Soldier protection (dev branch)

[dnk 13]

hmmm....

* Impacts of bullets cause soldiers to ragdoll a bit (flinch) even if they are fully absorbed by armor

Someone on dev branch let us know how that looks.

[-Coulum- 35]

Nothing new really. Before, certain heavy armours (paratrooper armour for example) were so protective it prevented that little flinch people do when shot. BI have changed it so that now, no matter how effective the armour is, the soldiers do that little flinch when shot. At least thats how I understand it from what the devs say and my tests before and after the change.

Really nothing to report home about (although it is nice to consistently see soldiers reacting to hits, even if the reaction isn't all that great).

[clarionhorn 10]

hmmm....

* Impacts of bullets cause soldiers to ragdoll a bit (flinch) even if they are fully absorbed by armor

Someone on dev branch let us know how that looks.

like they got pinched by a crab. i will wait until they implemented blended ragdoll. this is just the beginning.

[-Coulum- 35]

U sure you wan't the ragdoll transitions there and back?

Yep.

Okay... I take it back. I can see why you guys don't want to simply ragdoll the unit after a hit. I was fooling around with ragdolls (quite fun by the way!) to see the transitions and my findings were

• If they ragdoll on their belly they actually animate to prone quite well
  
• If they ragdoll on their back they instantly pop into prone, usually facing a totally different direction then there ragdolled state. Then they spin on their belly to face the direction they were originally facing.
  
• And on top of both of these effects, the gun automatically floats to the ai's back. once he is fully in prone he has to reach over his back and shoulder it again.
  

Here's a video to demonstrate:

I can see why these wouldn't cut it. When they land on their belly its good. When they instantly flip from their back to prone its okay for those used to "arma quirks". When they always re-shoulder their weapon from their back... that's a bit too immersion breaking.

That being said I do think it is a good idea if it could work smoother. But perhaps its not as easy as I or others would have thought it to be.

i will wait until they implemented blended ragdoll. this is just the beginning.

Well, we can hope.

[scarecrow398 43]

They were able to do it in VBS 2 and are doing in VBS 3 why they can't do it in A3?

Probably has something to do with VBS having a larger budget and a dev team nearly twice the size of Arma.

[clarionhorn 10]

correct me if i'm wrong, but blended transitions just means you make a lot of "in between" animations, then play them in segments depending on the action before and after the ragdoll, right? it seems right now the game is missing lots of "in between" animations. people instantly go from belly to prone, for example.

[-Coulum- 35]

• Adjusted soldier personal protection:
  

• Decreased overall helmet protection values to increase significance of head-shots and general lethality of damage to the head.

  
  

• Because of the previous change it was also necessary to halve the explosion shielding of head hitpoint in general to maintain helmet protection levels for collateral indirect damage and explosions.

  
  

• Also fixed HE grenade from underbarrel GL weapon to match his RGO Frag grenade counterpart.

  
  

• Also elevated OPFOR collateral protection for hands and legs for the previous values were not sufficient to create meaningful difference between OPFOR and soldiers of other factions.

  
  

Once again you guys are going in the right direction. These latest changes are really quite close to hitting the sweet spot (for headshots). I encourage you to take it just a bit further. Everything seems just tad bit too weak still - 5.56 are capable of one shotting people at point blank but still are 2 shots at anything over 5 metres and even 3-4 at anything over 100m. If the damage was bumped up just a bit, it would be a pretty awesome balance - yeah helmets are something you are definitely going to want, but no, they are not going to save you from a good shot or a good gun.

I made a mission that artificially multiplies the headshot damage dealt. I found that a multiplier of 1.6 achieved the balance I was looking for. I am not sure how you tweak the system but maybe that its something you could work off of. And of course this is just my opinion. I hope others also contribute their's. Keep up the good work devs!

correct me if i'm wrong, but blended transitions just means you make a lot of "in between" animations, then play them in segments depending on the action before and after the ragdoll, right? it seems right now the game is missing lots of "in between" animations. people instantly go from belly to prone, for example.

I'm am not really sure what the definition is. The way I understand it though, the problem with ragdolls is that they are unpredictable. When you ragdoll there is no way to predict in what position you will land. Therefore it is impossible to create an animation that will move you from that fallen position to an upright position. So what is needed is to dynamically create an animation, in game, depending on how the character falls. Making something that is capable of doing that, from my understanding, is no small task. Making it look believable/natural is even harder. Its why systems like euphoria (which does exactly this - dynamically animates character) are awesome. It does seem that BI has done a bit of this already - in

, at 2:50, you can see that dynamic animation at work. It just hasn't been fully fleshed out to work when the character lands on his back yet. Plus it seems after a ragdoll you are automatically forced to re-shoulder your weapon from your back.

Now there is the option to just make hit animations. It is possible to predict the characters position after the fall/stagger animation (since it is always the same) and then create an animation to bring that position back to the normal upright position. The only reason I am not that keen about it is because it makes things alot more predictable to the player (if you shoot someone and he animates you know he is not dead) and I would be scared that we get the delayed reaction similar to arma 2 hit animations - In arma 2 sometimes you could shoot a civilian and he would literally take 2 or 3 seconds to animate and fall (In SP too). And even then creating staggering/falling/getting up animations isn't a quick or cheap process.

But take all that I say with a grain of salt. There are MANY people here who know tonnes more about this stuff than I. And I could be feeding you false facts. This is just how understood things based on reading and what those people say to me:).

Edited January 19, 2014 by -Coulum-

[roberthammer 582]

To be honest those helmets can only stop pistol bullet like (9mm) or like ach helmet can stop few rounds of old 7.62x39 and not like in A3 - they stop even 6.5mm which would go through the helmet like butter same as 7.62x51

http://www.bulletproofme.com/Body_Armor_Accessories_Helmets.shtml

For more info look this site about armour > http://www.bulletproofme.com/index.shtml

Also BIS consider to add a AP ammo as a option for each rifle

Edited January 18, 2014 by RobertHammer

[Tonci87 163]

Look at these videos

I know it´s close up but they aren´t using anything bigger than 5,56 AK-74 rounds, Helmets and (soft) vests really suck against assault rifles.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Tonci87

[Ckrauslo 12]

The soldier seen in the VBS vid is carrying a plate carrier, the vest it self should give some what of a protection, and when allied to a large Armour give an area of protection, and when shot in video, he is only shot in center area of the back and front from different angles, and i've seen videos and videos and videos and even tried VBS out in a military technology show here, showing the newly purchased virtual training aid for Brazil

[-Coulum- 35]

I know it´s close up but they aren´t using anything bigger than 5,56 AK-74 rounds, Helmets and (soft) vests really suck against assault rifles.

To be honest those helmets can only stop pistol bullet like (9mm) or like ach helmet can stop few rounds of old 7.62x39 and not like in A3 - they stop even 6.5mm which would go through the helmet like butter same as 7.62x51

Yeah helmets really aren't that effective against rifles at close range. How does this sound

• Direct hits from any rifle will one shot kill
  
• Indirect glancing hits from 556 will not
  
• Indirect glancing hits from 6.5 at 300m+ will not
  
• Indirect glancing hits from 7.62 at 600m+ will not
  

Personally thats the kind of balance I think helmets should offer. They should offer some protection against rifles - but defnitely not at point blank or against direct head on hits. I have made a mission that tries to achieve this balance by multiplying damage (by 1.6). Do you think that kind of balance would work?

There should be (albeit rare) conditions that allow you to get hit in the head and survive. There have been reports of soldiers getting hit and saved by their helmets from AK's. Of course the quality of the ammo might of had to do with it but still, it is possible. And maybe these helmets are not only be kevlar any more...

[colosseum 34]

I'm just saying, but whatever has been changed recently does not seem to be realistic at all. I just attempted a playthrough of the first campaign level after not playing ArmA 3 since last November. I had picked up a 7.62mm M14 EBR and watched AAF troops take three hits to center mass, twitch, and then keep shooting at and eventually kill me. Yes, they were definitely hits - the enemy troops twitched with each hit. Furthermore, this was at 200m range.

I hope this is being worked on as the game is entirely unplayable with this system. 7.62x51mm NATO rounds don't stop for shit (even rifle plates), and a hit to the chest with even one round of 7.62mm ball will take anyone out of the fight - even if they're wearing Level IV rifle plates.

[chortles 263]

@ Colosseum: Are you talking about stable branch or dev branch? I ask this because stable branch has not been updated for over a month, while all changes are on dev branch, and I don't know how many of the latest changes on dev branch will make it to stable branch as part of Tuesday's "ADAPT" update.

[colosseum 34]

@ Colosseum: Are you talking about stable branch or dev branch? I ask this because stable branch has not been updated for over a month, while all changes are on dev branch, and I don't know how many of the latest changes on dev branch will make it to stable branch as part of Tuesday's "ADAPT" update.

Ah, that probably explains it... was running the stable branch.

Anyway, I'm not "mad" at anyone (the game is still in development after all)... was just extremely frustrated after attempting to play the campaign and realizing my favorite game wasn't working as expected. :(

[roberthammer 582]

Ah, that probably explains it... was running the stable branch.

Anyway, I'm not "mad" at anyone (the game is still in development after all)... was just extremely frustrated after attempting to play the campaign and realizing my favorite game wasn't working as expected. :(

Dont worry mate , i was pissed too when i played the adapt part - those CSAT guys are easier to kill than AAF , because AAF plates can stop 7.62x51 by magic heh

[colosseum 34]

Right - I would expect that. The CSAT infantry just have load bearing vests (no plates or even soft armor as far as I can tell). It looks to me like the AAF and NATO have traditional plate carriers - but there's not a piece of body armor in the world that can stop 7.62x51mm NATO rounds and not put the user out of the fight! I think Level IV plates are good for one or two (at most) hits of .30-caliber, but that soldier isn't going to just "twitch" from the impact and immediately shoot back and kill me...

Would be great to see this system fleshed out more by Bohemia as it's definitely on the right track otherwise, though. Let's just make the hits seem more realistic!

[mjolnir66 48]

I hope this is being worked on as the game is entirely unplayable with this system. 7.62x51mm NATO rounds don't stop for shit (even rifle plates), and a hit to the chest with even one round of 7.62mm ball will take anyone out of the fight - even if they're wearing Level IV rifle plates.

I'll just tell that to my mate who took a 7.62R (not NATO, but just as powerful) round to his back plate from 10m away then shall I? Because I seem to remember him getting back up and fighting back.

[wattywatts 76]

We appreciate all the feedback, but any feature must be designed carefully, because ArmA is:

A) a game and thus should be fun

B) ArmA and should be as authentic as possible

These two conditions could form the following outcomes:

A) is fun and is authentic - which is an ideal state

B) is fun but is not completely authentic - this is an acceptable state, as fun has priority over authenticity

C) is not fun but is authentic - which is an unacceptable state

D) is not fun nor authentic - which is epic fail

This is one of the reasons why we have a "Task force balance" - to find the point where the fun and authenticity are in an ideal correlation.

So, please, stay patient, this feature is still under development.

[sofianebilal 10]

We appreciate all the feedback, but any feature must be designed carefully, because ArmA is:

A) a game and thus should be fun

B) ArmA and should be as authentic as possible

These two conditions could form the following outcomes:

A) is fun and is authentic - which is an ideal state

B) is fun but is not completely authentic - this is an acceptable state, as fun has priority over authenticity

C) is not fun but is authentic - which is an unacceptable state

D) is not fun nor authentic - which is epic fail

This is one of the reasons why we have a "Task force balance" - to find the point where the fun and authenticity are in an ideal correlation.

So, please, stay patient, this feature is still under development.

for me and probably for lot of people arma 3 is fun when it is authentic!

if not, what would be the interest of a played arma?

at that time I was rather play BF4 or call of duty, or even counter strike!

for me :

arma=simulation, authenticity

[Tonci87 163]

We appreciate all the feedback, but any feature must be designed carefully, because ArmA is:

A) a game and thus should be fun

B) ArmA and should be as authentic as possible

These two conditions could form the following outcomes:

A) is fun and is authentic - which is an ideal state

B) is fun but is not completely authentic - this is an acceptable state, as fun has priority over authenticity

C) is not fun but is authentic - which is an unacceptable state

D) is not fun nor authentic - which is epic fail

This is one of the reasons why we have a "Task force balance" - to find the point where the fun and authenticity are in an ideal correlation.

So, please, stay patient, this feature is still under development.

I´m eager to see how you will get from D to A

[windies 11]

We appreciate all the feedback, but any feature must be designed carefully, because ArmA is:

A) a game and thus should be fun

B) ArmA and should be as authentic as possible

These two conditions could form the following outcomes:

A) is fun and is authentic - which is an ideal state

B) is fun but is not completely authentic - this is an acceptable state, as fun has priority over authenticity

C) is not fun but is authentic - which is an unacceptable state

D) is not fun nor authentic - which is epic fail

This is one of the reasons why we have a "Task force balance" - to find the point where the fun and authenticity are in an ideal correlation.

So, please, stay patient, this feature is still under development.

That's always going to be a very subjective point though and it's going to determined by your core audience most times. Your "task force balance" may say that something is B when for your core audience it's closer to D. I think it's important not to implement things for the sake of implementing things, for example if soldier protection can't be done right or can't come to a close approximation of what a majority would consider "right" then it's probably not an endeavor worth pursuing.

Throwing modified damage numbers into the equation != an authentic or close approximation of soldier protection unless the other factors that go along with soldier protection are implemented at the same time, like knockdown and incapacitated states. It's not fun lodging 3 bullets in someone's chest and then watching them do a little "shuffle" and spray a clip into your face and neither is it authentic.

[clarionhorn 10]

may i suggest that the reason it's not working out may be due to your focus on two competing notions? i mean, when it comes to fun, subjective as it may be, you pretty much cannot be authentic. it's like trying to mix water and oil, don't do it. you'll fail.

don't bother with fun, it's a subjective thing that you cannot possibly please everyone. there are no references, no measurements, no real life data to help you design "fun".

[chortles 263]

@ clarionhorn: You missed the boat on the "fun and authenticity" direction months ago... thank gosh.

@ WattyWatts: I'm definitely encouraged by your response, and I've definitely got the patience to see where you go next! Thanks for your reply. :D

[samyg 3]

Let's be real here, those who are unhappy with how 5.56 handles (in stable branch) against combatants wearing plate carrier body armor are looking more for fun than authenticity. Standard steel and/or ceramic plates can take several (5-7) 5.56mm shots before penetration will occur. That is authenticity. Now, how can you make it fun AND somewhat authentic? Make it so it take 3 shots to take somewhat out. This of course means that advanced plate carrier armor technology has never actually advanced in this "futuristic world" that is Arma 3 and that really cuts into things.

[windies 11]

Let's be real here, those who are unhappy with how 5.56 handles (in stable branch) against combatants wearing plate carrier body armor are looking more for fun than authenticity. Standard steel and/or ceramic plates can take several (5-7) 5.56mm shots before penetration will occur. That is authenticity. Now, how can you make it fun AND somewhat authentic? Make it so it take 3 shots to take somewhat out. This of course means that advanced plate carrier armor technology has never actually advanced in this "futuristic world" that is Arma 3 and that really cuts into things.

I would be fine if it took 5-7 shots to penetrate a plate carrier, as long as there are consequences to taking 5-7 rounds. The problem is that we are balancing one side of the equation and not the other.