religion.

RONA - the same as "29th grenadier division" mentioned above

ROA - mainly formed of prisoners, the famous one anti-soviet army, commanded by General Vlasov

Russian civilian auxiliary police, Sevastopol - Occupied Crimean police mostly consisted of Tatars!

Russian SS housing - already mentioned above

Russian detachment of the 9th Army Wehrmacht - part of 9th Wehrmacht Army, consisted of emigrants-interpreters

Russian national Labor Party - School of occupation and propaganda

Russian Fascist Party - political organization in China, consisted of emigrants

Jivi - actually Hilfswilliger, not an army or division, just means volunteers.

Russian Auxiliary Police (schutzmannschaft) - Occupied Crimea's police mostly of Tatars (mentioned above)

15th SS Cossack Cavalry Corps - consisted of Kalmyks, ROA, and Ukrainian SS Division

1st Division ROA - part of ROA

2nd Division ROA - part of ROA

600 nd Russian division of the Wehrmacht - there was no such division (maybe you mean "600nd Wehrmacht division" - the same as 1st Division of ROA)

602nd Battalion East - part of ROA

645 Battalion - there was no such division (fake?)

Ronde / RNSD - it is "RONA" / "29th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS", mentioned above

Asano Brigade - formed of emigrants in Manchukuo (now its China) to fight against Koreans, in WWII about 400 of them were sent to USSR for diversions.

Guard Russian Fascist Party - there was no such division/army

Housing Russian Monarchist Party - no such division/army, FAKE!

In the service of Russian and Japanese secret services Manchu Manchukuo - same as "Asano Brigade", mentioned above

SS Regiment "Desna" - also known as Ukrainian Division

Russian personnel in the SS Division "Charlemagne" - also known as 1-st French Devision, couldnt find any information about russians there in French, Russian and English queries (fake again?).

Russian personnel in the division SS "was averted" - Dirlewanger, prisoners of different nationalities.

Troop Zueva - villages, mentioned above in Republic Zueva.

Seems that your Russian SS Divisions list contains mostly fake / with duplicated (familiar) names or wrong information, also you didnt noticed that some of this divisions consisted only of ukrainians.

Edited May 22, 2015 by BlenderRus

vilas · October 13, 2004

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS_foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts

number of Ukrainians in SS was littler lower than Vlasovs/Rona/Cossacks taken together, although lots of those Russian-ethnicity SS in fact did nothing except fight with their own commies, opposite to SS Galitzien which commited crimes ,so whitewashing UPA doesn't make any sense, cause it was like it was, neither NKVD nor UPA were saint, telling now that UPA were freedomfighters and there were "White-Russians" (monarchists who wanted to back to Tsar era) in SS makes no sense, RONA was commiting crimes too of course http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.S._Sturmbrigade_R.O.N.A. like UA SS : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Galician)

so telling that UPA was saint really doesn't bring any sympathy, UPA had only few minor fights with Germans, but in majority was supporting them in fight with Soviet guerillas, talking about Russian nazis (Rona, monarchist, cossacs etc.) is talking about 0.02% of Russians , giving examples of RONA against argument of Galizien or UPA shows that there was part of percent who supported Hitler, but majority was not supporting, crimes of Nazis commited against my nation were from Germans, RONA, Ukrainians and Muslims in SS (Hanshar afair), so i do not buy UPA as freedomfighters, cause UPA was killing disarmed civilians and torturing them like Japanese were torturing Chinese , Germans were not torturing like UPA was , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

but this is problem:

http://www.wykop.pl/ramka/1315125/wspolczesni-ukraincy-w-mundurach-b-oddaja-hold-bohaterom-dywizji-b-galizien/

http://static.gazeta.ua/img/cache/gallery/447/447121_1_w_1000.jpg

http://static.gazeta.ua/img/cache/gallery/447/447121_11_w_1000.jpg

http://static.gazeta.ua/img/cache/gallery/447/447121_10_w_1000.jpg

http://static.gazeta.ua/img/cache/gallery/447/447121_9_w_1000.jpg

http://static.gazeta.ua/img/cache/gallery/447/447121_17_w_1000.jpg

http://static.gazeta.ua/img/cache/gallery/447/447121_3_w_1000.jpg

burying 3 skeletons of SS men in Ukraine - how could this happen like this after WW2 , anyone who was in SS doesn't deserve any grave

Edited May 22, 2015 by vilas

Cossack monk · September 13, 2014

ÐÐž Ð“Ð›ÐÐ’ÐÐÐ¯ ÐœÐ«Ð¡Ð›Ð¬!

----------------Sorry for the translation Google.-----------------------

It's nice that there was no offense at me, thank you! I have to say because I think.

To argue and refute your translated data can not and will not make sense, except for the Internet accurate information possible sources of false-that to understand where the truth need to spend a lot of time to study the comparison of the facts and the verdict may be oshibochnym.Nuzhny live istochniki.Tak I'll be in the middle (not refute or confirm) .i think the main thing -

With all of the digging in the dirty linen that history is full of glupost.Zhal it all started and how to order from different sides in such a time is not easy for Ukraine and for the whole planet probably! TO MEAN THAT IT IS NOT! Poles accused of the terrible tragedy of Volyn - for which our people they have repeatedly asked for forgiveness! Volyn tragedy is getting more and more tragic than the extermination by the Nazis and the Soviet army and entire cities oblastey.Tragediya big and scary, but I did not hear that the Germans accused the Poles of every minute of their aggression-NO PROFITABLE? Do not remember that the first defenders of the Brest Fortress were Poles and stormed together German troops from the Soviet army together, then held a joint parad.Ni who does not remember how many Ukrainians killed in bondage Polish gentry! What time is hosted Polish gentry in our land.

The Russians do not recall that the Russian state as there are so many it and destroy anything and everything Ukrainian-language, writing, any memories in history.

But the main idea!

Stop living in the past, to remember past grievances, to live the future and for the future, for the sake of our children and our potomkov.Chto Do you want to know about us and remembered descendants? What's in 2015. More people lived, thought yardstick of the Stone Age, killed Others- another for money, seized foreign territories? Or better always said "Oh, we had glorious ancestors, intelligent, we have kept our planet, the world."

Despite the fact that Russia invaded my country, and I wish her all the representatives present here the world - the world of the mind, humanity!

Just excuse me if I do what is not right, not out of malice!

Edited May 22, 2015 by MONAX

vilas · October 13, 2004

it is not "because it is not profitable" but Germans DO NOT DENY their history, Germans are aware and know their history, they do not deny it, so there is nothing to discuss if 2 sides agree, it is closed topic with Germany cause they know history, they criticize their history and they are sad with their history and they do not call to repeat it , opposite to others who praise it , deny it, try to capsize it

so now you see difference ?

noone in Germany except 0.01% neo-nazis will say that SS was freedom fighter army,

noone in Germany will deny holocaust,

but both Russia and Ukraine deny crimes of Stalin/UPA/NKVD/SS Galitzien/Cossack SS etc.

difference is in denying , whitewashing , Putin tries to rewrite history (told many times in Russian topic), now i see that Ukrainian government probably also tries to do it (and tollerate such funerals in SS uniforms)

and you deny wikipedia informations ?

mistyronin · August 26, 2003

^ Bit old news but it probably got buried in some offtopic couple days ago :P

I'm afraid you are quite confused. :p

The piece of news about the captured Russian soldiers confessing being part of the Russian Army to the OSCE monitors is from yesterday (21st of May). Check your search engine of choice ;)

The source they used was the OSCE report of day 20th (released on the 21st):

(OSCE website) Latest from OSCE Special Monitoring Mission (SMM) to Ukraine based on information received as of 19:30 (Kyiv time), 20 May 2015

The SMM visited the two individuals currently held at the military hospital in Kyiv, who received medical treatment. The SMM spoke to the two individuals without the presence of Ukrainian authorities. The SMM assessed their general condition and gathered their accounts about their capture.
One of them said he had received military education in the Russian Federation. Both individuals claimed that they were members of a unit of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. They claimed that they were on a reconnaissance mission. They were armed but had no orders to attack. Both of them said that they came under fire, got injured and were captured on 16 May 2015 at the contact line near Shchastya. One of them said he had received orders from his military unit to go to Ukraine; he was to â€œrotateâ€ after three months. Both of them said they had been to Ukraine â€œon missionsâ€ before. One of them stressed repeatedly that there were no Russian troops involved in fighting in Ukraine. Both said they were provided with a Ukrainian lawyer who visited them today.

*BTW the OSCE was authorized by Putin himself and all the parts as the impartial monitor for the conflict.

Edited May 22, 2015 by MistyRonin

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