Ukraine General

[ProfTournesol 956]

Yes, it probably exists everywhere, but in some countries it's absolutely overwhelming, as in Russia or Ukraine. So there is no point in saying "hey, look, there's corruption everywhere", when in some part of the world it only happens from time to time, and most of the time the justice is fighting against it, while in other countries, the corruption is a way to rule the country, and the justice itself is corrupted, as in Russia.

For my part, i'm 43 and i never personally met corruption in my country.

Edited February 26, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[Xalteva 10]

Yes, it probably exists everywhere, but in some countries it's absolutely overwhelming, as in Russia or Ukraine. So there is no point in saying "hey, look, there's corruption everywhere", when in some part of the world it only happens from time to time, and most of the time the justice is fighting against it, while in other countries, the corruption is a way to rule the country, and the justice itself is corrupted, as in Russia.

For my part, i'm 43 and i never personally met corruption in my country.

Cahuzac

[vilas 477]

in Poland in last months course dismissed 2 corruption cases, which was widly spread in our media :

- in 1st case - woman working as director in aerial dept. of city hall in one city took bribe, and court dismissed case cause "it is too small money" (she took 15 000 PLN = 5000 USD, which is ca . 7 medium wages in this country http://krakow.gazeta.pl/krakow/1,44425,14190313,Przyjela_15_tysiecy__To_nie_lapowka__Sad_umorzyl_sprawe.html http://www.wprost.pl/ar/406265/Sad-15-tys-zlotych-lapowki-dla-urzedniczki-Umorzyc-za-niska-kwota/ http://lovekrakow.pl/aktualnosci/15-tysiecy-zlotych-lapowki-to-za-malo-sad-umorzyl-sprawe_3095.html according to court 15 000 PLN it is too small money to punish clerk for it )

so city clerk was free, but ... man who gave her bribe get 2 years in prison,

- in 2nd case - court dismissed case cause "taking envlope under table is not corruption: ( http://niezalezna.pl/50358-koperta-pod-stolem-nie-lapowka http://www.hotmoney.pl/Cud-w-sadzie-Koperta-pod-stolem-to-nie-lapowka-a32960/2 http://wyborcza.pl/1,75478,15236469,Koperta_pod_stolem_to_nie_lapowka__czyli_znana_okulistka.html )

-3rd famouse case from last weeks - prosecutor dismissed case about corruption in Highest Court,

so such things often happen in my country, i do not read Russian press, but ProfTournesol as you see "envelope under table" and "bribe lower than 15 000 PLN" is not corruption in center of europe and EU member too, i live few years less that you, but i met corruption many times,

there is a joke in Police "to commander Y: due to poor financial family conditions i am asking for changing my dept from prevention to road traffic dept., Policeman X"

lots of people say they are keeping for example money bill in driving license, so when they speeding , than police checks driving license and say "you may go" without ticket,

friend of my was having his own busines and work-safety inspector was proposing him some years ago "to settle the case" and whe he resigned , he get negative decision and he couldn't start his business

Edited February 26, 2014 by vilas

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

For my part, i'm 43 and i never personally met corruption in my country.

I can solve that. Would you like a date with one of the first ladies? Give me some time to arrange it, I need to compile a list and work out which official residence they are currently living in.

Dress: tuxedo and crash helmet.

[sudayev 27]

Funny, on another site I got into a discussion with a russian army man and he's bombarding me with slogans from his media while telling me that all European media are biased and controlled the CIA. Almost like he completely forgot that in his country all the media are putinist and those who present other versions got beaten or worse. Are these people so brainwashed? It reminds me from history, when in 1920-30 Soviets were writing about the USSR like about a land of milk and honey.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Cahuzac

Lol. I said personally, and he wasn't corrupted, he just escaped the tax. Get your fact straight. Moreover, i never said there is no corruption in France.

I can solve that. Would you like a date with one of the first ladies? Give me some time to arrange it, I need to compile a list and work out which official residence they are currently living in.

Dress: tuxedo and crash helmet.

No clue how this can be related with the topic. But whatever.

Edited February 26, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[maturin 12]

Funny, on another site I got into a discussion with a russian army man and he's bombarding me with slogans from his media while telling me that all European media are biased and controlled the CIA. Almost like he completely forgot that in his country all the media are putinist and those who present other versions got beaten or worse. Are these people so brainwashed? It reminds me from history, when in 1920-30 Soviets were writing about the USSR like about a land of milk and honey.

It's not brainwashing, no. It's a natural psychological response, ideological blinders put on as a response to a feeling of umbrage. They feel disrespected and wronged by the outside world.

Defensively nationalistic Russians are unable to believe in any actual distinctions between Russian and Western political systems. Ie, they need to believe that all the positive aspects of democracy and open societies are just false reporting and a hood that's been drawn over the eyes of the population.

That's the first step, which is negating any superiority of Western sociopolitical systems. The second step is to respond to all criticism of Russia's policies by pointing out analogous crimes committed by Western countries. (They will often point to atrocities committed decades or centuries ago that most of the population of Western countries now regret or generally apologize for.) 'You're just as bad as we are' is the central strategy here, establishing moral equivalency. I have some sympathy for this part, as Westerners often harp on negative aspects of Russian history or society while forgetting their own.

However, this is all done with a peevish air, with the subtext that Russia is equal to other countries and therefore has an equal right to commit all sorts of violent and aggressive abuses. At the same time as making the West share the blame for its similar crimes, they never allow that Russia's actions are actually morally wrong in any way. It's a dynamic of human rights violations as a merit of national independence, of freedom from political correctness and respect for human dignity (ie, thank god that in our glorious country we can assault gay people in the street and have our security forces torture Muslims with impunity).

I call this stance defensively nationalistic because it is a cynical viewpoint that doesn't allow moral judgements of Russia, and responds to it by trying to make the West just as guilty. There's no attempt to excuse or exalt Russia, just to drag everyone else down to her level.

This sort of nationalism is summed up by the mantra 'my country is always right.' In this case, it stems from internal struggle against an inferiority complex that comes from recent memories of humiliation and impotence (the 90s).

Most of Spooky Lynx's posts are a textbook example of this dynamic.

Edited February 26, 2014 by maturin

[batto 17]

Most of Spooky Lynx's posts are a textbook example of this dynamic.

You're textbook example as well then. Pointing to problems on both sides is not nationalism.

[vilas 477]

EU wants cheap labour in future (when Poles will earn enough in period of dozen years , lets say in 2020, 2025) than Poles, Romanians, Slovaks, Bulgarians will leave western countries or they will be earning as Natives and someone has to do cheap jobs, so than Ukrainians will be the best cheap labour and it is also big market to sell there goods (cause Ukraine do not so far meet EU standards but GOST standards are there, so in case of EU membership, Ukrainians will have to change their electronic equipment to meet EU standards, which will make Ukraine as big market),

on other side

Russia wants strategic position, also big market (for weapons, vehicles, gas) for Russian products, in USSR era Ukraine was producing 25% of food consumed in USSR due to high quality sand, Ukraine has a lot of coal, so when oil will end on earth in for example 30 years than synthetic gasoline can be produced from coal (in WW2 Germans were pioniers in producing synthetic oil, now RoSA produces it)

so both sides have interest to have Ukraine in their interests zone

both sides hate third way - independence from one or second side - cause then Ukrainians choose what to buy,

those 45 milions of people who live in Ukraine must buy washing machines, cars, TV, cameras, weapons etc. someone wants to sell it, also people who earn 100, 200 euro per month would like to take job for 500 , 600 euro, both Moscow and London/Paris/Brussels/Berlin need workers to do those jobs,

Ukraine also produces vehicles, aircrafts, weapons for export - so Ukraine is competition to both sides, noone likes competition, history of previous 25 years of freedom in my country show that industry can be destructed when big international corporations put hand on such country (to remove competition), destroying Ukrainian industry and replace export by import is interesting both sides,

problem is that now in Ukraine less than 1% of population earn 80% of all money/goods etc.

Oligarchs own country and make it third world structure

Edited February 26, 2014 by vilas

[Amra 10]

2 maturin,

"She might be wrong but she's my Motherland". We do know when and why we might be wrong, maturin. But it does not mean anyone can spit on our country from outside. If west wants to deal with us - it must consider us to be equal. Some western politics understand that, some are too derp to understand. Unfortunately.

[spooky lynx 73]

One note: we (Russia and Ukraine) co-existed in one state for centuries. And we are mixed very much (me is example, my father is Ukrainian, mother is Russian). So it's not only about having Ukraine as market, I'd say market is at one of the last places. It's very hard to live in different countries when you have lots of ties (cultural, economic, ethnic etc.) that exist for many centuries. And as for the independence - let me repeat, if it is real independence then we are okay about it. If it is hostile politics, praising of nazi douchebags and supporting our enemies (and even direct involvement in wars against us - UNA-UNSO in Abhasia, Chechnya, Georgia-Osetia war) but will to have low prices for gas and oil, low fees for Ukrainian goods at our market and other nice stuff - no thanks.

[scrim 1]

Yeah, she's your motherland. But she's not Ukraine's motherland, something a lot of Russian speaking people in the Ukraines and Russia seem to have trouble comprehending.

And yeah, you co-existed. As in, you forced them to be part of your "brotherly" union, you murdered thousands of Ukrainian nationalists, drove them to cannibalism with genocidal famines, looked upon them as second class citizens, etc. Maybe that's why the Ukrainians don't remember your co-existence with the same fondness, who knows?

[maturin 12]

We do know when and why we might be wrong, maturin.

I know. I've just gotten back from 6 months in Russia, most of which I spent with extremely intelligent, clear-thinking people with an honest understanding their country's flaws and merits that I had only respect for.

I wasn't describing them. I was describing the brainless meathead nationalists who refuse to admit that any part of any Russian government has ever done anything wrong, no matter if the death toll is in the millions. And of course there are lots of this type in the USA as well. I spend 95% of my time contemptuously analyzing their thought process and usually leave Russia alone, don't worry. It's just that I've spent half a year working in Russia and don't feel that I am "spitting from outside." On the contrary, I'm seen the violence and hatred of your nationalists firsthand, and seen the harm done by the lack of rule of law, with illegal practices by government bodies and the state cracking down on its most active and selfless citizens, stifling any social activity it doesn't control.

And I'm an American. Literally the entire world spends most of its political energy complaining about my government's policies. "Spitting" on us if you will, complaining about our culture, etc. But I don't get ferociously offended about it. To the contrary, I owe a big thanks to Europeans for coming out in the streets to protest our idiotic Iraq war, or raising a stink about government surveillance. Why don't Russians distinguish between criticism of their entire country and criticism of their government's actions? I know firsthand that no one trusts the government or thinks that it is honest. So why do these corrupt crooks suddenly because the glorious leaders of the fatherland as soon as they extend their malfeasance overseas?

Now, I am asking rhetorical questions here. I think I know why, and it's mostly down to wounded pride and the painful memories of the '90s. Foreign criticism of the USA has never felt like use getting kicked when we were down, and more kicking while trying to get back up.

"She might be wrong but she's my Motherland"

This is patriotism.

But the prevailing mood among many Russians is more like this:

The government may be wrong but I can't separate my loyalty to my country from my loyalty to the regime, so, err, the government is right! I won't ever criticize my government or admit to a single national problem whenever a foreigner is listening!

These are the kind of people who won't criticize Stalin for killing twenty million of his own people because they think it makes the motherland look bad. It's disgusting, personally.

Edited February 26, 2014 by maturin

[vilas 477]

So it's not only about having Ukraine as market, I'd say market is at one of the last places

remember that politicians, economists think different than rest of people (so called usual people), usual people do not need to go for wars (they go to wars when they are manipulated by politicians who are corrupted by banksters, big corporations, weapon dealers or companies hungry for resources of other country, noone normal has issue to fight with man some hundreds kilometers away unless this person threats him personally), polticians and industry love wars, usual people do not care so much on profits, economists see only profits or lack of it,

so the fact that you look at Ukraine not as market is not changing fact that politicians on both sides look like this,

i will give example from "macroeconomy":

usual people think - they need to buy good food to eat for price they can afford,

politicians see that to keep price low all costs of product (materials, manpower, fees, custom fees) must be held to prevent for example hunger resulting riots, so when one part of prices goes up, they must find solution to lower other part of cost, if we are developping we are buying more things, so we need more wages to buy it, so manpower rises, so ... again, they must lower it or to raise global country income (by export and by elimination of import if it breaks economy)

politicians do not think like you, you can look at Ukrainians as people but those who rule EU or Russia look at them as market place or cheap labour source, nothing more, all "freedom" is bullshit, "export, import, profit, cost" those words are important , and it doesn't make difference if person has name Putin or Merkel or Obama

[spooky lynx 73]

'We', being USSR governmant, gave some land to it (Donbass, Crimea), we co-existed in Empire and Kievskaya Rus long before 'brotherly' union - a thing that most of Europeans and their descendants in America do not understand. We had been starving together in 20-30's of XX century. You know, the same 'holodomor' had happened in my region and northern parts of Kazakhstan. Second class citizens? Sure, two of them became leaders of the whole USSR, aren't you tired about talking such ignorant BS? You'd better study the names of USSR higher officials before saying this.

[vilas 477]

You'd better study the names of USSR higher officials before saying this.

ssshhhh

+Spooky ,while you were typing, i was typing too, i answered your previous post like this:

So it's not only about having Ukraine as market, I'd say market is at one of the last places

remember that politicians, economists think different than rest of people (so called usual people), usual people do not need to go for wars (they go to wars when they are manipulated by politicians who are corrupted by banksters, big corporations, weapon dealers or companies hungry for resources of other country, noone normal has issue to fight with man some hundreds kilometers away unless this person threats him personally), polticians and industry love wars, usual people do not care so much on profits, economists see only profits or lack of it,

so the fact that you look at Ukraine not as market is not changing fact that politicians on both sides look like this,

i will give example from "macroeconomy":

usual people think - they need to buy good food to eat for price they can afford,

politicians see that to keep price low all costs of product (materials, manpower, fees, custom fees) must be held to prevent for example hunger resulting riots, so when one part of prices goes up, they must find solution to lower other part of cost, if we are developping we are buying more things, so we need more wages to buy it, so manpower rises, so ... again, they must lower it or to raise global country income (by export and by elimination of import if it breaks economy)

politicians do not think like you, you can look at Ukrainians as people but those who rule EU or Russia look at them as market place or cheap labour source, nothing more, all "freedom" is bullshit, "export, import, profit, cost" those words are important , and it doesn't make difference if person has name Putin or Merkel or Obama

----------

So Spooky, do not think like you personally, think for moment like politician would think when you must care about interest of economy of big country, there will be no sentiments, just market, what you would do to save resources and economy for 200 miliions of people (Russia/EU/US) and their standard of life ? you would look for importer whom you will export your products, you would look for cheap labour so your demanding more salary people who vote for you are happy

Edited February 26, 2014 by vilas

[batto 17]

'We', being USSR governmant, gave some land to it (Donbass, Crimea), we co-existed in Empire and Kievskaya Rus long before 'brotherly' union - a thing that most of Europeans and their descendants in America do not understand. We had been starving together in 20-30's of XX century.

Pointing to infamous problems of famous side is good thing. Nationalism is BS. Just because you used to coexist in past doesn't mean that Putin has any entitlement to control people who want to live independently. Austria-Hungary used to coexist too.

[maturin 12]

You know, the same 'holodomor' had happened in my region and northern parts of Kazakhstan.

And the Ukrainian people were the only ones in the USSR to react to that atrocity (I don't really care whether you call it genocide or not. It's a manmade famine that took over five million lives.) in a logical way.

While some in the former USSR are gutless cravens that chant 'thank you comrade Stalin for killing and enslaving millions of our grandparents to solidify your autocracy,' Ukrainians simply decided that they can never again be ruled from Moscow. Moscow killed droves of them once, Moscow hasn't admitted any fault and can't be trusted not to do it again. Why the Kazakhs didn't have the same response, I really don't know. The brotherly union has been undone, for many people.

Ukrainian memories of the holodomor have begun part of their national identity. Like the Siege of Leningrad or any other part of the BOB.

Almost all of the USSR's Cold War-era relations with West Germany were concerned with ensuring that Germany would never again have the ability to create a fascist government and attack Russia. That's why Poland had to be a satellite state, and why East Germany had to be socialist. That's the cause for the Chechen War, too. Moscow almost destroyed the Chechen people, committed genocide within the living memory of many Chechens. After that it was impossible to be ruled by many of the same people and institutions, without the barest trace of an apology, explanation, reparations, respect or justice.

For many Ukrainians, defending a statue of Lenin is like defending a statue of Hitler (While the Russians see Banderas as Hitler). I don't say that Ukrainian society has to ignore all the positive aspects of Soviet culture and economy, but the two nations have to pull their heads out of their asses and realize how the other side reacts to their symbols. And the new government needs to start some serious assurances that the east of the country is going to remain a respected and active part of society. Cultural nationalism in such a mixed state is criminal. I know I want to string Zhirinovsky up be his balls every time he opens his mouth.

And it is absurd to be obsessing about Bandera (who was a scumbag, don't get me wrong), when Stalin himself collaborated with Hitler far more. So Bandera made some plans with the Gestapo? Well, he wasn't nearly so friendly with them as were the NKVD, believe me. If not for Stalin's famines, there would have been no collaboration in Ukraine.

Edited February 26, 2014 by maturin

[scrim 1]

'We', being USSR governmant, gave some land to it (Donbass, Crimea), we co-existed in Empire and Kievskaya Rus long before 'brotherly' union - a thing that most of Europeans and their descendants in America do not understand. We had been starving together in 20-30's of XX century. You know, the same 'holodomor' had happened in my region and northern parts of Kazakhstan. Second class citizens? Sure, two of them became leaders of the whole USSR, aren't you tired about talking such ignorant BS? You'd better study the names of USSR higher officials before saying this.

Yes, how very generous. You "gave" some land to the people you were ruling. Most cultures say that in order to give something away, you can't still have it afterwards. No, you didn't co-exist. You ruled them with an iron fist. Saying you co-existed is like saying that Nazi Germany and Poland co-existed.

Ooh, you're brothers now, because while the rulers in Moscow were starving the Ukrainians for hundreds of years, Russian peasants would also starve. Sounds legit.

Yeah, no. While others certainly didn't have it easy at the time to put mildly, once again thanks to Moscow, it was 7.5 million Ukrainians who starved to death. That's more than how many Jews the Nazis managed to kill during the Holocaust. Starting to understand just why Ukrainians don't consider you a brother?

Yeah, after hundreds of years of oppression, genocides, etc., you can't say that they were treated equally because, at the eve of Russian oppression, two Ukrainians ruled for a fraction of the time during your "brotherly co-existence".

The bullshit is strong with you.

[maturin 12]

Yes, how very generous. You "gave" some land to the people you were ruling. Most cultures say that in order to give something away, you can't still have it afterwards. No, you didn't co-exist. You ruled them with an iron fist. Saying you co-existed is like saying that Nazi Germany and Poland co-existed.

Ooh, you're brothers now, because while the rulers in Moscow were starving the Ukrainians for hundreds of years, Russian peasants would also starve. Sounds legit.

Yeah, no. While others certainly didn't have it easy at the time to put mildly, once again thanks to Moscow, it was 7.5 million Ukrainians who starved to death. That's more than how many Jews the Nazis managed to kill during the Holocaust. Starting to understand just why Ukrainians don't consider you a brother?

Yeah, after hundreds of years of oppression, genocides, etc., you can't say that they were treated equally because, at the eve of Russian oppression, two Ukrainians ruled for a fraction of the time during your "brotherly co-existence".

The bullshit is strong with you.

You apparently know very little of the history of this region. SpookyLynx is actually a lot closer to the truth here than you are.

[sudayev 27]

It's not brainwashing, no. It's a natural psychological response, ideological blinders put on as a response to a feeling of umbrage. They feel disrespected and wronged by the outside world.

Defensively nationalistic Russians are unable to believe in any actual distinctions between Russian and Western political systems. Ie, they need to believe that all the positive aspects of democracy and open societies are just false reporting and a hood that's been drawn over the eyes of the population.

That's the first step, which is negating any superiority of Western sociopolitical systems. The second step is to respond to all criticism of Russia's policies by pointing out analogous crimes committed by Western countries. (They will often point to atrocities committed decades or centuries ago that most of the population of Western countries now regret or generally apologize for.) 'You're just as bad as we are' is the central strategy here, establishing moral equivalency. I have some sympathy for this part, as Westerners often harp on negative aspects of Russian history or society while forgetting their own.

However, this is all done with a peevish air, with the subtext that Russia is equal to other countries and therefore has an equal right to commit all sorts of violent and aggressive abuses. At the same time as making the West share the blame for its similar crimes, they never allow that Russia's actions are actually morally wrong in any way. It's a dynamic of human rights violations as a merit of national independence, of freedom from political correctness and respect for human dignity (ie, thank god that in our glorious country we can assault gay people in the street and have our security forces torture Muslims with impunity).

I call this stance defensively nationalistic because it is a cynical viewpoint that doesn't allow moral judgements of Russia, and responds to it by trying to make the West just as guilty. There's no attempt to excuse or exalt Russia, just to drag everyone else down to her level.

This sort of nationalism is summed up by the mantra 'my country is always right.' In this case, it stems from internal struggle against an inferiority complex that comes from recent memories of humiliation and impotence (the 90s).

Most of Spooky Lynx's posts are a textbook example of this dynamic.

This sums up well. The constant feel of paranoia and hatred towards the US is bringing them to North Koreans, on the other hand they don't have any moral barriers to enjoy the culture and technological advances that come the the "Evil Country".

Today I learned from my armed forces discussant that morning action in Crimea was specially prepared by the CIA to sparkle Russian intervention. After hearing that I almost choked with my breakfast leaving me in deep wonder about the high level of idiocy and within the russian army. But such behaviour is understandable. After the Kursk incident Putin had to shut the mouth of officers with money, so nowadays they eat from his hand and sing propaganda.

[vilas 477]

latest news in Polish net, i do not know if true, but according to journalists:

Yanukovich is near Moscow in Kremlin sanatorium, and he says that he is still president, new decisions of Ukrainian Parliament are illegal, and "mob" doesn't have right to vote and choose anyone,

if it is true than Moscow makes mistake to keep him, they should give him to Ukrainian people to decide what to do with corrupted politician (we all seen luxury palaces in which he lives, many of us know average Ukrainian poverty) because supporting corrupted person is one of worst thing that can be done in such situation , corrupted politician should never and nowhere feel safe like child murderer should never and nowhere feel safe and Ukrainians should have right to trial him the way they want cause they payed taxes and he suppose to serve them, not they serve him,

in feudalism people serve to king, in modern democracy politicians and public servants ,army, police are to serve to people (tax payers)

Edited February 27, 2014 by vilas

[ProfTournesol 956]

Crimean separatist tensions and Russian military gesticulations at the borders may lead to the next flashpoint : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26366700

[USSRsniper 0]

People need to pull their heads out of their a***** and try build independent government free from US/EU/Russian influence where everyone is equal instead of arguing with each other. In 1991 during Ukrainian independence referendum 92% of population voted in favor for Independence, and as well as I can remember even Russian population was voting in favor. Well of course there were those who though "we want USSR back".

This sums up well. The constant feel of paranoia and hatred towards the US is bringing them to North Koreans, on the other hand they don't have any moral barriers to enjoy the culture and technological advances that come the the "Evil Country".

Why should they love US? Who in their right mind will support country that tells everyone else what to do? For some people that reminds them of communism. Most of the hatred is towards the US government not the actual people.

---------- Post added at 15:22 ---------- Previous post was at 15:13 ----------

Yeah, no. While others certainly didn't have it easy at the time to put mildly, once again thanks to Moscow, it was 7.5 million Ukrainians who starved to death. That's more than how many Jews the Nazis managed to kill during the Holocaust. Starting to understand just why Ukrainians don't consider you a brother?

And what year is it now? 2014, maybe its time to move on. You are telling it in such way as if Russians dream about killing Ukrainians in their sleep.

---------- Post added at 15:30 ---------- Previous post was at 15:22 ----------

Pointing to infamous problems of famous side is good thing. Nationalism is BS. Just because you used to coexist in past doesn't mean that Putin has any entitlement to control people who want to live independently. Austria-Hungary used to coexist too.

Putin could careless as long as Black Sea Fleet bases are still there and Ukraine does not become US puppet government.

[klamacz 448]

What I love about this forums is variety of people from all over the world. It is mostly interesting to read your opinions.

My point of view: I'm Polish and I'm a bit worried about the region stability. I support Ukrainian opposition but I'm kind of aware that there are lots of strong forces around, and everyone's pulling his own strings.

Ukraine is weak right now, economically and politically, but I still hope it will end in favor of normal people living normal lives.

-edit-

normal people in Ukraine are watching this:

and writing this: "Its sooo sad! And the worst thing is still nobody arrested."

Edited February 27, 2014 by klamacz