Ukraine General

[spooky lynx 73]

Funny. Before their uprising, storming of official building, taking weapons etc, nobody was threatening them. Self defence my **.

You know, one old Jewish woman, Holocaust victim, said: "If someone says he wishes to kill you - believe him. And either kill him first or run away". People saw enough 'funny' things at maidan done by far right radicals driven by Svoboda, Udar and Batkivshina (google for Ivan Protsenko and his movement for example), and they don't want the same at their cities. And storming official buildings and seizing MVD arsenals in Rivno, Ternopol and Lviv were long before South-East self-defence forces were created. So, as you see, some people prefer not to wait when NG troops will perform recless drive at their city in BMPs and shoot at weaponless people.

[mistyronin 1181]

You know, one old Jewish woman, Holocaust victim, said: "If someone says he wishes to kill you - believe him. And either kill him first or run away". People saw enough 'funny' things at maidan done by far right radicals driven by Svoboda, Udar and Batkivshina (google for Ivan Protsenko and his movement for example), and they don't want the same at their cities.

Yeah, there are a lot of concentration and extermination camps in Ukraine. In fact they have already invaded different territories from other countries, to set their supremacy of superior race. Oh wait, no... that was Russia...

All those stuff was definately written by some poor folk who was held at gunpoint by Dark Lord Putin himself.

Or theyre just some conspiracy theorists who are telling you stories about alien abductions if they're not thinking of some other fairy tales atm.

I hate to write another quote/proverb here but:

"Where there's smoke, there's fire"

In what you call "the West" you can find all kind of university studies, think tanks reports, newspaper editorials, religious groups of all kinds and nature defending the weirdest ideas you want ( that's the greatness of freedom of speech ).

From the Pastafaris that adore the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Those who think that the US have aliens in the Area 51

Religious groups with high luxurious buildings that think that you can become a semigod

The Illuminati conspiracy ( More illuminati )

A brit that believes in most of that

That kind of political parties

Here a website of western left wing / communist intellectuals that share most of your opinions

a huge percentage of the Americans think that the men was created by God during the genesis and don't believe Darwin's Evolution theory

In fact 1/3 of US citizens believe that all that is written in the Bible is true

Have you seen, lot's of smoke sources and with lots of different colors. Or the world is on fire... or you tell me...

[spooky lynx 73]

https://pp.vk.me/c7009/c7008/v7008752/112ee/OIS7AAotzyM.jpg (237 kB)

"Thank you for your courage and defence. We won't forget your gest. Sorrow."

Flowers that were left at the entrance of burnt police HQ in Mariupol, in the memory of servicemen fallen in the fight with nazional guard.

Will anybody else say that locals tried to storm police building?

Edit: rumors say that head of Mariupol police who ordered his servicemen to disperce Victory day commemoration meeting with any force available was executed by locals. And Oleg Lyashko, who ordered nazional guard to enter the city and shoot at everyone was captured. If that's true, very nice.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[mistyronin 1181]

https://pp.vk.me/c7009/c7008/v7008752/112ee/OIS7AAotzyM.jpg (237 kB)

"Thank you for your courage and defence. We won't forget your gest. Sorrow."

Flowers that were left at the entrance of burnt police HQ in Mariupol, in the memory of servicemen fallen in the fight with nazional guard.

Will anybody else say that locals tried to storm police building?

Here you have a homage to a Basque terrorist ( in Spain ) With speeches and words like the ones you said. So what?

I can also find you homages to Al-Qaeda terrorists or Chechen terrorists.

Were Chechen terrorist fighting against Russian Nazi Army?

[ProfTournesol 956]

rumors say that head of Mariupol police who ordered his servicemen to disperce Victory day commemoration meeting with any force available was executed by locals. And Oleg Lyashko, who ordered nazional guard to enter the city and shoot at everyone was captured. If that's true, very nice.

Terrorists acting as such.

[spooky lynx 73]

So do you think policemen who refused to execute crime order and shoot in their compatriots are equal to terrorists and separatists? Nice...

[mistyronin 1181]

So do you think policemen who refused to execute crime order and shoot in their compatriots are equal to terrorists and separatists? Nice...

We already talked about the mutiny crime. BTW no one asked them to shoot unarmed people, but to fight against the violent pro-Russian militias.

BTW Chechens separatists of all kinds were always depicted as terrorists by the Russian media,

---------- Post added at 15:39 ---------- Previous post was at 15:34 ----------

( BBC ) Ukraine rebels hold referendums in Donetsk and Luhansk

BBC correspondents at polling stations report chaotic scenes, no voting booths in places and no electoral register.

Self-proclaimed leaders in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions are going ahead with the vote despite Russian President Vladimir Putin's call to postpone it.

Ukraine condemned the vote as a "criminal farce" organised by Russia.

At the Primorsky polling station in Mariupol, a large crowd is gathered outside, waiting to vote. There is a crush of people inside. Organisation is chaotic at best. There are no polling booths: people vote at the registration desks. People's details are hastily scribbled on generic forms. There is also a collection for money towards funding the Donetsk People's Republic.

The chairman of this polling station, Sergei Babin, told the BBC that people from other regions are permitted to vote here. He said their details would be taken down, and then, to ensure they haven't voted elsewhere, "the lists from different polling stations would be checked against each other". When asked how long such a mammoth task would take, he replied, "One day."

Four polling stations are operating across Mariupol today, two days after deadly fighting broke out. Organisers are unsure of basic information regarding the referendum such as number of referendum employees, number of voters or even locations of polling stations.

There is only one question on the ballot papers, in both Ukrainian and Russian: "Do you support the act of state self-rule of the Donetsk People's Republic/Luhansk People's Republic?"

And there are still outbreaks of violence, with fighting reported overnight around the rebel-held city of Sloviansk.

Bill Taylor, a former US ambassador to Ukraine, said results from Sunday's referendum should be treated with caution after what happened in Crimea.

Continue reading the main story

Donetsk referendum

Vote held in those cities and towns of Donetsk and Luhansk controlled by separatists

Some three million ballot papers ask: "Do you support the act of state self-reliance of the Donetsk People's Republic?"

Separatists aim to hold second round on 18 May, on joining the Russian Federation

Referendum deemed illegal by Ukraine's government and the international community

Will the referendum matter?

"The first reports were... that 80% turned out and 97% agreed with the yes vote. And then we find out just a couple of days ago from an official Russian government website that the turnout was not 80%, it was only 30% in Crimea, and the yes vote was not 97%, it was only 50%," he told the BBC.

[arttem 1]

Yeeeah. I like it. C'mon guys, continue please, very nice boulevard trash. :) That thread looking like comics more and more. :)

[mistyronin 1181]

( The Washington Post ) Russian government agency reveals fraudulent nature of the Crimean referendum results

The Russian government’s claims that the March 16 referendum in Crimea resulted in a 96.7% vote in favor of annexation were always extremely dubious. But now, as Paul Roderick Gregory of Forbes points out, a report by Russia’s official Presidential Council on Civil Society and Human Rights suggests that the real numbers were far different from those previously claimed:

The website of the “President of Russia’s Council on Civil Society and Human Rights†posted a blog that was quickly taken down as if it were toxic radioactive waste. According to the Council’s report about the March referendum to annex Crimea, the turnout was a maximum 30%. And of these, only half voted for annexation – meaning only 15 percent of Crimean citizens voted for annexation.

The fate of Crimea, therefore, was decided by the 15 percent of Crimeans, who voted in favor of unification with Russia (under the watchful eye of Kalashnikov-toting soldiers).

( Forbes ) Putin's 'Human Rights Council' Accidentally Posts Real Crimean Election Results

Edited May 11, 2014 by MistyRonin

[spooky lynx 73]

We already talked about the mutiny crime. BTW no one asked them to shoot unarmed people, but to fight against the violent pro-Russian militias.

BTW Chechens separatists of all kinds were always depicted as terrorists by the Russian media,

They were ordered to use live ammo and shoot to kill if those who gathered would refuse to go home. That's what the order from Kiev stated. And where had you seen violent pro-Russian militia in Mariupol at 9-th of May? Maybe you will show some video footage of it? I can see only armed provocateurs who was shooting from traumatic guns at NG who returned fire with live ammo at unarmed people.

BTW if you remind about Chechens... Can you see massive cases of killing, torturing, raping of pro-Ukrainians by pro-Russians at Donbass? Can you name at least one case of attack with using women and elders on military facilities for sake of stealing weapons (I don't mean already deployed troops who were ordered to fight 'terrorists' in Slaviansk)? Can you name at least one case of pro-Ukrainians been thrown from their homes and pro-Russians occupy them? Can you name any case of taking hostages in hospitals or blowing entire houses? I bet you won't, so please don't mix apples and oranges and don't make such silly thing as comparing Chechnya and current Ukraine. That's like "constitution" and "prostitution" - words look similar but the meaning is very different.

[mistyronin 1181]

And where had you seen violent pro-Russian militia in Mariupol at 9-th of May? Maybe you will show some video footage of it? I can see only armed provocateurs who was shooting from traumatic guns at NG who returned fire with live ammo at unarmed people.

Yeah and people destroyed a BMP armor spiting in it...

Can you name any case of taking hostages in hospitals or blowing entire houses? I bet you won't, so please don't mix apples and oranges and don't make such silly thing as comparing Chechnya and current Ukraine.

Good point, so...

Can you name any case of concentration or extermination camps in actual Ukrain were millions are killede? Can you name any religious prosecution? Can you name any invasion of foreign territory by the Ukrainian Army? Etc.

I bet you won't, so please don't mix apples and oranges and don't make such silly thing as comparing Nazis and current Ukraine.

[arttem 1]

( The Washington Post ) Russian government agency reveals fraudulent nature of the Crimean referendum results

( Forbes ) Putin's 'Human Rights Council' Accidentally Posts Real Crimean Election Results

Look in Forbes article. They have a screenshot of original text.

He think, he was speaking, he thought, maybe... 55 percent of polled voters for annexation, turnout 40 percent, 22.5 percent of total Crimean population voting in favor. Majority vote for annexation. If you didn't go to referendum it's not another people problem. Anyhow, if West like to use information like - "i was speaking, i was thinking..." He asked whole Crimea or how? Anyhow the 55% of voted for annexation - majority.

On president elections, nobody wait when each human in state come for vote.

That article was in his blog. Yes. He was speaking in Crimea with people.

[mistyronin 1181]

Majority vote for annexation. If you didn't go to referendum it's not another people problem.

If it wasn't cuz an important part of the Crimean population was not allowed to vote ( read in past posts in this thread for the links and interviews, even in Simon's report he talked about that ).

That's the kind of things that happen when you do a vote under military invasion and without objective international observers. That's why the wide majority of world countries declared it illegal.

---------- Post added at 16:26 ---------- Previous post was at 16:16 ----------

( UNN ) Mariupol police chief gorupravleniya who was kidnapped on May 9, was found hanged - media

Gorupravleniya Head Mariupol police Androschuk Valery, who had previously been kidnapped by separatists, found hanged on May 10 in the area of Mariupol Airport. It is reported by the local edition of "The Island", citing a source in law enforcement, reports UNN .

Recall V.Andruschuk was kidnapped on May 9 during the confrontation in the city.

Acting Chief of Mariupol City Department of Internal Affairs of Ukraine appointed Oleg Morgun.

Edited May 11, 2014 by MistyRonin

[arttem 1]

If it wasn't cuz an important part of the Crimean population was not allowed to vote ( read in past posts in this thread for the links and interviews, even in Simon's report he talked about that ).

That's the kind of things that happen when you do a vote under military invasion and without objective international observers. That's why the wide majority of world countries declared it illegal.

Show me that revelations from Simon. I wanna be surprised. Yes i remember he was in one tatars village and according to what he seen there, he made a statement. Wow!

But, you know... Don't loose your time. I remember all that thread and materials wich i've seen. And for all time of Crimea events i didn't find any proofs of referendum under Kalashnikov.

Edited May 11, 2014 by ArtTem

[spooky lynx 73]

Yeah and people destroyed a BMP armor spiting in it...

Couple of Molotov cocktail bottles can destroy wrecked BMP left by its crew, yes. Just like any other vehicle. None of manned vehicles was destroyed or knocked out at 9th of May because none of 'violent militia' was armed even with baton.

Good point, so...

Can you name any case of concentration or extermination camps in actual Ukrain were millions are killede? Can you name any religious prosecution? Can you name any invasion of foreign territory by the Ukrainian Army? Etc.

I bet you won't, so please don't mix apples and oranges and don't make such silly thing as comparing Nazis and current Ukraine.

Religious prosecution? Yes. Priests of Russian Orthodox church (not Ukrainian self-proclaimed patriarchate) received threats many times from far right activists.

Extermination camp? Odessa Labor union house - people were trapped there and were killed. I can post some investigations with tons of videos and photos proving far right radicals did it but I'll get ban for posting gore and ogrish soon.

Invasion of foreign army? Yes, far right activists from UNA-UNSO took part in Chechnya war against our troops in large numbers, so yes, those guys performed hostile actions already. In civil world a country hosting such guys deserved "Grapes of Wrath".

Then. Prosecution of all who don't share maidan ideas? Yes. Just look at recent incidents in Rada with communists, threats to candidates for presidency. Cheerful comment from officials regarding deaths of civilians in Odessa (google Farion one). Will to burn all the opponents (said by Zoya Kazahzhi, new vice chief of Odessa administration).

Praising former Waffen SS veterans and their crimes - yes.

Speaking about destruction of nearby country (numerous discussions on the official Svoboda party forums about how Russia must be destroyed) - yes. Note this party now is one of the leading in Rada.

So yes, if it smells like nazism, acts like nazism, shouts like nazism then it is nazism. I understand it's hard to admit that glorious European Union got some affairs with it but, like it is said in Metallic song, "Sad but true".

[ProfTournesol 956]

Surprisingly enough, most of Neo nazis, far right or extreme nationalist movements across Europe are supporting Putin's regime. Doesn't it ring a bell in your head ?

[mistyronin 1181]

Couple of Molotov cocktail bottles can destroy wrecked BMP left by its crew, yes. Just like any other vehicle. None of manned vehicles was destroyed or knocked out at 9th of May because none of 'violent militia' was armed even with baton.

Indeed, for example these cool chaps are only armed with "lollipops" :rolleyes:

This video shows that the BMP was attacked with AT weapons ( look at the damage ):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdJ0l33jC6c

BTW, look who posted this video in this thread

About the rest of your last post. I suggest you to read it again, if you don't find anything weird in your argumentation, I'm not gonna lose more time talking to you in this thread.

Just suggest you to buy good books about the 2WW and visit the museums of the Nazi concentration & extermination camps. I've visited Mauthausen, Dachau, etc. where a lot of my countrymen were killed by the Nazi craziness ( for instance when I visited Mauthausen, the crematorium room was filled with homages and flags of my country ).

---------- Post added at 16:50 ---------- Previous post was at 16:48 ----------

( RT ) KIEV TROOPS SEIZE 4 POLLING STATIONS IN KRASNOARMEYSK, DONETSK REGION – ACTIVISTS

town in the Lugansk region has come under attack by Kiev's APCs, while in the Donetsk region Ukrainian troops have seized four polling stations, self-defense forces claim. This comes as autonomy referendums kick off in the country's southeast.

“Around 15 APCs have come near Novoaydar,†Aleksey Chmilenko said. “Our self-defense guards are trying to stop the attack and prevent the vehicles moving farther in the direction of Lugansk.â€

Meanwhile, representatives of another Lugansk region self-defense group, based in Krasny Luch, told RT that they have seen APCs in the region, but have not heard any fighting yet.

Reports of sightings of Ukrainian APCs in various towns and villages in the Lugansk region have been coming in throughout the day. One report said that as many as 45 APCs were moving from the Kharkov region in the direction of Lugansk.

Novoaydar election commission was reportedly evacuated by self-defense activists, after it had been attacked by National Guard troops.

Edited May 11, 2014 by MistyRonin

[arttem 1]

Just suggest you to buy good books about the 2WW and visit the museums of the Nazi concentration & extermination camps.

What's wrong with them, with all 1634? And how they according to that thread? I think i need to make statistic from all posts. To see in digits, who and how many times speak about fascism, Hitler and gives radical charges here.

Maybe after that Spooky and Rus comrades - you understand that you are loosing your time.

Like i've said. It start to look like comics more and more.

Edited May 11, 2014 by ArtTem

[mistyronin 1181]

What's wrong with them, with all 1634? And how they according to that thread? I think i need to make statistic from all posts. To see in digits, who and how many times speak about fascism, Hitler and gives radical charges.

Maybe after that Spooky and Rus comrades - you understand that you are loosing your time.

Like i've said. It start to look like comics more and more.

I'm sorry but in this post you don't make any sense, write in Russian what you want to say and I'll translate it.

[negah 26]

Maybe after that Spooky and Rus comrades - you understand that you are loosing your time.

Like i've said. It start to look like comics more and more.

Yeah feels like talking with a wall.

But I guess thats how Misty feels too.

[mistyronin 1181]

Yeah feels like talking with a wall.

But I guess thats how Misty feels too.

I don't mind talking to you or to ArtTem. We may not agree in many subjects, we obviously have a different points of view but in most of your posts, both of you show your knowledge and intelligence. I like to know and I learn from what you say

But if Spooky Lynx can't see the difference between the Odessa's trade union house fire and the holocaust ( even if its just statistically of dozens against millions ). That he compares it with the nazi extermination camps. I'm not gonna lose my time talking with him.

[spooky lynx 73]

Surprisingly enough, most of Neo nazis, far right or extreme nationalist movements across Europe are supporting Putin's regime. Doesn't it ring a bell in your head ?

So what? Our domestic far right folks admire Hitler despite he, if would be alive, would think of them like of horse poo. I don't know about European far rights and who they support but Russian ones treat Putin as treator and servant of Caucasian, Middle Asian and Jewish interests.

Indeed, for example these cool chaps are only armed with "lollipops" :rolleyes:

Where were they when all the mess started and ended? AFAIK either in Donetsk or at the road to Mariupol. Unfortunately they arrived when everything ended.

This video shows that the BMP was attacked with AT weapons ( look at the damage ):

Yes I've looked at the damage and hadn't found any RPG hit (and I know how does it look). Some parts of skirts are damaged because of collide with some soild object (seeing how drivers behaved it's not surprise). But that's not RPG hit.

But if Spooky Lynx can't see the difference between the Odessa's trade union house fire and the holocaust ( even if its just statistically of dozens against millions ). That he compares it with the nazi extermination camps. I'm not gonna lose my time talking with him.

Nazism is not some plain digits and numbers. It is not exact number of camps or dead people. It is ideology. Killing all who does not support your ideas. Opressing other languages. Thinking of destruction of nearby country.

[ProfTournesol 956]

So what?

No clue why they admire Putin ?

Nazism is not some plain digits and numbers. It is not exact number of camps or dead people. It is ideology. Killing all who does not support your ideas. Opressing other languages. Thinking of destruction of nearby country.

Maybe for this, hehe.

---------- Post added at 17:33 ---------- Previous post was at 17:28 ----------

Yeah feels like talking with a wall.

What i feel is that you Russian guys don't want to say here what you really think, about Ukraine not being a country, about all the "Russian speaking guys" needed to be reunited to mother Russia, wherever they may live, etc.

[Tonci87 163]

Yes I've looked at the damage and hadn't found any RPG hit (and I know how does it look). Some parts of skirts are damaged because of collide with some soild object (seeing how drivers behaved it's not surprise). But that's not RPG hit.

Look at 0:39 The hole in the sideskirt is from an RPG. Quite hard to get that kind of isolated damge just from driving. Last time I checked BMPs couldn´t drive sideways.

Do you see how black the roadwheels are? Everything is full of oil, even the ground. The RPG has hit very close to the engine and must have ruptured the oil tank. It also looks as if the oil has burned. The whole side of the vehicle is black, compared to the greenish color of the other side.

[blu3sman 11]

Our russian friends speak about "nazi junta", well lets take a look at "peoples governor" Gubarev :j:

RNU