Soldier protection (dev branch)

[bravo409 13]

I think DEVs need to fix the main problems which is on everyones mind and thats the huge FPS hits this game does to big and small computers...Then next should be AI,then HIt damage and Finally more content like promised and not a year later either,or they will see most of there FAns find other games to play and Arma 3 will be to davy jones locker.. The way I see it if some regular person can make a great Ai called KAI which by the way no one gets to play except the elite players that made it which totally on far considering that mod could make Arma the best game out,any way I digress.Things can be done and think I pointed out some great needed things.

[progamer 14]

I think DEVs need to fix the main problems which is on everyones mind and thats the huge FPS hits this game does to big and small computers...Then next should be AI,then HIt damage and Finally more content like promised and not a year later either,or they will see most of there FAns find other games to play and Arma 3 will be to davy jones locker.. The way I see it if some regular person can make a great Ai called KAI which by the way no one gets to play except the elite players that made it which totally on far considering that mod could make Arma the best game out,any way I digress.Things can be done and think I pointed out some great needed things.

Let's just stop making parts of the game better and more realistic so that the developers can work on what you want?

What other games would they go too? Arma has no competition.

[bravo409 13]

on the contrary they do still have competition operation flash point dragon rising is still a good game and the ai is a whole lot smarter and damage isn't 20 shots to kill the enemy, and also doesn't have bad fps problems either but bad thing is it was never finished in the sence that they could have done more with it. anyway I digress its niether here or there games have there problems and arma suffers a lot. But anyway I'm nt here to talk about this Bcombat has the anwser to Ai problem soon it will be out. Also he has fixed the Damage so it doesn't take 20 shots any more to kill enemy.

[oukej 2911]

Seeing your reaction, the logic wish of having helmets just cover the part they are supposed to cover is not possible?

Pretty cryptic. What are the bounds?

We'd all like more detailed and better simulated protection using the fire geometry, however, the proper implementation of it has currently been impossible. We are investigating possibilities, but I'd like to stay away from details and promises as long as we can't clearly say "Hey, we've done it and its working" or vice versa.

There are more aspects of it - e.g. the injury simulation. Taking me to:

...what about hit reactions... ragdolling ...

U sure you wan't the ragdoll transitions there and back? ;)

It's pretty apparent that the new body armor system only exemplifies problems with itself and other mechanics. We should just ignore that? That's not really feedback. I still have no idea what we're looking at nor what for. It pretty much boils down to .kju's question at the start. What is BIS aim, what has BIS changed and what do you expect from it (and us)?

The changes/tweaks are aimed to simply improve the experience of the game "as it is now" - increase the variety and benefits of wearing vests/helmets (unlike the previous state). A kind of a tradeoff between the possibilities which are currently in the game, realism and enjoyment (liek ...how do you expect to simulate all the things BI, if u no has inkapacitaishun, bl33din' n stuffs?!?! :angryfire: ;))

[windies 11]

We'd all like more detailed and better simulated protection using the fire geometry, however, the proper implementation of it has currently been impossible. We are investigating possibilities, but I'd like to stay away from details and promises as long as we can't clearly say "Hey, we've done it and its working" or vice versa.

There are more aspects of it - e.g. the injury simulation. Taking me to:

U sure you wan't the ragdoll transitions there and back? ;)

The changes/tweaks are aimed to simply improve the experience of the game "as it is now" - increase the variety and benefits of wearing vests/helmets (unlike the previous state). A kind of a tradeoff between the possibilities which are currently in the game, realism and enjoyment (liek ...how do you expect to simulate all the things BI, if u no has inkapacitaishun, bl33din' n stuffs?!?! :angryfire: ;))

We need something better than the two step they do when hit and it's not even accurate as sometimes you can hit someone 2-3 times and they don't even flinch and just terminator on. Something visual to know you've hit and something realistic which would be a stumble or a fall which is the human reaction to being shot and to pain. Not saying it needs to be ragdolls, it could be some animation to ragdoll to give it variety.

As for the new armor system, the problem is that it takes us outside of the bounds of any kind of realism simply so that we can say "Hey, vests are different now! They have a purpose!". You say it's to improve the experience of the game but I think that feedback is saying that it does the opposite. I realize it's a tradeoff between what's currently possible and what we all would want to have implemented, but it fails on both counts of realism and enjoyment. It's a case of if it can't be done right, it really doesn't need to be done.

[13islucky 10]

U sure you wan't the ragdoll transitions there and back? ;)

Well, maybe -Coulum-'s reactions may be a little too much in my opinion, but how about:

Shot to the head causes ragdoll, whether dead or not.

Chest shots from higher caliber can either force crouch (kinda like staggering and dropping to a knee) and rarely cause ragdoll. Smaller caliber rounds should have a nice thump sound when hitting but not really cause any sort of negative effect.

Legs could lead to ragdoll, or maybe force prone.

Not quite sure about the arms, though. Never been shot there (or in the legs or head either, but I think I can assume what it would be there)

Maybe the falling animation (the one that plays when you fall from beyond a certain height) can be used somehow, but I don't really know.

Also, this last one's just me, but maybe the OPFOR fatigues can have reduced protection against rifles but higher protection against smaller arms (sub guns, pistols). The material that they can believably be made of would probably not resist rifle fire that well (as would most soft body armour).

[Bouben 3]

Well, maybe -Coulum-'s reactions may be a little too much in my opinion, but how about:

Shot to the head causes ragdoll, whether dead or not.

Chest shots from higher caliber can either force crouch (kinda like staggering and dropping to a knee) and rarely cause ragdoll. Smaller caliber rounds should have a nice thump sound when hitting but not really cause any sort of negative effect.

Legs could lead to ragdoll, or maybe force prone.

Not quite sure about the arms, though. Never been shot there (or in the legs or head either, but I think I can assume what it would be there)

Maybe the falling animation (the one that plays when you fall from beyond a certain height) can be used somehow, but I don't really know.

Also, this last one's just me, but maybe the OPFOR fatigues can have reduced protection against rifles but higher protection against smaller arms (sub guns, pistols). The material that they can believably be made of would probably not resist rifle fire that well (as would most soft body armour).

I would prefer animations instead of ragdoll. Of course, if BI could get something similar to Euphoria, then cool. But I think that is highly unlikely.

[Tonci87 163]

U sure you wan't the ragdoll transitions there and back? ;)

Yes, at least for a few days on Devbranch to test it. I honestly think that this would be a more promising approach to make thing better NOW. We can give you Feedback on the Ragdoll stuff. I´m sure that we´ll find some usefull things and I don´t mind how they might look now.

[13islucky 10]

I would prefer animations instead of ragdoll. Of course, if BI could get something similar to Euphoria, then cool. But I think that is highly unlikely.

Yes, of course. Euphoria is a lot to ask for, especially since the way it works is that they animate every part thousands of times to fit whatever possibility may arise, but animations like staggering, falling down and getting back up etc. would be nice.

However, as it is mentioned "in current bounds" and I assume that having new animations implemented takes time, ragdoll may be a good compromise for the moment.

[oukej 2911]

You say it's to improve the experience of the game but I think that feedback is saying that it does the opposite.

In current/upcoming update (not today's) you should see some changes about which I'd like to read your feedback.

As said previously. This whole thing is just one thing we can do more or less immediately.

That one thing doesn't mean it's all and by far not the end of the story. But for now we should probably stay away from the "could-be's" and "should-be's" in this topic - let's keep it more about tweaking the current status, more about stronger/weaker, better/worse.

Edited January 14, 2014 by oukej

[Kirill 1]

Funny. You have added protective vests. But you do not understand what to do with them. What to do with the balance ...

Overall system hitpoints - wrong. But if you are not going to change it (you know what I mean)) - we have one solution. Fix system hit points as in the last DEV version and add effects of non-fatal injuries. It's all ... Add animation and effects- it is necessary. You can not get away from this. Disease "hit points" is not treated differently ...

True geometry helmet - the same well.

[L3TUC3 32]

The changes/tweaks are aimed to simply improve the experience of the game "as it is now" - increase the variety and benefits of wearing vests/helmets (unlike the previous state). A kind of a tradeoff between the possibilities which are currently in the game, realism and enjoyment (liek ...how do you expect to simulate all the things BI, if u no has inkapacitaishun, bl33din' n stuffs?!?! :angryfire: ;))

Thanks for your post. It explains quite a bit.

I'll wait and see the changes before commenting again.

[windies 11]

In current/upcoming update (not today's) you should see some changes about which I'd like to read your feedback.

As said previously. This whole thing is just one thing we can do more or less immediately.

That one thing doesn't mean it's all and by far not the end of the story. But for now we should probably stay away from the "could-be's" and "should-be's" in this topic - let's keep it more about tweaking the current status, more about stronger/weaker, better/worse.

I will be honest, the only feedback you're going to get out of me is simply that Knockdowns need to become a reality for both immersion sake and gameplay sake and the way the armor is done now, without some sort of way of calculating penetration and ballistics on the armor or vest, everyone is a super soldier who can take 4-5 bullets which again kind of destroys immersion and with the wonky hit detection of what actual part of the body you did hit and the way it seems to spread damage around, it makes it even worse. Without knockdowns and properly simulated body armor plain and simply it destroys immersion and game play. There's not a better way of saying it I don't think.

I understand it's something you can do more or less immediately, but really if it can't be done properly it shouldn't be done at all. It would be time better spent on something else that you could possibly do properly.

[Gutsnav 13]

Well, maybe -Coulum-'s reactions may be a little too much in my opinion, but how about:

Shot to the head causes ragdoll, whether dead or not.

Chest shots from higher caliber can either force crouch (kinda like staggering and dropping to a knee) and rarely cause ragdoll. Smaller caliber rounds should have a nice thump sound when hitting but not really cause any sort of negative effect.

Legs could lead to ragdoll, or maybe force prone.

Not quite sure about the arms, though. Never been shot there (or in the legs or head either, but I think I can assume what it would be there)

Maybe the falling animation (the one that plays when you fall from beyond a certain height) can be used somehow, but I don't really know.

Also, this last one's just me, but maybe the OPFOR fatigues can have reduced protection against rifles but higher protection against smaller arms (sub guns, pistols). The material that they can believably be made of would probably not resist rifle fire that well (as would most soft body armour).

Yes, the OPFOR fatigues do seem to stop higher caliber rounds too effectively (6.5, 7.62 rounds).

[-Coulum- 35]

The changes/tweaks are aimed to simply improve the experience of the game "as it is now" - increase the variety and benefits of wearing vests/helmets (unlike the previous state). A kind of a tradeoff between the possibilities which are currently in the game, realism and enjoyment (liek ...how do you expect to simulate all the things BI, if u no has inkapacitaishun, bl33din' n stuffs?!?! )

Okay thank you. Of course not what I was hoping for, but at least we know better how to provide feedback. Here is mine (though it sounds like you guys already know what needs to happen)

Basically you want armour to have enough of effect so it matters what you wear and what you were shot with, but you don't want it to be too effective and ruin the unforgiving nature many love about the game. This table summarizes what I feel would achieve the optimal balance using only the features we already have in game.

At 200m

[TABLE=class: grid, width: 500]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]Caliber of Hit[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Blufor/Inde Plate Carrier[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Opfor Fatigues[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Opfor Fatigues + LBV combo[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Blufor/Inde Helmets[/TD]

[TD=align: center]Opfor Helmets[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]5.56[/TD]

[TD=align: center]4[/TD]

[TD=align: center]2[/TD]

[TD=align: center]3[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=align: center]2[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]6.5[/TD]

[TD=align: center]3[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=align: center]2[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]7.62[/TD]

[TD=align: center]2[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: center]12.7+[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

Each number represents the shots to kill at 200m. You guys are pretty close already. I know that its complex to get consistent damages (good thing) due to the way arma handles damage (which I really don't fullly understand) but those are general "goals" I would have. Of course you could make different versions of an item slightly better or worse to add some more variance.

For the most part Vests and Uniforms perform almost fine right now. They should be a wee bit less effective at range.

Helmets need more work on the other hand. Basically they seem too effective a deflecting shots leading them to often require 2 and sometimes even 3 shots to kills. Rifle rounds should generally result in one shot kills when they hit a helmet at ranges in and around 200m.

U sure you wan't the ragdoll transitions there and back?

Yep. Sure it would bring some complaints with it ("Ai come back from the dead! how could BI let this bug in", or "Ai get stunned then instaflips from ragdoll and headshots me!"), and I can see why QA would have problems with it, but I don't think it is something that should be dismissed too quickly. Seeing a guy take a shot to the face and flinch a bit would probably be hated more than occasionally seeing a guy snap to prone from ragdoll.

[clarionhorn 10]

i shot a civilian 5 times in the head at point blank range with the nato pistol(chunks of skull fell off his head) and he's still alive. i don't understand this damage system. please explain to us how it works

[Kirill 1]

I think you can not use a rag doll for non-fatal injuries (except in cases of loss of consciousness). Standard rifle bullet does not reject man by 1-2 meters, not all instantly relaxes muscles. This should be the animation.

I believe that all weapons more than 7.62mm should "kill" when injured limbs.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Kirill

[SteveJA 12]

From my limited understanding (please accept my apology if it's way out) currently the full penatration/hit box etc simulation is not possible at this time. In order for gear to have an impact on gameplay bi have introduced a revised hitpoint system on top of the original hitbox system (arms heads etc)

Assuming the above is along the right lines, I would like to put forward two points. One, like many have already suggested, introducing a more pronounced reaction to a hit. Be it fallimg to the ground l, agony, etc. The other is to prehaps introduce a random roll effect on the level of damaged caused from a bullet strike. For example if a unarmoured unit is hit with a 5.56 he will be incapacitated with one or two strikes. A unit with full armour might be hit with one to five rounds, before being incapacitated. While this is by no means a perfect system, I belive it will better simulate the randomness of a round hitting the front plate and causing little effect, and a round that hits an unprotected area (ie neck, sides etc). Thus the risk of being one shoted remains high yet there is a mesureable impact on wearing armour.

Hopefully the fact I am sat in a costa waiting for the car to get sorted, hasn't provoked me to write drivel and that some of the above actually makes sence.

[Gutsnav 13]

"Adjusted explosives to maintain the protection of grenadier vests against explosives and grenades"

Shouldn't the Engineers (EODs) & Explosive Specialists have more resistance to explosives also?

[2nd ranger 282]

Shouldn't the Engineers (EODs) & Explosive Specialists have more resistance to explosives also?

Should a machinegunner take less damage from a machine gun?

[Ckrauslo 12]

They could do the protection and damaging like this, they know how

---------- Post added at 22:47 ---------- Previous post was at 22:47 ----------

Would be lot more realistic

[-Coulum- 35]

• Continued work upon soldier protection:
  

• This contains especially further changes to helmets
  
  
• Minor tweaks in ammunition, precise adjusting of minimalHitRange values, damage scaling rounds up, pistol ammunition damage adjustments and grenade tweaks
  
  
• Adjusted explosives to maintain the protection of grenadier vests against explosives and grenades
  
  
• Minor changes in soldier equipment due to changes in headgear. Purpose of classes is not affected in any meaningful manner.
  
  

Headshots still need to be more lethal (of course in my opinion only). This video gives an idea of how well different calibre fair against the different helmets (all helmets seem to protect more less the same). 7.62 testing is right from the start, 6.5 starts at (1:46) and 5.56 starts at (3:43).

To sum it up:

Current Headshots to Kill at Close Range

7.62:

• 1 shot if in the centre of the head.
  
• 2 shots if one is slightly of centre.
  
• 
  

6.5:

• 1 shot if in the centre of the head and at point blank range (less than 5 feet).
  
• 2 shots if not at point blank range or if one shot is slightly off centre.
  
• 
  

5.56:

• 2 shots if in the centre of head.
  
• 3 shots if one shot is extremely off centre.
  
• 
  

This sucks not only from a realism perspective (which we will have to accept will not be satisfied at this moment) but also from a gameplay perspective. With this sort of protection bullets simply aren't scary, unless they are 762+. 556 at anything over 50 metres simply are not a threat to a fresh uninjured soldier. Not even a chance of being lethal.

Changes I Would Make

I believe that 5.56 should behave as the 7.62 currently does. Then it would follow that 6.5 behaves even better with lethal/effective ranges being longer than the 5.56. And 7.62 even longer than that.

I think that would be fair. The helmets will save you against pistol round and occasionally 5.56 but not against 6.5 or 7.62 unless at longer ranges. They're not necessarily a life saver but still worth taking just in case.

Vests generally need some nerfing as well though I haven't tested them enough to really formulate more detailed feedback than that.

Edited January 16, 2014 by -Coulum-

[clarionhorn 10]

helmets mainly protect against shrapnel and trauma, bis does not need to worry themselves on penetration value. since you cannot properly implement helmet coverage, just make bullets go right through and give it another kind of benefit, maybe decrease the chance of shrapnel damage to head from grenades if wearing a helmet.

[Ckrauslo 12]

helmets mainly protect against shrapnel and trauma, bis does not need to worry themselves on penetration value. since you cannot properly implement helmet coverage, just make bullets go right through and give it another kind of benefit, maybe decrease the chance of shrapnel damage to head from grenades if wearing a helmet.

They were able to do it in VBS 2 and are doing in VBS 3 why they can't do it in A3?

[-Coulum- 35]

They were able to do it in VBS 2 and are doing in VBS 3 why they can't do it in A3?

Are you sure they were able to do this in VBS2? As far as I can see in your the previous vid, the vest covers the whole chest, not just the small area that would be covered by the plate. How do you know the helmet only covers the top of the head. I actually am not sure my-self on the exact VBS mechanics but I wouldn't be so quick to jump to the "VBS does it perfectly" conclusion.

Regardless they are different games/programs. And just because something is generally possible doesn't mean it is possible to do in a reasonable time/manner. Obviously BI, at this time, is not able to get that kind of detail in. They say they are working on it, but have been unsuccessful up until now. Time to move on and suggest how to make the system better in ways they are capable of changing - until they do get around to implementing bigger changes.

helmets mainly protect against shrapnel and trauma, bis does not need to worry themselves on penetration value. since you cannot properly implement helmet coverage, just make bullets go right through and give it another kind of benefit, maybe decrease the chance of shrapnel damage to head from grenades if wearing a helmet.

But what about for pistol shots? should they also go right through the helmet?