Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

What Hitler is doing in WW2, that now doing Germany, USA, NATO and EU, against Russia.

But the end to new the Nazi and Fascist governement is very, very close. Soon Ukraine will be free from nazi's

That points are silly, or at least hilarious.

First from the military strategic point, Putin's Russia is closer to the Hitler's Germany in 1936-39 (including Olympic Games & annexations).

It's clear for everyone that Russia has been the aggressor (some may say that for good reasons, other for bad).

I'm also pretty sure that no one, with a little knowledge of politics, thinks that the Ukrainian Gov is Fascist nor Nazi; in fact quite the opposite seeing their clashes with the right wing parties. In fact your words are a bit of an insult for all of those who suffered under the Fascist & Nazi regimes.

On your statement of Greece & Italy having worst social problems than the average African country, shows your really poor understanding of economics (you only have to check the Index of Quality of life). In fact Italy it's one of the richest countries in the world, with a GDP higher than Russia with less inhabitants (GDP index by country).

How can you compare a country that is member of the G8 (the most Industrialized Nations on Earth) to an average African country?

In fact the EU as a whole is the first and most powerful economy of the World according to the different indexes, above the US and China. Check it's countries in the indexes of GDP. They are far away from bankruptcy, in fact just the opposite. Most of the EU countries are among the best economies in the World.

And no, none of them has an important part of the population or gov that wants to be outside the EU (the only exception is UK, but it has been since the beginning). Even countries that had suffered a lot during the late 2000s crisis want by a huge majority to keep inside the EU (like Spain).

About the US, no one doubts that it's being having a neo-capitalist imperialist behavior (specially during the Cold War), but far away from the expansionist Russia, that was also the first country to invade, bomb and annex a huge amount of countries: all Easter Europe, Afghanistan, Georgia, Ukraine. Also involved in the Ethiopy-Somali war, Angolan Civil War, Eritrean War, India-Pakistan war, Laotian Civil War, Korean war and Tajikistan war.

PS: On a side note, check the GDP per capita (or how rich is a citizen per country), you'll see that both Italy & Greece citizens are richer than Russian citizens ( and the majority of the EU countries). :rolleyes:

Edited April 7, 2015 by MistyRonin
Adding PS

[Tonci87 163]

Russian artillery? lol

Probably according to CNN and BBC. hahaha

Did you found any proof that is Russian Artillery? I suppose No.

What Hitler is doing in WW2, that now doing Germany, USA, NATO and EU, against Russia.

But the end to new the Nazi and Fascist governement is very, very close. Soon Ukraine will be free from nazi's

Most countries that joined to EU are on on the brink of bankruptcy, just look at Greece, Italy have worst social problem then some country in Africa, Austria want to leave euro zone, same for Czech, Zeman says he don't want to see american emassy in Czech.

After all war crimes that america and nato do from 1945 until now, and you still believe in this shit? Compare war history between USA and Russia. How many Vietnamese and cambodian peope's died from americans napalm bombs, panama, iraq, cuba, afghanistan, yugoslavia, bomb's with uranium. In every war, they are first to join, why, because to colonize the country.

Death to fascism, freedom to the people!

Oh boy, I don´t even know where to start...Fuck it, that post is pure nonsense from start to finish. Educate yourself a bit before you post stuff like this on the internet where everyone can see how clueless you are.

[drebin052 324]

After all war crimes that america and nato do from 1945 until now, and you still believe in this shit? Compare war history between USA and Russia. How many Vietnamese and cambodian peope's died from americans napalm bombs, panama, iraq, cuba, afghanistan, yugoslavia, bomb's with uranium. In every war, they are first to join, why, because to colonize the country.

Death to fascism, freedom to the people!

Whataboutism

I'm sure all those Czechs, Hungarians, Poles, Lithuanians, Estonians and Latvians were so happy to see the Russians so much that they volunteered to get crushed by Russian tanks!

Funny how you mention Afghanistan as well. Looks like what Russia did in the 1980's just flew past your memory too. But who cares anyways, America is the fourth Reich. Glory to Mother Russia! Death to America!1!111!111!!!

/sarcasm

[mistyronin 1181]

I'm sure all those Czechs, Hungarians, Poles, Lithuanians, Estonians and Latvians were so happy to see the Russians so much that they volunteered to get crushed by Russian tanks!

That without counting the millions of deads provoked by Stalin alone in concentration camps, that are way higher than Hitler.

[vilas 477]

Russian artillery? lol

Probably according to CNN and BBC. hahaha

Did you found any proof that is Russian Artillery? I suppose No.

What Hitler is doing in WW2, that now doing Germany, USA, NATO and EU, against Russia.

But the end to new the Nazi and Fascist governement is very, very close. Soon Ukraine will be free from nazi's

Most countries that joined to EU are on on the brink of bankruptcy, just look at Greece, Italy have worst social problem then some country in Africa, Austria want to leave euro zone, same for Czech, Zeman says he don't want to see american emassy in Czech.

After all war crimes that america and nato do from 1945 until now, and you still believe in this shit? Compare war history between USA and Russia. How many Vietnamese and cambodian peope's died from americans napalm bombs, panama, iraq, cuba, afghanistan, yugoslavia, bomb's with uranium. In every war, they are first to join, why, because to colonize the country.

Death to fascism, freedom to the people!

you should read more, maybe in Serbian schools they didn't teach about such things as stalinism, commie crimes, WW2 and pre WW2 Russian occupation of for example Baltic states or Poland,

about moving people to Syberia camps and forced labor

if you miss such facts - you should educate, cause Russian Empire in XIX century occupied other countries, USSR made a lot of crimes against some nations,

proofs about Russian equipment are many times given if you want to google it

Ukraine is far from fascism, Russia is closer - check definition of what fascism is

Italy is poor ? maybe you should visit and see newest cars, air condition, lots of luxury products there and people in newest fashion, only problem of Italy is mass immigration from northern Africa,

the fact that US bombed some commies to stop spread of communism virus is effect of previous communist crimes which Stalin made, they simply knew what communism was back than thanx to reports of their intels about what Stalin made

probably you should educate yourself with knowledge about Stalin crimes to understand such things , US foreign politics was from time to time bad, but compare it with USSR politics till 50s,

if you say about comparing Russia and USA:

- occupation of Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, some Causasian nations, Finland till 1918s,

- extermination of Poles by Tsar, by Stalin, extermination of Ukrainians, Chechens, Tatars,

- wars against countries that get independence after WW1 such as my country which was attacked because commies wanted to build USSR empire bigger than Tsar empire was,

- milions of victims of communist terror in USSR

- hundres of thousands of victims of anti-communist movement after WW2 (those who wanted independence of their countries after WW2)

[Degman 73]

the fact that US bombed some commies to stop spread of communism virus is effect of previous communist crimes which Stalin made, they simply knew what communism was back than thanx to reports of their intels about what Stalin made

Well, I would prefer to stay with 'Stalinism', as the Communism is pure idealism of uthopia that we can partly include in the politics for good. Socialism = social = good for the people. Stalin used to call himself a Communist, but he was just another fascist in different package. Socialism worked out well in former Yugoslavia and it still wasn't in its half, especially full light.

Also, I really, really doubt that USA is doing anything because of their soft heart, but only profit and interests. That's how the world functions today. Both Western and Eastern governments invents terrorism, crisis, etc in order to fill their pockets and spread their sphere of influence. Let's not even mention the military industry, free market and such as things.

Of course, nothing of these justifies obvious Russian aggression on the Ukraine, but we don't have to select our favurite side and praise it like the last ignorants of human waste. USA had its moments too and it shouldnt be considered to be 'a good guy'.

[vilas 477]

look at confiscation of private property in 20s, 30s , so called colectivisation -Stalin building communism by nationalizing private property of farmers (a lot of them were killed when they refused to give their property to Kolhoz)

afaik you didn't get such opression in former Y, so you do not know how real communism looked like

it was as following:

- you have property ? bullet in your head, your property confiscated and now be part of Kolhoz which will be managed by commie party director - it was pure banditism, mafia

read about colectivisation during Lenin rule and in early 20s, read about "Kulaks"

read about Lenin ideas to create (another form of uberhuman) homo sovieticus that is not self-thining human but following commie ideas, about create monkey-man soldiers

experiments that Mengele made in WW2 were also ideas of commies some years before (but failed ideas and on muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch smaller scale than Mengele)

communism in USSR was simply for of banditism to steal property which belonged to people for generations

property of my family also was confiscated

Edited April 7, 2015 by vilas

[Degman 73]

look at confiscation of private property in 20s, 30s , so called colectivisation -Stalin building communism by nationalizing private property of farmers (a lot of them were killed when they refused to give their property to Kolhoz)

This is exactly why I would prefer to stick with 'Stalinism', instead of the Communism. The Communism (Socialism) is an idea of a system in which the people works in order to contribute to the society, with no government to divide them. I would write more, but it is enought to say that Stalin wasn't a Communist, but just another dictator and fascist working against its own people in order to accomplish his egoistic goals. That is exactly the opposite from the Communism.

[vilas 477]

yes, but it never existed in utopian form,

so communism is best short to conect with Stalin, North Korea, China in 50s

[Degman 73]

yes, but it never existed in utopian form,

so communism is best short to conect with Stalin, North Korea, China in 50s

By that logic we let these monsters win and we make a good system look like something bad in eyes of the people. If I buy weapons for me and my paramilitary formation, start going around Croatia killing the innocent, saying loud "Im a democrat! I'm a democrat!", does that make the Democracy a bad system ? I mean, it is bad this or that way, but I am making a point here. We should not reject something just because some idiots in the past used to scream that they are part of it.

I'm an anti-fascist! I'm an anti-fascist! I will open concentration camps and burn all the Jews, Slavs, blacks and gypsyes.

Hurah!

[Tonci87 163]

Well In my belief true communism simply can´t work due to human nature and greed. Someone who has power over other people will always seek to: Keep that power, expand that power, gain from that power. So as soon as you have a government, or a group of people who stand above the rest you can´t have communism.

[vilas 477]

Well In my belief true communism simply can´t work due to human nature and greed. Someone who has power over other people will always seek to: Keep that power, expand that power, gain from that power. So as soon as you have a government, or a group of people who stand above the rest you can´t have communism.

plus property is also deep in human nature, US is the best example where you use gun to defend it and our frustration when we cannot protect property in such manner

[mistyronin 1181]

Well In my belief true communism simply can´t work due to human nature and greed. Someone who has power over other people will always seek to: Keep that power, expand that power, gain from that power. So as soon as you have a government, or a group of people who stand above the rest you can´t have communism.

I agree. The thing is that the ideal communism is impossible as it would require everyone to be clones, with the same character, same feelings, same priorities, same properties, live in the same place with the same climate, etc.

But we humans are diverse, each one of us has different priorities, capacities, tastes, desire to improve in life, we all want to have our own stuff and gain more, so we need different stimulants that's why capitalism works.

[Sub-Human 10]

This is exactly why I would prefer to stick with 'Stalinism', instead of the Communism. The Communism (Socialism) is an idea of a system in which the people works in order to contribute to the society, with no government to divide them. I would write more, but it is enought to say that Stalin wasn't a Communist, but just another dictator and fascist working against its own people in order to accomplish his egoistic goals. That is exactly the opposite from the Communism.

Before and after Stalin, the USSR was still a dictatorship. They still killed their own people en mass, they imprisoned political activists. There was still concentration camps. There was still heavy propaganda and a cult of personality (Lenin and communist party).

If you look at China, it was similar (even after Mao). Killing protesters with tanks, heavy propaganda, political prisoners, cult of personality.

Look at other socialist-communist states - in Asia, the Americas. Were they any different?

I agree, the period of Stalin's rule could be classified as 'Stalinism', but that does not change the fact that the communist regime has never worked as designed. That should tell you something.

[vilas 477]

both Third Reich and Soviet Union worked on eugenic programs to create new kind of human, Lenin told that there is need to kill any individualism in human, there were soviet scientists in early 30s working on human-ape creature , of course they didn't get any results, Third Reich had their Lebensborn program and tried to create soldier-mutants in much bigger scale than 1 laboratory and 1 mad scientist , but of course in early USSR they tried to create homo-sovieticus by killing anyone who disagree with their ideas to not allow other ideas spreading (thats why they were first killing intellectual elite of opposition and later paying to low qualified workers the same amount of money like to qualified engineer, to achieve goal that people do not want to educate just to be robots, of course it was not touching commie children which had all universities, of course one may say that the same is in capitalism where rich educate and poor are designed to be "free slaves", but opposite to capitalism noone in communism claimed that differences are natural, communism in theory was talking about equality and in fact was building new group of nobles which was bigger hypocrisy than in capitalism was) , communism is uthopian idea used by some groups to become nobles, maybe Stalin himself lived like poor man and had no dozens of limousines, but his clerks had such luxuries which noone in USSR could ever had (cause it was restricted only to given "class" of "equal" society, the best example are cars ;) if anyone interests in motorization history, than it is obvious that Chaika or ZIL limousines were produced ONLY for party members and given ONLY by degree of party membership, as for "equality" country something is not right, and those cars were develop to show party rank, strange if you talk about system of equality )

[mistyronin 1181]

(Amnesty International) Ukraine: New evidence of summary killings of captured soldiers must spark urgent investigations

Shocking new evidence of “execution-style killings†by pro-Russian armed groups in Donbass, eastern Ukraine, illustrates the urgent need for action to tackle the escalating human rights and humanitarian crisis in the area, said Amnesty International.

“The new evidence of these summary killings confirms what we have suspected for a long time. The question now is: what are the separatist leaders going to do about it?†said Denis Krivosheev, Europe and Central Asia Deputy Director at Amnesty International.

[vilas 477]

there are 2 news:

- Russian tv informed about 10 years old child killed by Ukrainian army in one city, later BBC journalist made investigation and Russian journalist who informed about this said to him in secret it was fake and he was ordered to do so, so there was no shelling city by Ukrainian artillery and it was history he was ordered to tell in Russian media,

- there is new YT video showing Russian army column and Russian soldier say they are heading on Mariupol,

[sudayev 27]

Ukrainian parliament during voting have decided to name and honor all members of the infamous Ukrainian Insurgent Army (Bandera) as righteous fighters for Ukrainian independence.

http://www.kresy.pl/wydarzenia,spoleczenstwo?zobacz/parlament-ukrainy-uznal-oun-upa-za-uczestnikow-walk-o-niepodleglosc-ukrainy#

It was coming after they elevated Bandera and Schuchevych to heroes of Ukraine.

A faceslap to all victims of Volhynia/Galizia genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

End justifies the means.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Sudayev

[Rydygier 1311]

Yeah, fighters for Ukrainian independence they might be indeed. And certainly we all should remember them for what they did. If Ukraine will build its national identity without the truth as foundations, praising criminals as heroes, I see its future even more grim, than it looks from current events. Their country, their choice. Or, as I supposed earlier, they have no big choice of heroes to praise, very fresh, if any. Question is, what's worse - no heroes, or such "heroes". Rhetorical question to me.

[mistyronin 1181]

I'm afraid the Russian invasion has forced the Ukranians to rise a national pride.

In the same way that Putin praises the criminal Stalin for invading, massacring and enslaving the Polish people and all Eastern Europe:

(The Australian) Vladimir Putin praises Joseph Stalin for winning WW2, making a superpower

The Prime Minister and former KGB agent used an appearance on national television to give credit to Stalin for making the Soviet Union an industrial superpower, and for defeating Hitler in the Second World War.

In a verdict that will be obediently absorbed by a state bureaucracy long used to taking its cue from above, MrPutin declared that it was "impossible to make a judgment in general" about the man who presided over the Gulag slave camps. His view contrasted sharply with that of President Medvedev, Russia's nominal leader, who has said that there is no excuse for the terror unleashed by Stalin.

[Tonci87 163]

I'm afraid the Russian invasion has forced the Ukranians to rise a national pride.

In the same way that Putin praises the criminal Stalin for invading, massacring and enslaving the Polish people and all Eastern Europe:

(The Australian) Vladimir Putin praises Joseph Stalin for winning WW2, making a superpower

So at least Medvedev has kept a bit of sanity?

[sudayev 27]

Yeah, fighters for Ukrainian independence they might be indeed. And certainly we all should remember them for what they did. If Ukraine will build its national identity without the truth as foundations, praising criminals as heroes, I see its future even more grim, than it looks from current events. Their country, their choice. Or, as I supposed earlier, they have no big choice of heroes to praise, very fresh, if any. Question is, what's worse - no heroes, or such "heroes". Rhetorical question to me.

A peculiar type of historical revisionism - this is what's going on and this is dangerous. A veil of silence is being drawn on these shameful facts from the 40's and It will be really hard for Ukraine to build a healthy and fair relationships with the closest neighbours. Polish people will never forget UPA, Bandera and Volhynian slaughter. President Poroshaenko seems to be a fair man with good intentions but he acts weird on both fronts - here in Poland he says "I'm sorry", while back in Ukraine he glorifies these villains. Stoning two birds with one stone - simply wont work and surely backfire.

I'm afraid the Russian invasion has forced the Ukranians to rise a national pride.

In the same way that Putin praises the criminal Stalin for invading, massacring and enslaving the Polish people and all Eastern Europe:

No. It's older than than Donbass war. Bandera was honored in 2011, since the fall of Soviet Union bandera's accompanied by nazi sympathizers and sons of SS Galizien are marching in cities of Western Ukraine year by year.

[mistyronin 1181]

No. It's older than than Donbass war. Bandera was honored in 2011, since the fall of Soviet Union bandera's accompanied by nazi sympathizers and sons of SS Galizien are marching in cities of Western Ukraine year by year.

I meant the parliament act of honoring them. That probably would have never happen if Russia hadn't invade Ukraine.

[ScratcH334 10]

http://orf.at/stories/2272702/

According to ORF (Austria's major news site), Ukraine's parliament has decided to prohibit all propaganda for both nationalsocialism and communism. Which means they're not allowed to use for example symbols or flags from the Third Reich or the USSR. If you violate said ban, you can be jailed for 5 to 10 years. Denying the crimes of Hitler/Stalin can also get you into trouble.

The only thing that's left is the signature of Poroschenko for it to be valid.

[sudayev 27]

I meant the parliament act of honoring them. That probably would have never happen if Russia hadn't invade Ukraine.

I would not be so sure my friend since there was simply no reason to honor Bandera during "bucolic" times of president Yanukovych. Anyways lifting Bandera's & UPA on a pedestal will only bolster pro-Russian militiants from Donbass to push them harder since for many of them this war isn't about Donbass - it's war with fascism, something what their grandfathers did during the WW2.