Ukraine General

[oxmox 73]

I meant the parliament act of honoring them. That probably would have never happen if Russia hadn't invade Ukraine.

Nah, Bandera is a national Hero of the Ukraine, especially in the West-Ukraine. He is adored with monuments, multiple museums. The Ukraine with its population itself is split in west and east with its ethnic groups and political view since more than 100 years, dont forget this. The Ukrainians are a divided nation since a long time.

Stepan Bandera was a famous opposition leader during and after World War 2 and was more or less a synonym for nationalism during the soviet era. He was the leader of the nationalists and independence movement to establish a national state, he was a political leader of the Ukrainian Partisan Army.

During its existence, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army fought against the Poles and the Soviets as their primary opponents, although the organization also fought against the Germans starting from February 1943. From late spring 1944, the UPA and Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists faced with Soviet advances—also temporarily cooperated with German forces against the Soviets and Poles in the hope of creating an independent Ukrainian state.

The army also played a substantial role in ethnic cleansing of the Polish population of Volhynia and East Galicia, as well as subsequent defending the Ukrainian population in Poland from the similar actions, and preventing the deportation of the Ukrainians in southeastern Poland.

Jews played an important role in the Soviet partisan movement in Volhynia and participated in its actions. According to Timothy D. Snyder, the Soviet partisans were known for their brutality, retaliating against entire villages suspected of working with the Germans, killing individuals deemed to be collaborators, and provoking the Germans to attack villages.

There is a lack of consensus among historians about the involvement of the UPA in the massacre of Western Ukraine's Jews. Numerous accounts ascribe to the UPA a role in the killing of Ukrainian Jews under the German occupation. According to Ray Brandon, co-editor of The Shoah in Ukraine, "Jews in hiding in Volhynia saw the UPA as a threat." Other historians, however, do not support the claims that the UPA was involved in anti-Jewish massacres.

The OUN pursued a policy of infiltrating the German police in order to obtain weapons and training for its fighters. In this role they helped the Germans to implement the Final Solution. Although most Jews were actually killed by Germans, the OUN police working for them played a crucial supporting role in the liquidation of 200,000 Jews in Volhynia in the second half of 1942, although in isolated cases Ukrainian policemen also helped Jews to escape. Most of these police deserted in the following spring and joined UPA.

After the end of World War II, the Polish communist army—the People's Army of Poland—fought extensively against the UPA.

The UPA remained active and fought against the People's Republic of Poland until 1947, and against the Soviet Union until 1949.

In the late 50s he was allegedly assassinated by the KGB.

more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army

---------- Post added at 09:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 PM ----------

Ukraine Sets Sights on Joining NATO (NYT, April 9th)

Ukraine, locked in conflict with Russian-backed separatists in its east, on Thursday drew up a new security doctrine denouncing Russia's "aggression" and setting its sights on joining the U.S.-led NATO military alliance.

Oleksander Turchynov, head of the national security council, told a session of the body that Ukraine saw Russian aggression as a "long-standing factor" and viewed NATO membership as "the only reliable external guarantee" of its sovereignty and territorial integrity.

He said European and Euro-Atlantic integration was now a priority for Ukraine's policies and the country would aim to coordinate its armed forces and intelligence services with those of the Western alliance.

Ukraine, at the center of a geo-political tug-of-war between Russia and the West, has grown close to the NATO alliance during the years since independence from the Soviet Union in 1991.

The new military doctrine drawn up by the national security council will become policy once it has been endorsed by a decree from President Petro Poroshenko.

Russian officials have said the radical change of leadership in Kiev raises the strategic threat of U.S. and NATO warships one day being based in the Black Sea waters off Crimea.

.....understandable for the security of the Ukraine, but as if there was no political aim before the conflict to join NATO. One major point for this conflict is because of the EU and NATO expansion and the collision with Russian own sphere of geopolitical interests.

Edited April 9, 2015 by oxmox

[vilas 477]

the basic stuff there was that everyone wanted to rule over others, everyone hated everyone ,

[Bashka_IF 1]

ukranian government official ( Oleksandr Turchynov) threatens to create "dirty" atomic bomb.

prepare to survive, dear european supporters of "young democracy" ...

http://news.rin.ru/eng/news///103078/1/

[ProfTournesol 956]

ukranian government official ( Oleksandr Turchynov) threatens to create "dirty" atomic bomb.

prepare to survive, dear european supporters of "young democracy" ...

http://news.rin.ru/eng/news///103078/1/

Or just wait for another Russian submarine that burns...oh wait...

---------- Post added at 18:16 ---------- Previous post was at 18:11 ----------

That article about Yarosh (BBC - Ukraine crisis: Tension over rise of nationalist Yarosh) shows how complex the situation in Ukraine is. Nationalist nostalgia together with an attempt to integrate (dissolve ?) far right brigades under the control of the regular army.

[beastcat 14]

Sadly many Ukrainians lack the proper education about these things and don't know what those organisations like the OUN and UPA have done, besides the nationalist movement. That is the reason they regard them so high. During soviet times these organisations have only been shown as enemies of the Soviet Union and Russia. Since that is seen as a positive thing now many people stick to these organisations and personalities like Bandera, praising them as leaders of the Ukrainian nationalist movement, not knowing the negative sides.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there aren't that many symbols for the Ukrainian nationalist movement one can stick to and people just don't know about the crimes they have committed. The government is trying to keep the country together and the people want some symbols to look up to. Most Ukrainians I know view Poland positively and don't have an inherent hate towards Russians, just the state of Russia (Mainly because most are "ethnic russian") and I'm sure almost everyone will retract their support once they know about the darker sides of those organisations and personalities.

[St. Jimmy 272]

[Tonci87 163]

That guy is smart.

[oxmox 73]

Martial Law in Ukraine

The bill defines the legal regime of martial law, the procedure for its enforcement and cancellation, the legal basis of activities of state power bodies, military commands, local self-government bodies, enterprises and organizations under martial law, and guarantees of civil and human rights and lawful interests and rights of legal entities.

For instance, they have the right to tighten security of strategic economic and social facilities and regulate the regime of their operation, to compel able-bodied citizens to do community service, to use assets and human resources of enterprises and organizations of any form of property for defense needs, to alienate private or communal property, and to seize assets of state-run enterprises for state needs.

In addition, the military command and the military administrations can enforce a curfew and apply internment (forced relocation) of citizens of other countries threatening to attack or involved in an aggression against Ukraine.

They are also permitted to limit freedom of movement, to check identification and, if necessary, search office and residential premises, luggage and cargo, prohibit public events, and propose a ban on the activity of political parties and public movements which aims to damage Ukrainian independence, security and constitutional system.

Martial law bill passed in first reading by Verkhovna Rada

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/259686.html

Verkhovna Rada a bill â„–2541 (some points google transl.)

* the introduction of compulsory labor service for disabled persons

* expropriation of property located in a private or communal property, seizure of property of state enterprises, state economic associations for the needs of the state in terms of the legal regime of martial law in the manner prescribed by law;

* allowed to enforce of curfew & limit freedom of movement

* prohibition of peaceful assemblies, rallies, marches and demonstrations, and other events;

* ban on the activity of political parties and public movements which aims to damage Ukrainian independence, security and constitutional system.

violation in the manner specified by the Constitution and laws of Ukraine, the issue of banning political parties, public associations, if it is aimed at eliminating the independence of Ukraine, the change of the constitutional order by violent means, violating the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the State, undermining its security, illegal hobby State power, propaganda for war, violence, incitement to ethnic, racial or religious hatred, attacks on human rights and freedoms, public health;

* regulation of telecommunications companies, printing companies, publishing houses, radio and television, teleradiotsentrov, theaters and other enterprises, institutions, organizations, and institutions of culture and the media, as well as the use of local radio stations, television centers and printers for military purposes and advocacy work among the troops and the population; prohibition of work receiving and transmitting stations of personal and collective use and transfer of information over computer networks;

* internment (forced settlement) citizens of a foreign country that threatens to attack and carries out aggression against Ukraine.

*military command and administration can regulate the activity of enterprises, telecommunication systems, print shops and publishing houses, ban the selling of armaments, strong chemicals and alcoholic beverages, establish a special regime of the production and distribution of narcotic-containing medicines, seize firearms, ammunition and cold steel from civilians, and compel individuals and legal entities to accommodate servicemen on their premises.

112UA News Agency

http://www.rada.gov.ua/en/news/News/107242.html

Seems like the time ends for democracy, freedom & rights for a while....

Edited April 11, 2015 by oxmox

[spooky lynx 73]

Seems like the time ends for democracy, freedom & rights for a while....

They just admitted de jure things that were happening for a months already.

BTW looking at recent law condemning communist regime, banning all the Soviet symbols and massive renaming (I can't imagine what a huge amount of money is needed for it), I'm waiting for condemning and cancellation of some other communist regime things like joining of Western Ukraine, Donbass and Crimea done by bloody commies. Let's Rada review all the aspects of Soviet regime and eliminate all its consequences.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Spooky Lynx

[blu3sman 11]

Seems like the time ends for democracy, freedom & rights for a while....

How's that different from any other martial law in the world?

[aleksadragutin 9]

How's that different from any other martial law in the world?

They basically legalized ethnic cleansing and dictatorship.

[mistyronin 1181]

They basically legalized ethnic cleansing and dictatorship.

Would you mind explaining how a pretty average martial law means ethnic cleansing and dictatorship?

Martial Law is a resource that can be used in any kind of country, in fact pretty much all democratic constitutions around the World have a Martial Law disposition in the case of certain events (even Canada declared it in the 70s).

If it was ethnic cleansing... why are there so many Russian-Speaking Ukrainian and even Russian citizens fighting inside the Ukrainian Army, National Guard and volunteer battalions?

Edited April 12, 2015 by MistyRonin

[aleksadragutin 9]

Forced settlement of an "aggressor" ethnic group and prohibition of political parties and protests don't sound like a part of an average martial law.

[mistyronin 1181]

Forced settlement of an "aggressor" ethnic group and prohibition of political parties and protests don't sound like a part of an average martial law.

First, Martial Law precisely is this. The temporarily ban of all public events & protests, among other rights suspended or limited.

Uhm, let's read the words of that "Forced settlement of ethnic groups":

- Internment (forced settlement) citizens of a foreign country that threatens to attack and carries out aggression against Ukraine

It's not talking about any Ukrainian native ethnic group that has to be eradicated (ethnic cleansing), but about internment of any foreign citizens that threatens to attack and/or carry out an aggression against Ukraine.

Which happens in any democratic country in the World. Try to go to Canada and threaten to attack or carry an aggression against its people... You'll see where you are gonna end...

Or you are telling me that if I go to Serbia, and threaten to attack or carry an aggression against let's say a governmental office no one is gonna do anything about it...

Heck in Greece, two BI devs were interned in jail for taking pics in a touristic island...

Edited April 12, 2015 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

- Internment (forced settlement) citizens of a foreign country that threatens to attack and carries out aggression against Ukraine

You know, this applies to citizens of a foreign country? Russians living in Ukraine are still citizens of Ukraine, not Russia. This martial law is no different from anywhere else on the world

[aleksadragutin 9]

You know, this applies to citizens of a foreign country? Russians living in Ukraine are still citizens of Ukraine, not Russia. This martial law is no different from anywhere else on the world

How can you resettle someone who hasn't settled yet (If they are living in Ukraine, they have to have Ukrainian citizenship, otherwise it's just deportation)? If I'm not mistaking Ukraine has already defined Russia as an aggressor country.

And would you explain how is baning protests and suspending political parties going to contribute to the effort against the rebels?

Edited April 12, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[oxmox 73]

How's that different from any other martial law in the world?

Well, it is like it is in the Ukraine and I dont know how are the differences in other nations. Certain legislations from the Parliament are highly likely ajdusted to the situation.

They basically legalized ethnic cleansing and dictatorship.

Martial Law is possible in every country and it is often temporary.

Of course there are curtailments of rights, freedom and of the democratic system. Martial Law has forms of a dictatorship but it is used in a state of emergency.

"In the Roman Republic, the dictatorship (lat dictatura.) was called an institution of constitutional law: The Senate gave a dictator in times of emergency temporary extraordinary authority to defend the state order and to restore it. "

But Common, dont expect or specualate about the worst possible only about ethnic cleansing or whatever and lets see.

(from wiki)

"Martial law is the imposition of the highest-ranking military officer as the military governor or as the head of the government, thus removing all power from the previous executive, legislative, and judicial branches of government." It is usually imposed temporarily when the government or civilian authorities fail to function effectively.

or.....

"Martial law can be used by governments to enforce their rule over the public. Such incidents may occur after a coup d'état (such as Thailand in 2006 and 2014);"

(I just wonder what is the reason or what do they expect with Martial Law in the Ukraine)

Edited April 12, 2015 by oxmox

[blu3sman 11]

I just wonder what is the reason or what do they expect with Martial Law in the Ukraine

There's a high risk of a major escalation or full out war, you can't efficiently fight if youre constrained with peace-time regulations and laws.

In any active warzone things like "private property", "freedom of speach" don't exist, that's a fact of life.

[mistyronin 1181]

In fact the Martial Law is and extreme and temporary measure that is used in times of war but also during natural catastrophes, armed sedition, big terrorist attacks etc.; when the government is unable to keep order with the usual services (police, firefightes, medics, etc.) For instance in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina.

In democracies is the Parliament (legislative power) who usually determines when and for how long the Martial Law will last...

What it basically does is to temporally restrict certain basic rights like freedom of speech, freedom of movement, Habeas Corpus (hence you can be detained for no reason), etc.

It also usually give extra powers to the armed forces. Basically the armed forces turn into Police, Firefighters, and all the services required. You could say that for the duration of the measure the society becomes militarized (because the armed forces have a more efficient structure and more versatility, tho less democratic of course).

But not only the armed forces are given extra power, as we could see during Katrina in the US, even mercenaries (sorry, private contractors), were allowed extra powers in order to assist the government.

In the Ukrainian case it took the Gov a long time to use it. In case of rebellion/invasion its usually the first measure taken in most of the countries, at least in the area.

The US considered to promulgate Martial Law during the 2014 Ferguson riots.

Edited April 13, 2015 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

The keyword in all of this is temporally. Did they say for how long the law is going to be in effect?

[aleksadragutin 9]

The keyword in all of this is temporally. Did they say for how long the law is going to be in effect?

If the situation stays like this, it could be another year, or longer.

[blu3sman 11]

I think there's a little misunderstanding here. It is not in effect, even in eastern regions.

Parliament just voted for bill that

defines the legal regime of martial law, the procedure for its enforcement and cancellation, the legal basis of activities of state power bodies, military commands, local self-government bodies, enterprises and organizations under martial law, and guarantees of civil and human rights and lawful interests and rights of legal entities.

[Tonci87 163]

[St. Jimmy 272]

Yeah cheasefire :D Artillery day is everyday and hundreds of bullets are fired. There seems to be some fighting going on to the west of the Donetsk airport at Peski and east of Mariupol.

[Tonci87 163]

And I bet both sides are blaming each other. Although if the fighting is at Peski and Mariupol then this would suggest that the rebels are preparing attacks. Hoestly I don´t think that the people there will be able to live in peace until either:

A: Ukraine has reconquered the territory

B: Russia has annexed it.

Until then it will be the same stalemate as it was in Croatia while the "peace plans" were in effect.

During this time both sides will train and prepare their troops. However I think that next time the rebels will have a much harder time dealing with the Ukrainian army. They were only able to advance so well because they had the superior gear, especially tanks supplied by Russia. If the west supplies Ukraine with modern AT weapons then the rebels will loose their most valuable assets rather fast.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Tonci87