Ukraine General

[irritateyou 10]

On the other hand the Russian Gov. (Putin) ordered an illegal hidden military invasion of the sovereign Ukrainian territory of Crimea, and illegally annexed it to Russia. The Kremlin also promoted a violent uprising in Donbass through his FSB officer Strelkov and is fueling it sending troops and equipment.

Strelkov retired in 2013, did he not? The "violent uprising" you talk about began the moment a democratically elected president was ousted. (OSCE verified these 2010 elections)

[aleksadragutin 9]

Because Donbass is in Ukraine, not in Russia.

According to you, according to Russia it's not. Ukraine can't control it so how come it's still Ukraine? If Russia sees it as an independent teritory, it can have diplomatic relations with it as it pleases. What happened to self determination?

[ProfTournesol 956]

According to you, according to Russia it's not. Ukraine can't control it so how come it's still Ukraine?

Yeah, according to the Nazis, Austria was in Germany. According to the Prussians and to the Nazis, Alsace and Moselle were in Germany too. And ?

[aleksadragutin 9]

Yeah, according to the Nazis, Austria was in Germany. According to the Prussians and to the Nazis, Alsace and Moselle were in Germany too. And ?

Yes and according to France Kosovo is not Serbia, so how come Donbass is Ukraine?

[R0adki11 3949]

Yes and according to France Kosovo is not Serbia, so how come Donbass is Ukraine?

Because it is part of country called Ukraine. Also Kosovo is an independent state, no longer part of Serbia.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Because it is part of the borders of country called Ukraine

That doesn't answer it since Kosovo was inside Serbian borders. Why did France (and the others) act like that in one instant and now does the opposite in the other?

[R0adki11 3949]

That doesn't answer it since Kosovo was inside Serbian borders. Why did France (and the others) act like that in one instant and now do the oposite in the other?

I fear you are straying from the topic in hand, could you clarify who you mean by others?

[Tonci87 163]

That doesn't answer it since Kosovo was inside Serbian borders. Why did France (and the others) act like that in one instant and now does the opposite in the other?

Kosovo declared its independence and got invaded by Serbia for that, just like other countries before. And since Serbian troops had a proven trackrecord of commiting horrible warcrimes the NATO decided in favour of a humanitarian intervention before a new Srebrenica happened. Don´t forget that UN resolution 1199 condemned the Serbian operations as "excessive use of force" and threat to peace. The UN just couldn´t do anything past that condemnation since Russia was blocking every other initiative.

I this case here one country (Russia) has invaded another country, annexed part of its land and then activelly spread unrest and war in another huge part. Not really the same situation, isn´t it?

By the way Serbias president Tomislav Nikolic (former head of the greater-Serbia nationalists) just declared that he wants the Kosovo (where Serbians are only a tiny minority) back in Serbia.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Tonci87

[gammadust 12]

Let me help focusing the topic:

the agreed upon status of the regions (Donetsk and Luhansk) by the parties is:

(...)

4 - On the first day after the pullout a dialogue is to start on modalities of conducting local elections in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation and the Law of Ukraine "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts," and also about the future of these districts based on the above-mentioned law.

Without delays, but no later than 30 days from the date of signing of this document, a resolution has to be approved by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, indicating the territory which falls under the special regime in accordance with the law "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts," based in the line set up by the Minsk Memorandum as of 19 September 2014.

(...)

^^ says Minsk II

Lavrov: (...) But we definitely shared a view that it is only possible to resolve the issue through peaceful ways – through a comprehensive and full implementation of the Minsk agreements. And of course, it requires to launch a full-fledged dialogue between Kyiv on the one hand and Donetsk and Luhansk on the other hand.

Kerry: (...) And of course, we did spend time on Ukraine, as Sergey has mentioned. I reiterated America’s view that the Minsk agreements are absolutely, in our judgment, by far the best path, the principal path, to peace, and those agreements must be fully implemented, the sooner the better.

Kerry: (...) Second, there needs to be a real discussion within the Minsk political working groups regarding the path to elections in the Donbas, elections that could be monitored properly and conformed to the Ukrainian constitution, as it set out in Minsk, and also regarding the decentralization that is important, the decentralization status that is important for that region.

my emphasis

^^ Kerry and Lavrov agree

"decentralization" according to Minsk II assumes:

The following measures are to be included in the Ukrainian law "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts":

Freedom from punishment, harassment, and discrimination of persons connected with the events that took place in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts

Right of language self-determination

Participation of local self-government in the appointment of the heads of prosecutors' offices and courts in the particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts

The possibility for central executive bodies to conclude agreements with relevant local authorities on economic, social, and cultural development of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts

The state will provide support for the socio-economic development of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts

Assistance from central executive bodies for cross-border cooperation by particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts with regions of the Russian Federation

The freedom to create people's militia units by decision of local councils to maintain public order in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts

The powers of local council deputies and officials, elected in early elections, appointed by the Verkhovna Rada according to this law, cannot be prematurely terminated

Now of course the situation is that of a non-compliance to the ceasefire. Which force us to investigate the causes of the conflict in the first place.

Why did it occur a Maidan? Why a rebelion raised itself in the Donbas?

[mistyronin 1181]

Thats not logical because ukrainian government came to power in a result of the revolution and started to kill own people which wasn't agree with that

The government that started killing its own people un Ukraine was Yanukovich one, with the close support of the Kremlin. Then the legally and democratically elected parliament in 2012 voted to outsted him (important that he chose to flee to his overlord Russia). How can it be a revolution when the legal parliament ousted a president?

After that Russia invaded military Crimea, and it's still occupying it illegally against all international conventions (condemned by the Russian supported Yanukovich himself)

And after that, and only after that tensions started growing in the east when groups from Russian started causing havoc and provoking violence, same that happened in Odessa.

Strelkov was and still is a FSB agent, even when he was ruling the Donetsk People's Republic defense ministry, he even recognized himself to Rossiya Segodnya.

(IB Times) Igor Strelkov admits Russia FSB affiliation in Kremlin-censored interview

BTW are you comparing military operations done by huge coalitions of countries, with a selfish unilateral invasion done by Russia? Have the NATO annexed any country or part of it?

And you can read my condemnation of some of NATO and US actions in this same forum. So no, two wrongs don't make a right. Putin is a criminal and soon on later should face justice for his acts.

Edited May 19, 2015 by MistyRonin

[sudayev 27]

Outskirts of Mariupol are under artillery a fire, there is also artillery fire coming from Russian positions in Gorlovka and Stachanovsk.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Sudayev

[mistyronin 1181]

Outskirts of Mariupol are under artillery a fire, there is also artillery fire coming from Russian positions in Gorlovka and Stachanovsk.

Any source?

Mmm, I could find this from Reuters:

(Reuters, through Euronews) Battle erupts in eastern Ukraine, four Ukrainian soldiers killed – regional chief

Fighting erupted between Ukrainian government forces and Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine on Tuesday and four Ukrainian servicemen have been killed, the regional administration chief said.

Gennady Moskal, governor of Luhansk region on the border with Russia, said on his website that separatists opened fire on government positions with mortar and artillery near the village of Katerinovka.

“According to preliminary data, four Ukrainian servicemen have been killed and two others have been wounded, one of them seriously,†Moskal said.

[sudayev 27]

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=pl&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tvn24.pl%2Fwojna-na-ukrainie-ciezkie-walki-na-froncie-zachodnim-i-kolo-mariupola%2C543835%2Cs.html&edit-text=

[aleksadragutin 9]

Kosovo declared its independence and got invaded by Serbia for that, just like other countries before. And since Serbian troops had a proven trackrecord of commiting horrible warcrimes the NATO decided in favour of a humanitarian intervention before a new Srebrenica happened. Don´t forget that UN resolution 1199 condemned the Serbian operations as "excessive use of force" and threat to peace. The UN just couldn´t do anything past that condemnation since Russia was blocking every other initiative.

I this case here one country (Russia) has invaded another country, annexed part of its land and then activelly spread unrest and war in another huge part. Not really the same situation, isn´t it?

By the way Serbias president Tomislav Nikolic (former head of the greater-Serbia nationalists) just declared that he wants the Kosovo (where Serbians are only a tiny minority) back in Serbia.

And Ukraine has a track record of cooperating with nazis, does that mean we should bomb them in advance? Plus Kosovo declared independance in 2008. In 99 the Serbian army intervined because 1000 terrorists crossed the Albanian border. The scenario now is exactly the same except the others ( anyone who recognized Kosovo ) are now condeming Russia when they supported Albania 16 years ago. The situation is incredibly similar.

Serbans only became a minority after the genocide in WW2 and the terror attacks in 98, 99.

Edited May 20, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[Tonci87 163]

And Ukraine has a track record of cooperating with nazis, does that mean we should bomb them in advance? Plus Kosovo declared independance in 2008. In 99 the Serbian army intervined because 1000 terrorists crossed the Albanian border. The scenario now is exactly the same except the others ( anyone who recognized Kosovo ) are now condeming Russia when they supported Albania 16 years ago. The situation is incredibly similar.

Serbans only became a minority after the genocide in WW2 and the terror attacks in 98, 99.

UN resolution 1199, there you have all the reasons why NATO intervened. There is no UN resolution condemning Ukraine.

[mistyronin 1181]

Don't get me wrong Tonci and Aleksa, but you seem to really want to talk about the Balkans situation, so why not create a Balkans General thread. I think it would be really interesting for everyone :)

[Tonci87 163]

Don't get me wrong Tonci and Aleksa, but you seem to really want to talk about the Balkans situation, so why not create a Balkans General thread. I think it would be really interesting for everyone :)

It would be a mess just like the Balkan itself, better to leave it out of this forum.

[sudayev 27]

There are voices of upcoming Russian invasion to push the borders of DNR further towards the West up to river Dniepr or at least to seize the entire Azov coastline with major city of the tregion Mariupol. Do you believe that such action is going to happen soon? Then why all these skirmishes, border clashes, UAV flights and massive reinforcements for DNR (Russian manpower and Spec Op supprt along the borderline, AA, Artillery, Heavy, Communications infrastructure and advanced recon tech)?

Edited May 20, 2015 by Sudayev

[Tonci87 163]

There are voices of upcoming Russian invasion to push the borders of DNR further towards the West up to river Dniepr or at least to seize the entire Azov coastline with major city of the tregion Mariupol. Do you believe that such action is going to happen soon? Then why all these skirmishes, border clashes, UAV flights and massive reinforcements for DNR (Russian manpower and Spec Op supprt along the borderline, AA, Artillery, Heavy, Communications infrastructure and advanced recon tech)?

Mariupol is extremelly important because of it´s heavy steel industry and location, whoever controls it has a serious advantage on their hands. I think Mariupol alone makes up over one third of Ukraines Steel production. So my guess is that we will see a DPR offensive quite soon. Somewhere during the Summer is my guess.

[BlenderRUS 6]

Meanwhile today in Kiev.

[aleksadragutin 9]

UN resolution 1199, there you have all the reasons why NATO intervened. There is no UN resolution condemning Ukraine.

That is not a resolution for NATO to intervene, NATO did that without consulting UN. Also that is not my question, my question was why do you treat these situations diferently? As I remember Ukraine also sent the army yet it got your blessing.

[Tonci87 163]

That is not a resolution for NATO to intervene, NATO did that without consulting UN. Also that is not my question, my question was why do you treat these situations diferently? As I remember Ukraine also sent the army yet it got your blessing.

Because they are different situations, if you fail to understand that then arguing with you is pointless.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Because they are different situations, if you fail to understand that then arguing with you is pointless.

Ok since you say they are different, please explain to me why. When someone else is wrong, you bring out the rational thinking, when you're wrong you say something dumb like morally justifying 99 bombing with a statement "it's a punisment because you have a reputation for genocide". Have we punished Croats for Ustashi war crimes and the murder of almost 400000 Serbs? Then you start twisting history. You made a comparison with Georgia but you refuse to make a comparison wirh Kosovo. And then you close up with "you're stupid, i won't argue with you". Would you pleasr explain "rationally" how backing Kosovo and denouncing DPR is not hipocrisy?

[St. Jimmy 272]

Meanwhile today in Kiev.

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Any info what's that all about?

People don't want fences in their city and they start small riot because of that?

/So those camo guys are Titushky or just Ukraine military. They seem to fight under Ukrainan flag. Very confusing stuff. Would be nice to hear more.

Edited May 20, 2015 by St. Jimmy

[aleksadragutin 9]

UN resolution 1199, there you have all the reasons why NATO intervened. There is no UN resolution condemning Ukraine.

Wait, so if there is no UN resolution condemning Ukraine that means that they didn't do the same thing we did?

Let me draw a parallel for you.

In '98 a rebellion starts in Serbias southern province (similar to the problems Macedonia is having right now). The rebellion is supported by a neighbouring country. Police is sent to deal with destructive behavior. The neighbouring country sends over a 1000 terrorists (not soldiers, terrorists, trained to terrorize the Serbain majority villages). The army is sent to aid the police and secure the villages attacked by armed militias. Serbia gets a warning and an order to fall back. We continue the operations against foreign terrorist forces to protect what remains of the Serbian population. We get bombed without UN consent. We fall back, KFOR comes in, Serbs attacked on the streets and churches burned.

In 2014 Russians in Ukraine start rebelling. The rebbelion is supported by a neighbouring country. Police tries to deal with it. The neighbouring country sends soldiers to aid the rebellion. The UA starts an attack on Russian rebels. And now Russia gets a warning (if we follow the previous logic it should have been Ukraine) and an order to fall back. Ukraine continues the operations against the Russian rebels...

See how similar it is, and the only difference is that NATO and EU now support the opposite side.