keeway 287 Posted October 23, 2014 First of all guilty of death of people flying the Boeing 777 are the people who didnt took care of closing airspace for civilians flights over this part of Ukraine. Nothing much to say really. You can call me insane, but after so many harms caused by those bastards they do not deserve any support from the Poland or even compassion. Fuck them, they continue the traditions of their fathers and grandfathers. For anyone that didnt hear about Volyn: you need to know who tortured in many fucking ways to death Polish citizens. It was UON-UPA, currently a lot of volunteer troops symbolism refers to those bastards for example: Azov Battalion and Right Sector. I would rather support Donetsk People's Republic than Ukraine, I know many stories about ukrainians here arrive by here to study and end at construction sites. And during this time they have the audacity to parade with Right Sectors Symbols. Let them go fucking fight for their country to the east. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted October 23, 2014 First of all guilty of death of people flying the Boeing 777 are the people who didnt took care of closing airspace for civilians flights over this part of Ukraine. Nothing much to say really. Of course the guys who shot or the guys who supplied the guys who shot with such powerfull AA system aren't guilty at all. That makes sense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aleksadragutin 9 Posted October 23, 2014 Of course the guys who shot or the guys who supplied the guys who shot with such powerfull AA system aren't guilty at all. That makes sense. Well with so much weapon being supplied by so many countries to so many factions, it's kinda hypocritical to blame Russia. He's right, it's the flight companies fault as much as it is the fault of who ever's in charge of closing down the airspace. They knew the risks, and they took it to save time and fuel. It's like walking through a minefield marked with danger signs, and then blaming someone else because your leg was blown of. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted October 23, 2014 Well with so much weapon being supplied by so many countries to so many factions, it's kinda hypocritical to blame Russia. He's right, it's the flight companies fault as much as it is the fault of who ever's in charge of closing down the airspace. They knew the risks, and they took it to save time and fuel. It's like walking through a minefield marked with danger signs, and then blaming someone else because your leg was blown of. Or Russia supplying a toy to a bunch of guys unable to use it properly. Go figure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aleksadragutin 9 Posted October 23, 2014 Or Russia supplying a toy to a bunch of guys unable to use it properly. Go figure. If you blame this on Russia, then you have to blame NATO for every other shithole on Earth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted October 23, 2014 If you blame this on Russia, then you have to blame NATO for every other shithole on Earth. That's your favorite motto, but that's a very weak point nonetheless. What's NATO is doing doesn't excuse what Russia is doing, as much as what Hitler did doesn't excuse what Stalin did (and no, i don't compare NATO or Russia with Hitler nor Stalin). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aleksadragutin 9 Posted October 23, 2014 That's your favorite motto, but that's a very weak point nonetheless. What's NATO is doing doesn't excuse what Russia is doing, as much as what Hitler did doesn't excuse what Stalin did (and no, i don't compare NATO or Russia with Hitler nor Stalin). If someone supports NATO but hates Russia for it's actions, then that someone exposes him/her self as a hypocrite (not talking about anyone in particular), and if someone is a hypocrite then his/her right or wrong system of values doesn't hold water and thus can't be taken seriously in an argument. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted October 23, 2014 If someone supports NATO but hates Russia for it's actions, then that someone exposes him/her self as a hypocrite (not talking about anyone in particular), and if someone is a hypocrite then his/her right or wrong system of values doesn't hold water and thus can't be taken seriously in an argument. Yeah, as much as this topic is about Russia acting in Ukraine (AFAIK, NATO isn't involved), i can twist your argument against those that hates NATO while supporting Russia, but who can't help to say "hey, what about NATO did to my beloved country". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aleksadragutin 9 Posted October 23, 2014 Yeah, as much as this topic is about Russia acting in Ukraine (AFAIK, NATO isn't involved), i can twist your argument against those that hates NATO while supporting Russia, but who can't help to say "hey, what about NATO did to my beloved country". I am not supporting Russia here. I don't have anything against Ukranians, but I hate a one sided coverage where media is free to invent stories that better suit them, and where there is no criticism. You (as in pro western) always criticize Russian propaganda without ever thinking to go deeper into your own. It's like you're watching Russian news, saying their bullshit and then pointing to everything opposite of that as THE truth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted October 23, 2014 I am not supporting Russia here. I don't have anything against Ukranians, but I hate a one sided coverage where media is free to invent stories that better suit them, and where there is no criticism. You (as in pro western) always criticize Russian propaganda without ever thinking to go deeper into your own. It's like you're watching Russian news, saying their bullshit and then pointing to everything opposite of that as THE truth. Have you ever watched Russia Today ? I didn't think it was possible to be worst than Fox News (that example should speaks to you), but it clearly is. This has nothing to do with supporting West or hating Russia. It's like watching North Korean news mixed together with the Sun. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surpher 1 Posted October 23, 2014 (Reuters) Charred tanks in Ukraine point to Russian involvement Reuters showed photographs of the two badly damaged tanks, one of which had lost its turret, to four independent military experts, who said they were of a type used exclusively by the Russian army. (The Interpreter) Assessing The Human Rights Watch Report On Cluster Munitions In Donetsk Human Rights Watch (HRW) has published a report this week, "Widespread Use of Cluster Munitions," which was widely covered by The New York Times and other media, summarizing the findings of a week-long investigation outside of Donetsk into allegations of cluster bomb use. The report, which says both sides have been implicated in the use of cluster munitions in civilian areas, focuses on their alleged use by Ukrainian armed forces, a violation of international human rights law. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keeway 287 Posted October 23, 2014 Of course the guys who shot or the guys who supplied the guys who shot with such powerfull AA system aren't guilty at all. That makes sense. Man, they knew that the zone is enveloped in war but still not prompted to make an easy decision to close the area for civilians, this resulted in tragedy. If this area was closed, no civilian aircraft would be dropped. One more thing: 9K37 Buk is in use by Ukraine armed forces aswell (to be more precise I will say they have about 60 of it). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted October 23, 2014 Man, they knew that the zone is enveloped in war but still not prompted to make an easy decision to close the area for civilians, this resulted in tragedy. If this area was closed, no civilian aircraft would be dropped. One more thing: 9K37 Buk is in use by Ukraine armed forces aswell (to be more precise I will say they have about 60 of it). You're obviously late in this topic, but by browsing it, you will read about several signs pointing to which side is probably guilty. And that side isn't the Ukrainian army. I only hope one day, the guys who shot will have enough morality to speak. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted October 23, 2014 Sadly it is completely normal to continue civilians flights over warzones. Civilian airplanes usually fly high enough not to be bothered by threats from the ground and the really heavy heavy AA usually has the means to identify civilians airliners (In this case the rebels didn´t have the whole system at their disposal and simply assumed that everything flying must be enemy). Having sympathies towards the rebels only because you detest the fashist elements in Ukraine is outright stupid since many of those Rebels are actually fashists themselves.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted October 23, 2014 (Vice News) 'I Couldn’t Move for Five Minutes from Fear': An Investigation Into Cluster Bombs in Eastern Ukraine Based on the physical evidence from two hit sites provided by VICE News from the October 2 attacks, ARES experts were able to calculate an azimuth range lying between 120 and 210 degrees as the site of a possible firing position, indicating that the rockets most likely came from a southern direction.On its own, the physical evidence provided to ARES experts for technical analysis was insufficient to eliminate the possibility that the October 2 strike may also have originated from land controlled by pro-Russian forces. An examination of the best knowledge of movements of troops, as well as eyewitness accounts of outgoing fire, indicate that the rockets may have been fired from one of several Ukrainian positions to the southwest of the hit sites, including the village of Novomykhailivka that was cited in the HRW report. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surpher 1 Posted October 23, 2014 (FT) Café encounter exposes reality of Russian soldiers in Ukraine The men, dressed in the latest Russian army uniform, fanned out across two tables. As the 1994 ballad “Love Is All Around†came on the stereo, one comrade turned to another and asked if he had, by chance, seen the film Love Actually? You know, he added, the one with Keira Knightley. The men’s goal was “training the local populationâ€, said the soldier, a native of Russia’s Voronezh region named Maxim. Asked if he and the others had come as volunteers, he replied sarcastically: “Sure, we’re volunteers. Nobody sent us here.†He continued on a more serious note. “They gave us an order: who wants to go volunteer? And we put our hands up like this,†he said, mocking someone being forced to put their hand up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted October 23, 2014 The ceasefire officially ended: ( Al Jazeera ) Ukraine rebels end ceasefire before polls Addressing reporters on Thursday, the prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, Alexander Zakharchenko, said "The truce has been observed by us alone. But the day before yesterday we started to respond as well. It has been quieter since yesterday." He added that self-defence forces are planning to retake the cities of Slavyansk, Kramatorsk and Mariupol, while Kiev prepares for legislative polls scheduled for Sunday. “Periods of intense hostilities will follow. We will retake Slovyansk, Kramatorsk and Mariupol. Unfortunately, it was impossible to make peaceful settlement the focus of negotiations. We are the only ones who comply with the regime of silence,†he said. BTW on the subject of the plane, there are different responsibilities, obviously the Airline has part of the responsibility but the main culprits are who shoot the missile, who ordered it and who provided it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted October 23, 2014 The ceasefire officially ended:( Al Jazeera ) Ukraine rebels end ceasefire before polls BTW on the subject of the plane, there are different responsibilities, obviously the Airline has part of the responsibility but the main culprits are who shoot the missile, who ordered it and who provided it. Wait a second, weren´t it the rebels who rejected/ignored the ceasefire in the first place and continued their attacks on the Donetsk airport? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted October 23, 2014 Wait a second, weren´t it the rebels who rejected/ignored the ceasefire in the first place and continued their attacks on the Donetsk airport? Well according to their words they assumed the ceasefire, according to their acts obviously no. But now officially ended, so I guess we can expect big operations ( now that the pro-Russians have increased magically their capabilities and train their men ). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted October 23, 2014 Well, from Vice News : According to the United Nations, at least 331 people have been died since the ceasefire came into effect That truce was a joke, mainly a pause until both sides reinforce themselves. ---------- Post added at 21:47 ---------- Previous post was at 21:42 ---------- (BBC News) Ukraine rebels dream of New Russia The rebels say they have 18,000 volunteer fighters, mostly from Russia, and that more are keen on joining. Several far-right organisations are involved in the online recruitment process. One of them is the Eurasian Movement, a far-right political group with an international reach, founded by ultra-nationalist philosopher Alexander Dugin. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted October 24, 2014 Chemical plant burning at night. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surpher 1 Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) (BBC) Ukraine election: Land of chaos and courage This weekend most of Ukraine will take part in a parliamentary election. There will be no voting, though, in those areas of the east controlled by pro-Russia rebels.Ahead of the ballot, I travelled from eastern Ukraine to Kiev. Along the way I witnessed courage and chaos. (The Wall Street Journal) Russia and West Grapple With Alternate Realities When the chairman and chief executive of Total SA, Christophe de Margerie , was killed this week after his private jet hit a snow-removal truck on takeoff from a Moscow airport, it looked like an accident.Russian television viewers were treated to a different version. According to a top Russian television channel, a plot by the Central Intelligence Agency couldn’t be ruled out. (Radio Free Europe) 'He Was Just A Boy' -- Russian Mother Grieves For Son Killed In Ukraine On September 5, Zhanna Zalogina returned home after work to an unpleasant surprise -- a note from her teenage son saying he had left to "another city.""I will be back in two months," read the laconic note stuck on the fridge. "I will call and write if possible. I love you." He was buried last week in his hometown of Kronshtadt after being killed in eastern Ukraine, where he had joined pro-Russian rebels. Edited October 24, 2014 by surpher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
x3kj 1247 Posted October 25, 2014 I just found this video... maidan riot police, no weapons. Are attacked with a hand grenade. Watch at own risk (no gore however). http://youtu.be/j7f3HKQ1i30?list=UUGasNCvV96gooDwbqYUHJbg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted October 25, 2014 ( BBC ) Putin: Russia helped Yanukovych to flee Ukraine Mr Yanukovych fled to Russia in February after protests in which more than 100 people died."I will say it openly - he asked to be driven away to Russia, which we did," the Russian president said. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ballistic09 241 Posted October 25, 2014 I just found this video... maidan riot police, no weapons. Are attacked with a hand grenade.Watch at own risk (no gore however). http://youtu.be/j7f3HKQ1i30?list=UUGasNCvV96gooDwbqYUHJbg Do you not notice the Thai flag in the background, or the Thai writing on the riot shields and street signs? Don't buy into propaganda nonsense so easily. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
