Ukraine General

[surpher 1]

Maybe somewhere at Dnepropetrovskaya street. Adress of showroom is Dnepropetrovskaya st., 34.

Can you give us some coordinates to building 34, it not clear to me there is one. And how are the Russians getting the address of that billboard?

[beastcat 14]

So now they just terrorists? and where was that ,E-Ukraine? could been attacked or hit by ukrainian arty,planes or tankfire. something just as easy as saying terrorists blew it up! see how fast ppl will spew BS or believe anything they see or hear!?

Or mayby spin it around; it must been russian planes that attacked it or mayby it was a freeking UFO.

Yeah, because it totally makes sense for the government to fire arty at its own oil station, that the government will have to pay for repairs and infrastructural damage, in an area which is already under their control.

[Bashka_IF 1]

For those who has not seen BUK missile in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m0zKQAWBI0

notice big smoke tail after missile.

Now tell, why there are videos of falling plane and no photo or video or any witness of missile flight ?

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

Or to blame on terrorists. besides,they wont pay for it. The US will give them some fresh printed dollars to pay for it. or some Euro's out off my pocket,besides, haliburton or exxon will gladly come and rebuild it. and for the footage no proof,only pics.

[beastcat 14]

Or to blame on terrorists. besides,they wont pay for it. The US will give them some fresh printed dollars to pay for it. or some Euro's out off my pocket,besides, haliburton or exxon will gladly come and rebuild it. and for the footage no proof,only pics.

lol, are you serious?

[mistyronin 1181]

Now tell, why there are videos of falling plane and no photo or video or any witness of missile flight ?

As with many other things, people only record things that are out of normal. In Eastern Ukraine rockets are common, even AA rockets ( the pro-Russians have already shoot down different planes and helos with them ).

So people started recording when they noticed something different, a huge ball of fire in the fields.

BUT

Military Sattelites, and probably some civilian ones may have been able to capture the moment.

[beastcat 14]

Now tell, why there are videos of falling plane and no photo or video or any witness of missile flight ?

Cameras are not everywhere all the time and it takes time for people to react to whats happening. The videos we have are after the plane has been shot down, because people had time to react and it is much more noticable.

John Kerry said that they have pictures of the launch and that information about the trajectory of the shot is available. If the US actually has something this time, that should answer your question.

Kerry also appears to be discontent, because many of the separatists are heavily drunk, but to be honest, I don't blame them. No ordinary man can handle such a morbid sight on a sober mind.

Edited July 20, 2014 by beastcat

[lesscubes 1]

Is it 1938 yet?

[jakerod 254]

For those who has not seen BUK missile in action:

notice big smoke tail after missile.

Now tell, why there are videos of falling plane and no photo or video or any witness of missile flight ?

Did you notice in the last scene how you couldn't see the missile trail because it wasn't in the frame? That might be why. It is also possible that the missiles in that video give off more smoke for promotional/tracking purposes. There have been videos shown of AT rockets for example where they filled the target with fuel/explosives to make it look better than it actually is. I can't imagine that the smoke lingers for long since it is generally undesirable to have a line leading back to where you just fired a missile from. There are all kinds of rational explanations.

[maturin 12]

Now tell, why there are videos of falling plane and no photo or video or any witness of missile flight ?

Why can't you show me videos of every single one of the several dozen Grad launches? Are they all false flag operations too?

Given the right atmospheric and lighting conditions, a SAM launch will just be one more boring little smoke trail in a part of the world that is covered in rocket artillery. The OSCE observers reporting hearing Grad barrages coming down all around them. No one bothers to film such things anymore, unless they are happening right next to them.

[froggyluv 2136]

Frankly I more worried bout how a 100% caught, napoleon complexed, Alpha male wannabe Judo champ Russian president reacts when painted into a corner..

[maturin 12]

Frankly I more worried bout how a 100% caught, napoleon complexed, Alpha male wannabe Judo champ Russian president reacts when painted into a corner..

By playing it cool, so far. Putin just released a statement calling for an immediate ceasefire and negotiations.

[vilas 477]

in this conflict a lot of focus is only on rebels, Russians are there 29% in some areas, so question is what about 71% ?

is 29% wants their will to be over 71% ?

cause in case if there is no referendum and even if all Russians living there want something, than they are 29% or 39% , not 71% or 61% of population

we should remember that those who fight there in some areas are according to stats minority like 29%,

29% cannot dictate to 71% how to behave and in which country to live

there is not enough info about rest of population living in Eastern Ukraine, so far all media focus only on Russian minority, not speaking about Ukrainian majority

[beastcat 14]

Also Spookys theory that the video published by Ukraine was made in another town is false.

On the video you can see trolleybus powerlines, however, in the town that the russian news suggested, there is no trolleybus traffic, in the town suggested by Ukraine there is. Also the billboard theory doesn't hold water anyway.

[Tonci87 163]

Ukrainian Buks are not deployed within range of the downed plane.

Ukrainian Buks don't have any reason to fire at air targets flying west to east.

Ukainian Buks have control stations and powerfull radars attached to them. They are much more likely to distinguish a civilian plane from a military one.

Ukrainian Buk controllers can easily cross check for civilian traffic.

Who told you that the rebels only have one Buk?

The rebel controlers could also be dudes who were trained o the system 20 years ago. And again the controller simply saw a high flying target, flying west to east with no IFF response and fired a missile. You don't have to be stupid or incompetent to do that. He simply assumed that he was dealing with another military plane.

Jst wow that you now say that it can't be pdoven that a Buk missile downed the plane aftef you recently were quite sure that a Air to Air missile downed the plane.

You change your opinion and arguments just as it suits you.

Hey Spooky, care to explain some of those points?

Who has more reason to fire at a plane coming from the west? Ukrainians or rebels?

Who has better means of identifying a plane? Ukrainians or rebels?

Answer those two questions and it becomes very obvious who most likely downed the plane.

Yes it can be that easy.

And what kind of BS was your statement that the reported rebel Buk was maybe too clse to the planes route?

[ProfTournesol 956]

ITAR TASS : http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/741561

“It can be said with confidence that had the combat actions in the east of Ukraine not been resumed on June 28, this tragedy would have not happened for sure,†the president noted.

Translation : as the Ukrainian army was renewing his offensive against the separatists, we supplied pro russians with AA systems, which caused the tragedy.

Edited July 21, 2014 by ProfTournesol
correction of poor English skills

[beastcat 14]

Another funny thing is, in the russians desperate attempts, they may have found something, that can help prove that the Buk came from Russia. They have presented a picture, of what is supposedly a Ukrainian Buk. That however had a number on the side, which supposedly was the same for most Ukrainian Buks spotted. Now, the separatist Buk didn't have any numbers at all.

In Spooky terms:

Coincidence? I THINK NOT!!!! CONSPIRACY CONSPIRACY CONSPIRACY CONPIRACY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RUSSIAN BLACKWATER MERCENARIES EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Russia went to war on well-known scenario"

(Somewhat dodgy) English subtitles are available

http://youtu.be/CsNlc0iKK7Y

Edited July 21, 2014 by beastcat

[spooky lynx 73]

Hey Spooky, care to explain some of those points?

Who has more reason to fire at a plane coming from the west? Ukrainians or rebels?

Rebels don't have a reason to fire at the high-altitude large target coming from north-west to south-east with constant speed and altitude. That's not the route that cargo plane ready to paradrop some goods for UA troops may use.

Who has better means of identifying a plane? Ukrainians or rebels?

Answer those two questions and it becomes very obvious who most likely downed the plane.

Yes it can be that easy.

Ukrainians do have full complex but that hadn't hepled them much 13 years ago in peaceful environment. Moreover I highly doubt that level of UA SAM crews had ever increased since that times. It's probably decreased. So in war environment the chance of fatal error of UA troops is even greater than 13 years ago especially if you remember that repairment and maintenance are not the things that were done in UA army. On the other side rebels proved to have rather well skilled anti-air weapons crews who may operate that Buk wisely.

And what kind of BS was your statement that the reported rebel Buk was maybe too clse to the planes route?

If it really shot the missile from the suspected area than it was just waste of costly ammo at rather short distance - not the thing Buk is intended to.

[maturin 12]

Rebels don't have a reason to fire at the high-altitude large target coming from north-west to south-east with constant speed and altitude. That's not the route that cargo plane ready to paradrop some goods for UA troops may use.

It is possible that the MH17, approaching high from west, was misidentified as Ukrainian military transport aircraft. Even more likely so, if the pro-Russian troops were operating under the impression that the airspace over eastern Ukraine had been declared as a no-fly zone for the international overflight traffic (it wasn't – AIS Ukraine/Eurocontrol/ICAO had only distributed a relevant NOTAM for FL320 and below).

It is also possible, even probable, that the missile was launched quickly, using just a single Buk-M1 TELAR (transporter erector launcher and radar, СОУ 9Ð310Ðœ1) –vehicle in autonomous mode. It can function without the assistance of command (КП 9С470Ðœ1) and 3-D target acquisition radar (СОЦ 9С18Ðœ1) vehicles of a complete Buk-M1 –system, but in this case it would have operated under a severely limited capabilty to track and identify targets.

If and when this launcher was operating in haste, without any assistance from normal battery or battalion level functions, even the exact flight level and velocity of the target may have been missed or ignored – even more likely so, if this rogue TELAR vehicle was manned by just a single trained Buk-operator and few henchmen. And yes, contrary to what has been now claimed, a single TELAR vehicle in autonomous mode can be operated, if necessary, by a one well-trained operator, assisted by few quickly trained ersatz-operators. And there isn’t exactly a shortage of trained Buk-operators, whether reservists, active or ex-soldiers, in Ukraine or Russia – or in many third party countries, including Finland.

http://suomensotilas.fi/en/responsibility-and-irresponsibility

Despite massive efforts of obfuscation by the Russians, the accidental-targeting scenario remains the most simple and logical option. Occam's Razor. It is the only theory that has all participants acting like rational people and making human mistakes.

The other possibilities require inhuman levels of either vicious ruthlessness or stupidity, and strain credulity. Unlike the rebels, the Ukrainians have had weeks to watch dozens of airliners overfly the conflict zone. Suggesting that they are so stupid as to shoot at just one of these many targets, which must have passed over their own goddamn capital, is downright silly.

On the other side rebels proved to have rather well skilled anti-air weapons crews who may operate that Buk wisely.

With Manpads. Or do you admit to the likelihood of more radar-guided SAMs in rebel territory?

Remember that it's a 50/50 chance that the Buk was being operated by Russian personnel. Just a quick jaunt over the border to do some high-profile damage to the ATO.

If it really shot the missile from the suspected area than it was just waste of costly ammo at rather short distance - not the thing Buk is intended to.

How is it a waste of ammo if the target is a guaranteed kill? You don't make much sense these days.

And the ammo is free, either looted or donated. We don't know how many more missiles they have access to. A lone TELAR is not really a valuable asset to be preserved; it's a hobbled system that probably won't be much use. Well, someone decided to take their only likely chance of using it.

Edited July 21, 2014 by maturin

[surpher 1]

(Ukraine@war) Russian transport of BUK into Ukraine on July 17th

(Ukraine@war) Satellite images reveal how the BUK has been driving near the launch location

(Ukraine@war) Launch location detected of missile that brought down MH17

[beastcat 14]

(Ukraine@war) Russian transport of BUK into Ukraine on July 17th

(Ukraine@war) Satellite images reveal how the BUK has been driving near the launch location

(Ukraine@war) Launch location detected of missile that brought down MH17

Those links are actually really interesting and useful. Sometimes I wish there was a 1+ feature...

The amount of work and the thought process is actually really fascinating!

Edited July 21, 2014 by beastcat

[batto 17]

@Spooky_Lynx, what has your support of the cause of pro-Russian forces has to do with their major screwup? Defending fight for independence is one thing, but now you're desperately trying to cover up their obvious screwup for some reason unkown to me. If I took a gun a went fighting UA forces would that magically make me a honorable flawless person in your eyes? You don't even know me! I don't fear "conspiracy theories" (I still question 9/11) but in this case the evidence is overwhelming and it shouldn't change what you support.

EDIT: I don't support anyone.

Edited July 21, 2014 by batto

[ProfTournesol 956]

While last Putin's speech is almost empty (apart from the quote i commented earlier), Obama's one is of no interest too (such as "if you cross the red line for the third time, i'll frown"). It's really time for European leaders to step in.

Edited July 21, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[mistyronin 1181]

It's really time for European leaders to step in.

That time started long ago, and ... I'm still waiting.

[ProfTournesol 956]

That time started long ago, and ... I'm still waiting.

Yeah, i meant to really step in. EU is so weak, it's time for Germany, which has some influence in Russia and is the leading power in EU, to play a role.