Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

Yeah, you will find such kind of people on both sides in this conflict.

Exactly. That was my point, you can find those kinds of people in both sides in Ukraine, but also in most of the conflicts and even in most of the armies in the World.

[Tonci87 163]

To me it´s quite insane that people who basically have opposing ideologies fight together vs. people who also have internally the same opposing ideologies. Madness, But hey, that is war.

[ProfTournesol 956]

All that backgrounds are also the main ones in "foreign units" like the French Foreign Legion, that receive their fare share of ex-fighters from other conflicts around the World, people that had no future, etc.

Yup, and that is what the FFL is good at since the 19th century : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-31957162

[sudayev 27]

As the conflict in eastern Ukraine continues, thousands of foreign soldiers are joining the fight alongside the pro-Russia separatists of the Donetsk People's Republic (DNR). While the majority of these soldiers are from Russia, a growing number of volunteers from western Europe, and even as far as Brazil, are joining the ranks of the separatist forces.

[beastcat 14]

The USA has sent 30 Humvees to Ukraine which are now used in a modified variant.

[Tonci87 163]

Same shit that was going on in Yugoslavia (Well, at least these guys didn´t burn any churches). Every other form of christianity outside of orthodoxie is american propaganda..... FPDR

[sudayev 27]

Plagiarism scandal in Russia: Hitler’s speech copied for Crimea annexation

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/03/16/plagiarism-scandal-in-russia-hitlers-speech-copied-for-crimea-annexation/

[oxmox 73]

Plagiarism scandal in Russia: Hitler’s speech copied for Crimea annexation

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/03/16/plagiarism-scandal-in-russia-hitlers-speech-copied-for-crimea-annexation/

edit: Tonci87 did link the textform

Edited March 19, 2015 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

Plagiarism scandal in Russia: Hitler’s speech copied for Crimea annexation

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/03/16/plagiarism-scandal-in-russia-hitlers-speech-copied-for-crimea-annexation/

Sorry to bust the bubble, but the Hitler speech was a bit switched around in that link. Here is the full speech if you can speak German or use google translator. As you can see, Hitlers speech was a lot longer.

http://www.georg-elser-arbeitskreis.de/texts/hitler-1939-09-01.htm

[sudayev 27]

yes but there are similar elements that rationalizing the anschluss

[Tonci87 163]

yes but there are similar elements that rationalizing the anschluss

That is true, the excuses are basically the same

[oxmox 73]

Danzig was amongs other points i.e. East Prussia, annexion of the Memelland by Lithuania, minorities etc.. one of the political issues for Hitler and Poland did first demand that Danzig should be integrated into their nation but instead Danzig changed into a Free City. Any Referendum in Danzig was blocked by the League of Nations. The "Anschluss" with Danzig was maybe a political wish, part of the general aim to undo the Versaille Treaty, and was supported by the population in this city but it did not happen as a single event. On the 1st September ´39 the Invasion of Poland started.

The word Anschluss is actually only used with Austria and arguments aswell disputes exist to call it a true annexion.

Edited March 21, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

The word Anschluss is actually only used with Austria and arguments aswell disputes exist to call it a true annexion.

In the historical forums (meaning History faculties and scientific books, not internet forums), I only heard the word Anschluss referred to the Third Reich's annexation of Austria.

On the other hand, I haven't seen almost any dispute about if it was a true annexation. It's widely acknowledged that it was a military invasion & annexation, there are few to none doubts about that.

Hitler proposed the fake referendum to try to legitimize his crime. But you just have to check the ballots:

Basically it occurred in a similar fashion as when Russia invaded & annexed Crimea (fake referendum included).

[oxmox 73]

In the historical forums (meaning History faculties and scientific books, not internet forums), I only heard the word Anschluss referred to the Third Reich's annexation of Austria.

On the other hand, I haven't seen almost any dispute about if it was a true annexation. It's widely acknowledged that it was a military invasion & annexation, there are few to none doubts about that.

Hitler proposed the fake referendum to try to legitimize his crime. But you just have to check the ballots:

http://www.lbi.org/web-exhibits/Goldscheider/NaziEra/StimmzettelAnschlussSmall.jpg

Basically it occurred in a similar fashion as when Russia invaded & annexed Crimea (fake referendum included).

A summary to understand why the "Anschluss" had a big popularity amongst the population in Austria....its an important part of the History to understand that the political aim of a reunification did start already longer before the Anschluss in 1938. The Anschluss in 1938 was for sure a military occupation, a Coup and blackmail of Schuschnigg, ten thousands of arrests, but the majority of the population was in favour of it.

The closing report of the historical comission of Austria calls the "Anschluss": A boarder case between Annexion, Fusion and Occupation

After the Habsburg Monarchy did reign the germans for around 1000 years, Franz II. was the last Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire and the first Emperor of Austria in 1804. In 1815 the German Confederation was founded with 39 german states to replace the old Holy Roman Empire, it collapsed due to rivalries within between Prussia and Austria. The seperation with Austria did occure for the next decades.

In 1918 after the defeat of both monarchies and the decay of Austrian-Hungary the "german question" did raise again after both parliaments in Vienna and Berlin did enshrine in their new constitutions reunification decrees.

In the same year the german part of the former multi ethnic Austrian-Hungary Monarchy did merge into the ´Republic of German-Austria´ which should be an element of the ´German Republic´ (later the Weimar Republic).

However, under pressure of the victorious powers any reunification was refused. The base for it was the Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye in 1919. This did not mean that the wish in both countries of a reunification did end.

In 1931 Austria and the Weimar Republic did try another approach with the German-Austrian Custom Union.

Vogorous protests did start because it would prepare the Anschluss with Austria/Reunification of both countries.

The plan of a customs union failed in the late summer of 1931, when the French government took advantage of Austria financial problems in the Great Depression and a waiver of the project made ​​it dependent on international credit help. A ruling by the Permanent Court of International Justice was also incompatible with the Geneva Protocol of 1922, in which Austria had committed to maintain its economic independence.

March 16th 1931-Reichstag Weimar Republic

"Politically, the Anschluss is not ready yet economically he could be now promoted, under most cautious consideration of external difficulties in such an approach."

In 1933 the democracy in Austria did end with the dictatorship of Engelbert Dollfuß, the option for elections did end and not to speak about any reunification wishes. In the same year Hitler took the power in the German Reich and the democratic Weimar Republic ceased to exist.

Edited March 22, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

If that was to be truth, and the Austrian were so willing to unite with Germany why did Hitler need to send the SA & SS trucks to provoke havok around in 1934? But the coup was not successful... Why did it require a military invasion in the 38? Why the fake referendum?

Of course a minority wanted it, in the same way as in Crimea, but not the majority; because if they wanted they would got it directly.

Edited March 22, 2015 by MistyRonin

[oxmox 73]

Here is a short official summary from the Historical German Museum in Berlin... you could google translate it.

https://www.dhm.de/lemo/kapitel/ns-regime/aussenpolitik/anschluss-oesterreich-1938.html

Because if they wanted they would get it directly ?

The victorious powers were against any reunification and a new political and economical strong germany, besides that Austria itself was a dicatorship where austro-facism did rule. Especially the harsh and unfair Treaty of Versaille did lead to the raise of Hitlers power and one of his aims was to invert the Treaty. The Weimar Republic did try it with its politics but Hitler did it with extremism and force.

Only a minority did want it ? ....Its not only about the history of the Anschluss which I did post, but there was even more. The Third Reich was economical very successful and Hitler was like a magnet to the germans in Austria. It wasnt just a minority, it was rather a mass hysteria.

Thats a news article about it from Spiegel but you can read about it also in history books, I think you are missing some parts and I wonder what is your source....

click me

(a part of it google transl. )

The reasons for the "mass enthusiasm, even hysteria" (the Viennese historian Wolfgang Neugebauer) were complex: 1918 disintegrate the Austro-Hungarian monarchy, November 12 In 1918 in its place, the Republic of German Austria. A traumatic event - the new small state lacked from the beginning state awareness, large parts of the population were in favor of union with Germany. As far more serious, however, proved the economic crisis with their rampant unemployment in February 1933, 600,000 Austrians without a job.

The takeover is running smoothly

Anti-democratic beliefs are booming, many want a strong leader, a strong leader. The NSDAP is increasingly influential: In the state elections in 1932 in Vienna, Salzburg and Lower Austria, the Nazis enjoyed considerable electoral gains. Many hope that the "party of the people" finally a better life. "Austria," says Brigitte Bailer, scientific director of the Documentation Centre of Austrian Resistance (DÖW), "is Nazi Germany fell like a ripe fruit into the lap".

Edited March 22, 2015 by oxmox

[sudayev 27]

Ukraine ex-President Yanukovych's son 'drowns in lake'

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32009480

Interesting...

[oxmox 73]

Ukraine Gets Billions, and Delivers Nothing (Die Welt, March 22nd)

Ukraine demands from the West more money and gets it. In return Kiev refused reforms - and announces already at times that the debts are unlikely to be settled.

It is quite possible that Natalya Jaresko early December of last year pretty much knew what she was getting herself as she took over the leadership of the Ministry of Finance of Ukraine. Finally, the American-born from a family of Ukrainian immigrants had ever been Head of the Economic Department at the US Embassy in Kiev.

Moreover, after the Orange Revolution she did act as an advisor to the President of Ukraine in terms of foreign investment and established herself at that time an investment company with numerous investments in Ukraine.

Now she did manifest in an interview with the "Wall Street Journal" that promises by the West and by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) billions in loans would not be enough to rebuild the country. To seriously re-start the economy and restore an economic growth requires additional resources, Jaresko told the newspaper and before talking to the US government.

Ukraine announces already a haircut

This is a surprising admission of failure. About a week ago precisely just on March 11th, the Executive Board of the International Monetary Fund had approved a new four-year credit facility in the amount of $ 17.5 billion , which in turn, is part of an international aid program, amounting to about $ 40 billion.

Individual states or groups of states such as the European Union will pay for the remaining amount of the IMF money in the coming years.

....she said clear that financiers can not expect to see again their money completely. ... at the end about 15 billion dollars will be saved and simply not be repaid.

Russia has always been suspicious

The second largest creditor, is the Russian state....

Aside from the fact that Moscow has passed through his actions regarding Crimea and eastern Ukraine international law limits the Russians seem in financial terms towards the Ukraine to be more cautious and realistic than the West. In fact, they did not had good experiences with the neighboring country and its changing governments in terms of debt repayment.

Too often has Kiev - even about on the issue of gas payments - just hold out their hands and rely on outside help. In a way, the Kremlin was alright with it because this behavior has created dependencies and an internally prosperous Ukraine was seen more as a threat. Realistically, the Ukraine has not progressed on reforms.

Values ​​of the Orange Revolution are forgotten

The good image is gone which the country had procured through the impressive Orange Revolution from 2004 and gave rise to the hope that there would a fundamental transformation of this country completed, the direction of Western standards along the lines of Georgia.

The resume is sobering: Ten years after the start of new beginnings in the country largely everything systemically remained the same. The oligarchy has not been eliminated, but even got a new quality by Igor Kolomoiski, one of the richest Ukrainians, in the previous year even became governor and controlls politically at least two regions.

In general, small and medium enterprises were in favor of oligarchic conglomerates and got systematically disadvantaged and fleeced. Arbitrariness in officials - such as in tax collection - is responsible. Then there are by the judiciary tolerated violent takeovers.

Rampant corruption

In the offices even though sometimes the heads were replaced, but officials continue their economical damaging going-ons, says Vladimir Dubrovsky, chief economist of the Kiev Institute of Economic Research Case Ukraine.

Old clan chiefs and new rulers stood again in an alliance, describes Yaroslav Romanchuk, Ukraine expert and head of the Minsk Institute of Economics Mises, the situation: "The declared zero tolerance to corruption has become a zero activity."

A western manager in the construction industry has thus brought the difference between Russia and Ukraine in conversation some time ago to the point: ".. In Russia I was once ripped off in Ukraine twice"

Is the IMF naive?

The conditions of the IMF, the Ukraine has asked since its independence in 1991 repeatedly about money, were complied only very poor.

While financial obligations were always met, such as the IMF notes. But a political unity to market reforms have always lacked.

.... because the IMF was itself too little demanding, with regards to the suppression of corruption and the oligarchic system so Dubrovsky.

If you believe the current versions of the IMF, it is about to change everything. Apart from the listed risks namely to see many stabilization measures that would have broad political support and commitment, says the IMF. The current government is the most reform-orientated in the past 25 years.

--> As of now the Ukraine is behind Portugal, Greece and Ireland as the fourth largest IMF borrowers and sits on 10.6 percent of all outstanding IMF loans.

Apparently, gepolitics is forcing this generous maneuvers. Wheras the in-house finance department of the IMF warns to be cautios: The success of the loan program depends not only on the development of the conflict with Russia in eastern Ukraine, writes the Risk Manager. The behavior of the Ukrainian authorities is at least as important.

Die Welt - google transl.

Edited March 22, 2015 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

Interesting...

I would say it´s interesting, but it happened in Russia....

Ukrainian news website Levvy Bereg quoted sources from his inner circle saying Viktor Yanukovych Jr, 33, was taking part in a sporting event when the Volkswagen van he was driving fell through ice.

He drowned while five other passengers escaped, it said.

Russian website RBK quoted local officials as saying the incident happened on Saturday, after the group drove on to the ice to take photographs.

It seems they drove onto a frozen lake or river, pretty stupid idea if you ask me.

[mistyronin 1181]

...

One thing is what the Third Reich propaganda said, and the other what the history books say. And I'm still to see any historical document where it says that the majority of the Austrian people wanted the union with Germany in 1934-38.

If they had, they would had supported the coup in July '34.

[oxmox 73]

One thing is what the Third Reich propaganda said, and the other what the history books say. And I'm still to see any historical document where it says that the majority of the Austrian people wanted the union with Germany in 1934-38.

If they had, they would had supported the coup in July '34.

Of course Iam open about your own readings and opinions and some of your questions are reasonable, but I did deliver sources which describes the situation and I have not seen any from you about your statements and if its just a news article from well known magazines/newspapers instead of other sources. It would be new for me to hear that only a minority would be in favour of Hitler and the Anschluss in 1938 in Austria.

Edited March 22, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

I did deliver sources which describes the situation and I have not seen any from you about your statements and if its just a news article from well known magazines/newspapers and not books

Basically that, I was talking about historical documents or at least books about them, not magazines/newspapers. On the other hand your sources doesn't specify that there was a majority of Austrian people in favor of the union, only a quote of a writer talking about "Enthusiasm" in part of the society.

- - -

Same can be said in Crimea, there was Enthusiasm inside part of the colonial Russian-speaking population, but there was dread among the native Tatars and Ukrainians.

[oxmox 73]

If you want I can post a link to a scientific text from a University Prof. for modern history in Austria, the paper describes the event in general with the specific title "Was the Anschluss forced ?".

I would like to know from where or what source you come to the conclusion that only a minority was in favour of this event. Of course the whole population was not for the Anschluss and the propganda, promises, intimidations, political prosecutions, jewish prosecutions, arrests, type of elections,etc. did play a role aswell. The thesis to see Austria as a pure victim role changed longer ago and not only when it comes to the Anschluss.

Edited March 22, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

If you want I can post a link to a scientific text from a University Prof. for modern history in Austria, the paper describes the event in general with the specific title "Was the Anschluss forced ?".

That would be nice, send me a PM with it.

I would like to know from where or what source you come to the conclusion that only a minority was in favour of this event.

Most of the main nowadays books about the subject, besides the historic events; Hitler needed to invade it militarily to make sure of it. And I'm talking about the union / annexation. Not talking about if Hitler or his policies were more or less followed in Austria.

The thesis to see Austria as a pure victim role changed longer ago and not only when it comes to the Anschluss.

I haven't said that. I just said that all sources and main books on the subject doesn't point to a majority favoring the union / annexation.

- - -

Same happened in Crimea. Putin didn't think that most of the Crimeans would favor the union, if not, he wouldn't invaded it and later rigged the referendum.

[oxmox 73]

In the late 80´s the thesis of the victim role changed and a more differentiated view with the nazi past occured. The paper from Prof. Gerhard Botz for Austrian History, outlines this with antithesis, thesis and end fazit in these years. The title of the paper transl.: "Was the Anschluss forced" ?

http://www.demokratiezentrum.org/fileadmin/media/img/Gedenktage/GO_2.3_Botz.pdf

Edited March 23, 2015 by oxmox