Ukraine General

[Sub-Human 10]

As I seem to remember, Putin did offer a deal which involved Ukraine not taking steps towards the EU, that's why the protests started in the first place. I shouldn't use the word naive a lot, but that really is a naive look at things.

Here's an idea, why not encourage trading with EU and become a partner? Why is anything involving NATO, EU or the US - suddenly an enemy of Russian state?

[beastcat 14]

So yeah, thats what "the west" and russia call a "cease-fire" and withdrawal of heavy weapons.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Here's an idea, why not encourage trading with EU and become a partner? Why is anything involving NATO, EU or the US - suddenly an enemy of Russian state?

Because EU membership eventually leads to NATO membership, and in spite of what you may think, NATO means no good for those not in it (why would it). We all know that the cold war never really stopped and NATO sure isn't going to be quiet about Russia is getting stronger and more of a competition.

[oxmox 73]

So yeah, thats what "the west" and russia call a "cease-fire" and withdrawal of heavy weapons.

Well, its fragile but allegedly the military situation in general calmed down....

Ukraine's Poroshenko says rebels have withdrawn significant amount of heavy weapons

(Reuters) - Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said on Monday pro-Russian rebels had withdrawn a significant amount of weaponry from the front-lines in eastern Ukraine in accordance with a three-week-old ceasefire deal.

Attacks have fallen significantly, but accusations of continued violence on both sides show the fragility of the peace accord agreed in Minsk last month, which calls for the withdrawal of heavy weapons from the frontline.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/09/us-ukraine-crisis-poroshenko-idUSKBN0M528B20150309

Edited March 10, 2015 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

Those Azov guys may be effective, but damn they are really huge idiots too.....
I bet many of them aren´t nazis (and just do what the others do), but a huge chunk certainly is, they don´t help the image of the Ukrainian army and they sure won´t win any hearts and minds amongst the russian population.
If the Ukrainian military has any brains they will disband that battallion and spread the personel amongst other battallions.

[mistyronin 1181]

Shooting your self with a "rifle" must be pretty awkward.

Not really, a well known case is president Salvador Allende's suicide when Pinochet committed the coup-of-state in Chile.

(The Guardian) Chilean president Salvador Allende committed suicide, autopsy confirms

British ballistics expert David Prayer said Allende died of two shots fired from an assault rifle that was held between his legs and under his chin and was set to fire automatically. The bullets blew out the top of his head and killed him instantly.

The forensics team's conclusion was unanimous. Spanish expert Francisco Etxeberria said: "We have absolutely no doubt" that Allende committed suicide.

Edited March 11, 2015 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

That factory is bloody huge :eek:

[oxmox 73]

Because EU membership eventually leads to NATO membership, and in spite of what you may think, NATO means no good for those not in it (why would it). We all know that the cold war never really stopped and NATO sure isn't going to be quiet about Russia is getting stronger and more of a competition.

Already the EU Association Agreement involves military cooperation with the EU, it isnt only about economical agreements.

EU-Association Agreement with Ukraine:

the Ukraine is committed not only to the "free market" but also to military and defense industrial ties with the EU.

* participation of Ukraine in EU-led civilian and military crisis management operations and important excercises and training activities, including those that are executed under the Common Security and Defence Policy "(Article 10)

* integration in the EU battle groups (EUEG) - a military unit adhering to the Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP) of the European Union (EU).

* armaments industry to the Ukraine on and these lines: ". The Ukraine and the European Defense Agency will establish close contacts to discuss the improvement of military capabilities" (Article 10). These military and security cooperation should be "to outer space" (Article 7).

Edited March 11, 2015 by oxmox

[aleksadragutin 9]

Already the EU Association Agreement involves military cooperation with the EU, it isnt only about economical agreements.

EU-Association Agreement with Ukraine:

the Ukraine is committed not only to the "free market" but also to military and defense industrial ties with the EU.

* participation of Ukraine in EU-led civilian and military crisis management operations and important excercises and training activities, including those that are executed under the Common Security and Defence Policy "(Article 10)

* integration in the EU battle groups (EUEG) - a military unit adhering to the Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP) of the European Union (EU).

* armaments industry to the Ukraine on and these lines: ". The Ukraine and the European Defense Agency will establish close contacts to discuss the improvement of military capabilities" (Article 10). These military and security cooperation should be "to outer space" (Article 7).

Yes, those are steps taken to ensure later integration with the alliance.

[oxmox 73]

Yes, those are steps taken to ensure later integration with the alliance.

The point is, the EU-Association Agreement involves already a military cooperation and integration without beeing a possible later member of the EU or NATO.

But if a military cooperation is involved with the west it includes NATO anyway.

This alone already amongst other things indicates that the Ukraine was in a situation to get teared up and thats what did happen.

Article 7

Foreign and security policy

1. The Parties shall intensify their dialogue and cooperation and promote gradual convergence in the area of foreign

and security policy, including the Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP), and shall address in particular issues of

conflict prevention and crisis management, regional stability, disarmament, non-proliferation, arms control and arms

export control as well as enhanced mutually-beneficial dialogue in the field of space. Cooperation will be based on

common values and mutual interests, and shall aim at increasing policy convergence and effectiveness, and promoting

joint policy planning. To this end, the Parties shall make use of bilateral, international and regional fora.

http://www.eeas.europa.eu/ukraine/docs/association_agreement_ukraine_2014_en.pdf

Edited March 11, 2015 by oxmox

[aleksadragutin 9]

True, but the later membership of NATO is indisputable. There would be no military integration if the aim wasn't to eventually be in the same pact.

[oxmox 73]

True, but the later membership of NATO is indisputable. There would be no military integration if the aim wasn't to eventually be in the same pact.

Already with the sign of the EU-Association Agreement the Ukraine did decide to military cooperate with the West which includes NATO and therefore follow their politics.

The military controversial exist already before the Ukraine even joins NATO.

The EU-Association Agreement is not only about economics like many news did write about it.

By the way............

Gorshenin-Institute

The independant Gorshenin-Institute did start a a survey on the Maidan, 2nd December 2013.

56% of the Protester did take part because they wanted to see the overthrow of the Government

only 28% mentioned the EU-Asscociation Agreement as a reason

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/rbth/society/10522793/divided-ukraine-russia-eu.html

Edited March 11, 2015 by oxmox

[oxmox 73]

Saakashvili: Ukrainians are the last line of defence between the USA and Russia

Former President of Georgia and current advisor of the Ukrainian Government, Micheil Saakashvilli, said on TV that people are dying for the EU flag and the European idea. They are the last line of defence between the United States and Russia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbIwdk_Dhgs

[mistyronin 1181]

Saakashvili: Ukrainians are the last line of defence between the USA and Russia

Former President of Georgia and current advisor of the Ukrainian Government, Micheil Saakashvilli, said on TV that people are dying for the EU flag and the European idea. They are the last line of defence between the United States and Russia.

IMHO he's a bit of a drama-queen. If he had said between the EU and Russia, then maybe...

Already with the sign of the EU-Association Agreement the Ukraine did decide to military cooperate with the West which includes NATO and therefore follow their politics.

Are we forgetting that even Putin's Russia was cooperating with NATO before Putin ordered the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Before, when everyone thought that Putin wanted peace and stability for Russia, but he instead started an imperialist war to expand Russia annexing other countries (like Ukraine's Crimea).

(Reuters) NATO suspends cooperation with Russia over Ukraine crisis

They did joint military exercises, were inside different cooperation programs, etc. Russia bought different weapons systems from NATO members like the Italian Iveco LMV, Heck even NATO troops marched in a Russian parade in Moscow in 2010:

Edited March 12, 2015 by MistyRonin

[aleksadragutin 9]

Ok, no one said that they didn't cooperate.

IMHO he's a bit of a drama-queen. If he had said between the EU and Russia, then maybe...

He wasn't completely wrong. USA is the dominant force that is controlling NATO and currently shaping European geopolitical landscape. I mean, what did the Germans do when they found out that CIA was spying on them? Nothing. That speaks for itself.

[Tonci87 163]

Ok, no one said that they didn't cooperate.

He wasn't completely wrong. USA is the dominant force that is controlling NATO and currently shaping European geopolitical landscape. I mean, what did the Germans do when they found out that CIA was spying on them? Nothing. That speaks for itself.

Yeah that was very sad, but I think you don´t see the true motives. Germany profits immensly from the cooperation with the NSA and the GCHQ, Merkel simply didn´t want to loose those valuable sources of information, that is why nothing happened, not because the US told her to stay quiet.

[mistyronin 1181]

He wasn't completely wrong. USA is the dominant force that is controlling NATO and currently shaping European geopolitical landscape

That the US is the main force in NATO, right, after all they pay practically half of the budget of the alliance and put most of the assets...

On the other side, the US does not shape the European Geopolitical landscape. Specially after the creation of the EU, Europe as a whole is more independent than ever in modern times. But it's a nice old Cold War tale.

I mean, what did the Germans do when they found out that CIA was spying on them? Nothing. That speaks for itself.

You don't seem to know much about the intelligence agencies... Of course everyone is spying on everyone, that was why the Germans did nothing.

Even Germans "accidentally" spied on Kerry and Clinton in 2013... :j:

( BBC ) Germany accused of spying on Kerry and Clinton

[oxmox 73]

IMHO he's a bit of a drama-queen. If he had said between the EU and Russia, then maybe...

Are we forgetting that even Putin's Russia was cooperating with NATO before Putin ordered the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Before, when everyone thought that Putin wanted peace and stability for Russia, but he instead started an imperialist war to expand Russia annexing other countries (like Ukraine's Crimea).

(Reuters) NATO suspends cooperation with Russia over Ukraine crisis

They did joint military exercises, were inside different cooperation programs, etc. Russia bought different weapons systems from NATO members like the Italian Iveco LMV, Heck even NATO troops marched in a Russian parade in Moscow in 2010:

Actually Russia and Putins politics were quiete open towards western countries in the first years for a general approach and he was the first who was talking about a wide economical vision, talking about Lisbon to Vladivostok. "We propose the creation of a harmonious economic community stretching from Lisbon to Vladivostok."

The Russia-NATO Council is another part in the puzzle , but NATO did make mistakes here to make the best out of it. This council wasnt used much and got neglected, for example during the Georgia Conflict the Council wasnt used at all.

--> You are right that there was a cooperation between the NATO and Russia to a certain degree, but the EU-Association Agreement reads that it isnt only about cooperation it is about a military integration aswell i.e. EUEG.

And btw, Juncker did make the suggestion about an EU-Army. Actually, dont we have this already ?

A good example is the EU Navy mission along Somalia batteling the Piracy and protecting transport shipping.

Another reason why I did post about it, is the fact that the media were talking just about economical points when it comes to this agreement but the point of a military integration and cooperation wasnt mentioned. That was mentioned rather in TV discussions between experts and Journalists and therefore I did share this info. It is only a puzzle amongst many others in the whole conflict and about the struggles for the EU-Association Agreement.

On the other side, the US does not shape the European Geopolitical landscape.

The US has a big influence on Europe and has its own vision for world order and geopolitical/economical interest in the eastern regions. A "classic" book about geopolitics in Eurasia is available from Brzezinski. The US has interests and it fingers in the Ukraine and plays a role, like they did already in 2004 in another color revolution.

The conflict about the Ukraine is already a geopolitical conflict and such interests collide with Russia, in addition it shows lately the interests of the USA and their push in this conflict are not in agreement with the interests of the EU. And the recent EU solo action was actually a surprise.

You don't seem to know much about the intelligence agencies... Of course everyone is spying on everyone, that was why the Germans did nothing.

Even Germans "accidentally" spied on Kerry and Clinton in 2013...

( BBC ) Germany accused of spying on Kerry and Clinton

there is no comparison with the worldwide intensity and scope and there is no comparison with releases by Snowden... dont make me laugh.

Edited March 12, 2015 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

New Vice report, waaaay to graphic to link it here. Ukrainian POWs are used by the separatists to clean up the Donetsk airport and dig out the dead.

[oxmox 73]

Suicide Or Homicide? In Ukraine, Old-Guard Officials Dying Mysteriously

This year Ukraine has seen a bizarre string of deaths involving high-ranking officials, including a ex-city mayor, a former railway executive, and the former head of the state body in charge of privatization.

A total of five officials (in the meanwhile six with Melnyk 10th March) died in a single 34-day period between January 28 and February 28. In each case, the deaths have been ruled probable suicides. But the victims' political allegiances and job histories have led many in Ukraine to suspect that the men were in fact murdered:

January 26 -- Mykola Serhiyenko

The former first deputy chief of the state-run Ukrainian Railways, died in his Kyiv home after apparently shooting himself with a registered hunting rifle.

Serhiyenko, who worked with Ukrainian Railways from April 2010 to April 2014, had been appointed to the post by Mykola Azarov, the former prime minister under Viktor Yanukovych.

January 29 -- Oleksiy Kolesnyk

Former head of the Kharkiv regional government, died after apparently hanging himself.

Kolesnyk, 64, did not leave a suicide note, but media and investigators have hinted he may have killed himself, noting that his death took place on the birthday of his friend and fellow politician, former Kharkiv Governor and Party of Regions ideologue Yevhen Kushnaryov..

February 25 -- Serhiy Walter

The former mayor of the southeastern city of Melitopol, reportedly hanged himself.

A member of the Party of Regions who had served as the head of Melitopol since 2010.

Walter was forced to attend some 145 hearings during his trial, with prosecutors calling for 14 years' imprisonment. Throughout the proceedings, he insisted he was innocent. Walter was due to attend a new hearing on the day he died.

February 26 -- Oleksandr Bordyuh

One day after Walter's death, the body of the 47-year-old deputy chief of the Melitopol police, Oleksandr Bordyuh, was found in a garage.

Media reported that the cause of Bordyuh's death was ruled a "hypertensive crisis," or stroke -- a term that police frequently use in instances of suicide.

February 28 -- Mykhaylo Chechetov

ex-deputy chairman of the Party of Regions faction in Ukraine's parliament.

The death came just days after Chechetov was arrested for fraud and abuse of office stemming from his two years at the helm of the powerful State Property Fund.

March 10th -- Stanislav Melnyk

Former member of the Ukrainian parliament found dead, Party of Regions.

A former member of the Ukrainian parliament (Party of Regions) and businessman Stanislav Melnyk has been found dead in his apartment in the town of Ukrainka in the Kyiv Oblast. Early reports suggest that he had committed a suicide after shooting himself with a rifle.

The recent string of deaths comes 10 years after two more resonant cases that followed closely on the heels of the Orange Revolution. Heorhiy Kirpa, transport minister under Kuchma, was found dead in late December, 2004. His death came two days after the rerun of the second round of presidential elections that handed Yushchenko the win over Yanukovych.

The following March, Kuchma's former interior minister, Yuriy Kravchenko, died one day after being called as a witness in the resurrected case of slain journalist Heorhiy Gongadze.

Both deaths were officially ruled suicides -- even though, in Kravchenko's case, it had taken two gunshots to kill him.

http://www.rferl.org/content/suicide-homicide-ukraine-officials/26888375.html

Next politician can be added to the list and dies by suicide, from a gunshot to the neck........

Yanukovych ally Peklushenko in new Ukraine mystery death

A former regional governor has been found dead in Ukraine, the latest in a series of deaths involving allies of deposed President Viktor Yanukovych.

March 12th -- Oleksandr Peklushenko, former head of Zaporizhzhya, had suffered a gunshot wound to the neck and authorities said initial inquiries pointed to suicide. A member of Ukraine's Party of the Regions, he was being investigated over the dispersal of protesters last year.

An interior ministry source told Interfax Ukraine news agency Mr Peklushenko, 60, had committed suicide in the village of Sonyachne, near Zaporizhzhya city.

However officials said other theories were being investigated including murder.

At least six officials or ex-officials with links to Yanukovych's government have died this year in cases ruled probable suicides, but the victims' political allegiances and job histories have fueled suspicions of foul play.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31855700

http://www.rferl.org/content/former-ukraine-regional-governor-dead/26896759.html

Edited March 12, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

Actually Russia and Putins politics were quiete open towards western countries in the first years for a general approach and he was the first who was talking about a wide economical vision, talking about Lisbon to Vladivostok. "We propose the creation of a harmonious economic community stretching from Lisbon to Vladivostok."

Yes, the EU even was embracing Russia. European business investing a lot of millions allowing Russia to grow, etc. But then Putin decided to disrespect everyone. And now Russia economy is falling again.

The US has a big influence on Europe and has its own vision for world order and geopolitical/economical interest in the eastern regions.

That the US has a big influence on Europe, yeah, in the same way, Russia or China do too. You seem to see the US as some almighty power...

there is no comparison with the worldwide intensity and scope and there is no comparison with releases by Snowden... dont make me laugh.

The only difference is that Snowden showed the stuff, but there are other intelligence services that manage more and better info than the US. You really know really few about them.

If there were Snowdens in other countries you'd be surprised...

- - -

On the subject of a proper EU's joint Army, that's an idea that has been going back and forth for a long time. Nothing new under the sun.

[oxmox 73]

Yes, the EU even was embracing Russia. European business investing a lot of millions allowing Russia to grow, etc. But then Putin decided to disrespect everyone. And now Russia economy is falling again.

That the US has a big influence on Europe, yeah, in the same way, Russia or China do too. You seem to see the US as some almighty power...

The only difference is that Snowden showed the stuff, but there are other intelligence services that manage more and better info than the US. You really know really few about them.

If there were Snowdens in other countries you'd be surprised...

- - -

On the subject of a proper EU's joint Army, that's an idea that has been going back and forth for a long time. Nothing new under the sun.

International companies are still investing into Russia and the stock markets are the best performing ones of the year writes CNBC. The economical problems is mainly the result of the manipulated Oil price by Saudi Arabia and in addtion the economical sanctions caused due to the conflict in the Ukraine. The sanctions were not only initiated by the EU but the US did also urge to do so like Vice President Bieden said.

The USA is our most important partner and the majority of Euoropean countries are in a tight transatlantic alliance. Militarily, but also economical and political. The US is the leading country of western nations, it is not only the leading power in the world with an influence on its allied it is an enourmous factor worldwide. America is not almighty but it plays a very significant role in our world with its supremacy.

If you are interested in geoplitics and to understand the view about US interests and influence worldwide, the book "The Grand Chessboard - american primacy and its geostrategic imperatives" by Zbigniew Brzeziński is a must read and in the meanwhile a "classic" book not only to better understand our worldpolitics. The book is very eye opening, and its a must read to understand in what type of world we are actually living in.

A short summary about the book can be read here: summary of the book

Iam pretty sure you can get the book in a library or you just buy it online, I have even seen that you can read the pdf online in english or german - I will give you a hint:

"The Grand Chessboard - american primacy and its geostrategic imperatives" by Zbigniew Brzeziński

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=the+grand+chessboard+pdf

The only difference is that Snowden showed the stuff ?

Do you really want to say that german intelligence is doing its work in the same same dimensions worldwide, same scope and intensity ?

The US has the biggest intelligence organisations worldwide, the budget is more than $50 billion not talking about the enormous amount of employees.

German intern and extern intelligence together has a budget which is less than €800 million and the staff who is working for them is only a fraction in comparison.

Edited March 15, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

(Al Jazeera) Russia was 'ready for nuclear alert' over Crimea

Moscow was ready to put its nuclear forces on alert to ensure Russia's annexation of Crimea from Ukraine last year, President Vladimir Putin has said in a pre-recorded documentary.

Putin also said that Russia had saved the life of Ukraine's former pro-Moscow president, Viktor Yanukovich, who he said had been in danger after 'revolutionaries' seized power following weeks of violent street protests in Kiev last year, the Reuters news agency reported.

[Tonci87 163]

Insanity, complete insanity....,.

[drebin052 323]

Well the guy has a Napoleon Complex after all. I wouldn't be surprised if this "interview" (much like the Crimea documentary) was just more chest thumping to make himself look powerful in the media.

"I had my finger on the red button. You Eurowussies better be grateful that I remembered UK/France/US has nukes as well chose to spare you at the time!"