Ukraine General

[surpher 1]

(TheVoiceOfRussia) Donetsk People’s Republic confirms resignation of Slavyansk people's mayor

"The so-called people's mayor Ponomaryov has been removed from office for conducting an activity incompatible with the goals and objectives of the civilian administration. I cannot say more for now," Strelkov wrote on his Facebook page.

[vilas 477]

the keyword to understanding this whole business is MAJORITY..

o read again what i said , if in past nation A and nation B had one area, nation A exterminanted or deported nation B and put more people from A to places after killed/deported B and claims it is land ethnically A , so you agree that it is A's ?

how many Tatars now in Crimea ? 12% now they say they must run, they are abused etc.

ok, can you check HOW much of them were BEFORE Stalin crimes ? or do it for you ? they were over 25% , woow, half of them disapeared

[spooky lynx 73]

There are obviously morrons on each sides. I only hope the new Ukrainian leader will clean that mess.

Yanuk:

-friend of some oligarchy group

-used lightly armed or even unarmed LEOs against rivals

-agreed to perform reforms (constitutional etc) and made an agreement via European ministers with opposition

-refused to sign treaty with EU

Poroshenko:

-oligarch himself

-use all the forces available (including jets, heavy artillery and MLRS) against rivals

-still refusing to sign treaty with EU

-stated that Ukraine will never be federation and Ukrainian language must be the only state one

Do you believe anything will change to the good side (for Ukraine and average Ukrainians)?

---------- Post added at 23:46 ---------- Previous post was at 23:32 ----------

how many Tatars now in Crimea ? 12% now they say they must run, they are abused etc.

ok, can you check HOW much of them were BEFORE Stalin crimes ? or do it for you ? they were over 25% , woow, half of them disapeared

Yes, they must run from the place where their language bacame one of the official (which hadn't been done all the 23 years of Ukrainian independence). Oh that bloody Russkies, how could they do such horrible thing and make three official languages (Russian, Ukrainian and Tatarian) in Crimea?!

Stalin crimes you say? I'd remind you that according to martial law of WW2 years collaboration with the enemy, sabotage, desertion and signing to enemy armed forces was penalized with death. So what was better - to kill al those thousands of Tatar collaborators and supporters of Hitler for their crimes or move them to inner regions to prevent any harm from them at the front? So I'd say all those 'offended' Tatars, Chechens and other morons should praise Stalin and his order not simply judge according to martial law all those deserters and collaborators but save their lives and move them to the place where they won't do much harm to state. Read about amounts of desertions and collaboration with Nazis among Tatars and think how much people could been legally shot for their crimes. Plain law enforcement would result in real disaster for them.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Yanuk:

-friend of some oligarchy group

-used lightly armed or even unarmed LEOs against rivals

-agreed to perform reforms (constitutional etc) and made an agreement via European ministers with opposition

-refused to sign treaty with EU

Poroshenko:

-oligarch himself

-use all the forces available (including jets, heavy artillery and MLRS) against rivals

-still refusing to sign treaty with EU

-stated that Ukraine will never be federation and Ukrainian language must be the only state one

Do you believe anything will change to the good side (for Ukraine and average Ukrainians)?

I'm quite confident though : he looks more honest and moderated than Yanuk (despite what's happening in the East now), and strong enough to be respected by Putin and obeyed by his army. Time will tell. About federalization, it's a tough subject cause it would need a referendum, which would be rejected by the majority of Ukrainians (and probably in the most of the East too).

[Tonci87 163]

(TheVoiceOfRussia) Donetsk People’s Republic confirms resignation of Slavyansk people's mayor

That is good news!

[pooroldspike 129]

o read again what i said , if in past nation A and nation B had one area, nation A exterminanted or deported nation B and put more people from A to places after killed/deported B and claims it is land ethnically A , so you agree that it is A's ?

how many Tatars now in Crimea ? 12% now they say they must run, they are abused etc.

ok, can you check HOW much of them were BEFORE Stalin crimes ? or do it for you ? they were over 25% , woow, half of them disapeared

This is MistyRonins excellent map again, showing that the MAJORITY of people in Donetsk and Luhansk speak Russian, so my idea is that they should ask Putin if they can join Russia (like Crimea did), then everybody will be happy. Or is it a bad idea?

Does anybody here have a better idea?

Edited June 10, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[mistyronin 1181]

This is MistyRonins excellent map again, showing that the MAJORITY of people in Donetsk and Luhansk speak Russian, so my idea is that they should ask Putin if they can join Russia (like Crimea did), then everybody will be happy. Or is it a bad idea?

Point 1: that part of Ukrainians speak Russian, doesn't mean that they want to separate. As you could, see in last elections a majority voted Poroshenko who promised that Ukraine will try to join the EU.

Point 2: The Crimean "referendum" was voted illegal by a huge majority of countries of the world ( only 11 were against ), because the "referendum" was made under Russian invasion ( in fact for many it seemed the referendum that Hitler promoted in Austria during the Anschluss ).

Point 3: Putin has already answered to the petitions of annexation of that two provinces, saying that Russia is not interested ( he just wants to ruin Ukraine ).

[lesscubes 1]

A slow, grinding, brutal insurgency benefits Russia more than a stable Ukraine, wouldn't it?

[vilas 477]

PoorOldSpike building imperialism of one country against other smaller countries is bad idea,

especially you should know it not only from history of colonies of UK in past, but also from fact that now when British family give birth to 1 child and imigrants have 8 children, than soon your country should be divided and join some Asian countries when majority will be non-British,

and you should remember (cause seems you ingnored what i wrote) that presence of one nation on given territory doesn't show history, cause as i said on example of Tatars - this nation was in 50% or more exterminted by Russians, and it should not justify claiming now that something belongs to Russia because USSR or Tsar killed natives , because it would be justifying holocaust

A slow, grinding, brutal insurgency benefits Russia more than a stable Ukraine, wouldn't it?

Rhetorical question

Edited June 11, 2014 by vilas

[pooroldspike 129]

MistyRonin said: The Crimean "referendum" was voted illegal by a huge majority of countries of the world ( only 11 were against ), because the "referendum" was made under Russian invasion ( in fact for many it seemed the referendum that Hitler promoted in Austria during the Anschluss ).

Lesscubes said: A slow, grinding, brutal insurgency benefits Russia more than a stable Ukraine, wouldn't it?

Vilas said: you should remember (cause seems you ingnored what i wrote) that presence of one nation on given territory doesn't show history, cause as i said on example of Tatars - this nation was in 50% or more exterminted by Russians, and it should not justify claiming now that something belongs to Russia because USSR or Tsar killed natives , because it would be justifying holocaust

Are the majority of the Crimean people happy now that they're part of Russia?

Why doesn't Putin want Donetsk and Luhansk to be part of Russia?

What do the Donetsk/Luhansk insurgents want? Why are they fighting against Ukraine? Can they win?

Why doesn't Putin want a stable Ukraine?

The Tatars are ancient history.

Hey guys I ask again- How can peace come?

[vilas 477]

if you murder one nation and steal other nation land and try to conquer other country - it cannot give any peace, just hate

Tatars are not ancient history, it is history from 1940s

peace comes when you do not try to conquer other country and you not make mess in other country, peace comes when you regret crimes of the past and try to fix them, not praise&deny those crimes

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america

btw. on one Polish forum IT guys responsible for this forum found that 90% of voices saying about Banderas and Facists are from Russian IP or TOR users

they wrote 80% of comments on this one website, shaping vision that 80% of comments are pro-Russian, Kremlin hire trolls

Edited June 11, 2014 by vilas

[Tonci87 163]

Are the majority of the Crimean people happy now that they're part of Russia?

Many Ukrainians moved out and the Tatars are not happy. The Russains? They are happy.

It doesn´t change the fact that the annexion was unlawfull.

Why doesn't Putin want Donetsk and Luhansk to be part of Russia?

I don´t think that he doesn´t want it, I think he just realizes that he would push things too far if he now also takes those territories.

What do the Donetsk/Luhansk insurgents want? Why are they fighting against Ukraine? Can they win?

There you have a mixed bag. Some want an own independent republic, but many more want to be part of Russia (No surprise since there are a lot of Fighters who came in from Russia).

If they can win or not depends on how much support they can get from Russia. Without the Weapons and men coming in over the border they would be already finished.

Why doesn't Putin want a stable Ukraine?

The longer he can keep this clusterfuck going the more time he has to strenghten his grip on Crimea and make the world forget about it.

The Tatars are ancient history.

Some Tatars still live there and half a century is not ancient. Don´t be ignorant.

Hey guys I ask again- How can peace come?

Talks.

The Ceasefire is a very good step but I fear that the Rebels won´t stop fighting as long as they get ample supply and volunteers from Russia. If Putin wants peace he has to put a stop to this as soon as the ceasefire is in effect.

[pooroldspike 129]

PoorOldSpike asked: Are the majority of the Crimean people happy now that they're part of Russia?

Tonci replied: Many Ukrainians moved out and the Tatars are not happy. The Russains? They are happy.

It doesn´t change the fact that the annexion was unlawfull.

PoorOldSpike asked: Why doesn't Putin want Donetsk and Luhansk to be part of Russia?

Tonci replied:I don´t think that he doesn´t want it, I think he just realizes that he would push things too far if he now also takes those territories

Crimea seems peaceful now, or are they fighting against Russia?

If the majority of Donetsk/Luhansk people like Putin, why don't they ask to join Russia? That way, he won't have to invade..;)

Edited June 11, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[ProfTournesol 956]

While it's obvious that most of Crimean people are in fact ethnic Russians, it's very far from being sure that most of Russian speaking people at the East of Ukraine are even supporting the so called activists that stormed official buildings. But the new president must absolutely show :

(1) That he's willing to restore order ;

(2) That he wants to restore normal Ukraine - Russia relationships ;

(3) That he wants Ukraine to respect Eastern people, particularly their language.

[mistyronin 1181]

Crimea seems peaceful now, or are they fighting against Russia?

If the majority of Donetsk/Luhansk people like Putin, why don't they ask to join Russia? That way, he won't have to invade..;)

It all depends what do you understand by peaceful. Crimea is today less peaceful than before the Russian Army invade it.

Because the majority seem to favor an autonomy or independence, but not to join Russia. Anyway if Russia sends the Army would be an invasion unless the referendum asking for the annexation would be made under all the democratic guaranties ( no ilegal military force nor invasion, free press, anonymous vote, UN observers from all the countries etc. ).

I don't get much why would you favor illegal invasions, that instead of peace would lead to a global conflict ( that was the origin of WW2 ). The only way to peace is doing like in Scotland or Catalonia as I already told you before a few times.

---------- Post added at 14:44 ---------- Previous post was at 14:01 ----------

---------- Post added at 14:53 ---------- Previous post was at 14:44 ----------

( Al Jazeera ) Ukraine orders civilian corridors in the east

Ukraine's new president has ordered security officials to create a corridor for safe passage for civilians in rebel-held eastern regions, a day after he said "mutual understanding" was achieved with Russia.

Petro Poroshenko's statement published online on Tuesday said security agencies would organise transport and relocation to help residents of the affected areas leave the scene of over two-months of pro-Russian uprising.

However, the statement gave no details on where the civilians could be relocated, or what accommodation was available.

Shortly after the announcement, Russia said it welcomed Ukraine's decision to establish the corridors, but stressed that Moscow had yet to see an easing of the Ukraine's military crackdown on the pro-Russian rebels.

[spooky lynx 73]

Donbass citizens will be 'filtered' - Defence minister of Ukraine (in Russian/Ukrainian)

Filtering and then deporting to other regions... Well... I won't comment it.

[mistyronin 1181]

Filtering and then deporting to other regions... Well... I won't comment it.

In your link only says that the Defense Ministry will filter the population to identify who has links with those who have committed crimes.

[spooky lynx 73]

In your link only says that the Defense Ministry will filter the population to identify who has links with those who have committed crimes.

Please translate again:

ИÑполнÑющий обÑзанноÑти миниÑтра обороны Украины Михаил Коваль заÑвил, что к жителÑм Юго-ВоÑтока будут применены "Ñпециальные фильтрационные меры", в результате которых людей будут раÑÑелÑÑ‚ÑŒ в разные регионы. Такое заÑвление он Ñделал на заÑедании Кабинета миниÑтров Украины в Ñреду, 11 июнÑ.

[mistyronin 1181]

Please translate again:

You are right. The previous translation that I did was wrong. My apologies.

[pooroldspike 129]

...I don't get much why would you favor illegal invasions...

Who me?

Nah, If the MAJORITY of Crimean, Donetsk and Luhansk people WANT to join Russia and welcome Putin, it won't be an invasion..:)

News reports say the majority (60%) of Crimeans voted to join Russia, so that's alright then.

At the moment I'm trying to find out what the majority of Donetsk/Luhansk people want, but nobody seems to know.

Incidentally Kiev said the Ukrainian language must be spoken in ALL Ukraine, including in Russian-speaking Donetsk/Luhansk, so no wonder they're angry.

Are the Kiev government nuts or just stupid?

[ProfTournesol 956]

Who me?

Nah, If the MAJORITY of Crimean, Donetsk and Luhansk people WANT to join Russia and welcome Putin, it won't be an invasion..:)

News reports say the majority (60%) of Crimeans voted to join Russia, so that's alright then.

At the moment I'm trying to find out what the majority of Donetsk/Luhansk people want, but nobody seems to know.

Incidentally Kiev said the Ukrainian language must be spoken in ALL Ukraine, including in Russian-speaking Donetsk/Luhansk, so no wonder they're angry.

Are the Kiev government nuts or just stupid?

Nobody knows how many Crimean people wanted to join Russia as the referendum was held at gunpoint. Probably a majority would have voted the same way without all those troops around, but we'll never know precisely.

[mistyronin 1181]

Nah, If the MAJORITY of Crimean, Donetsk and Luhansk people WANT to join Russia and welcome Putin, it won't be an invasion..:)

News reports say the majority (60%) of Crimeans voted to join Russia, so that's alright then.

No one knows what the people of Crimea or Donetsk or Luhansk wanted. Because there haven't been a proper votes to know it.

What we know is that last year's polls say that no region of Ukraine wanted to be separated or join Russia.

It's the same as if we ask how many people in Scotland want the independence. We only know the polls, but unless a proper vote is made nobody will know.

We also know that Putin didn't trust a democratic vote in Crimea, and forced the military invasion days before.

Edited June 11, 2014 by MistyRonin
orthography

[surpher 1]

Incidentally Kiev said the Ukrainian language must be spoken in ALL Ukraine, including in Russian-speaking Donetsk/Luhansk, so no wonder they're angry.

Are the Kiev government nuts or just stupid?

Actually the Rada repealed a 2012 law that approved the use of the Russian language in courts and other government institutions. It wasn't about stopping anyone speaking Russian and although it was a dumb move, the law was reinstated a few days later.

[mistyronin 1181]

The criminal "People’s mayor of Sloviansk", seems to have been arrested by their own thug mates at the orders of the former GRU officer Igor Girkin. We have to remember that he was one of the leaders of the kidnapping and torture of foreign journalists, civilians, and OSCE observers.

May seem that Putin has ordered to silence the worst leaders of the separatists.

( ITAR-TASS ) People’s mayor of Sloviansk dismissed and arrested

People’s mayor of the east-Ukrainian city of Sloviansk Vyacheslav Ponomaryov (Ponomarev) has been dismissed from his post and arrested, a representative of self-defense forces confirmed to ITAR-TASS on Tuesday.

Meanwhile, head of the presidium of the Supreme Council of self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic leader of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) Denis Pushilin commented that to date, he could neither confirm nor dismiss these reports.

---------- Post added at 23:21 ---------- Previous post was at 23:06 ----------

If any of our Pro-Putin mates are interested:

( The Guardian ) Crimea: you've seen the annexation ... now buy the T-shirt

Edited June 11, 2014 by MistyRonin

[pooroldspike 129]

Okay I've been googling around and the situation has become much clearer, tell me if I've got it right-

The pro-Russian 'Donbass Peoples Militia' formed the 'Donetsk Peoples Republic', and attacked Kiev Govt buildings in the DPR, so the Kiev Govt had no choice but to go in to tackle them, calling them "terrorists".

I don't see how the Militia can win alone, perhaps they're hoping Putin will invade to support them?