Enemies have more "life" after last update?

[armilio 14]

Maybe i'm crazy. But today, after last patch, I was testing a mod, in a map where i put many opfor soldiers with AI disabled, and... enemies need 3 shot in body - with an MX - for a kill, instead 2. With a Mk14, 2 shoot instead 1. With a ACP .45, 3-4 shoot instead 2-3.

First, i have thought the problem may be the mod (TMR mod), but disabled that, "problem" remain. Problem because, in my opinion, even can take 2 shoot is too much.

I am the only one with this issue?

Edited December 11, 2013 by Armilio

[-Coulum- 35]

Its because they are wearing body armour (Was implemented in this patch). The survival rate is not all that unrealistic but the other effects on target are not all that realistic. Also armour seems to cover the whole of each hitpoint - so a helmet covers the whole head, not just the top.

Armour is a feature that I am happy to have, but it definitely needs to be further fleshed out. Opfor actually have less armour than blufor. See how many 6.5's a UAV controller or paratrooper can take to the torso before dying. Surviving 6 shots in the armour is not all that unrealistic but there would be other side effects in reality that are not simulated in the game and definitely should be.

I am hoping BIS aren't finished with body armour just yet.

[VanZant 48]

It is the new and unbalanced armor system. You are not the only one.

Items have armor values that decreases damage, and it is good, but a lot of work is still needed to make it credible.

[GReeves 10]

Coulum pretty much summed up my thoughts on the armor issue. Players and AI SHOULD survive that many shots, but they should have some serious side effects. I've seen videos of people getting sniped with 7.62mm rifles, falling to the ground, and getting back up to move to cover. Not sure if this has been discussed before, but maybe there should be some kind of "adrenaline rush" feature that gives you enough time, when not completely downed or killed, to sprint to cover before the effects set in. Sort of like taking a serious hit with the ACE wounding system active and passing out a few moments later.

[armilio 14]

I thought body armor is already present in game, because in-real-world 1 shoot in body can be enough for a KO (not a death, a KO), even with a body armor (depends on caliber). So 2 shoot, i thought, is a compromise. :raisebrow:

I'm perplexed.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Armilio

[Maslofski 10]

its a very unacurate basic armor system, and probably not even finished, so it might get refined, at latest in moded gear

[armilio 14]

There is already a mod can fix o replace this system? maybe medic-mod like XMedSys?

[semiconductor 309]

It takes 5 (five!) shots in torso with 6.5 mm rifle to kill a soldier that is standing two meters away from player. It takes 3 shots form marksman rifle to kill the same guy.

And you only need 1-2 shots in torso with marksman rifle to kill a guy in Team Fortress 2.

Cartoon hat simulator turns out to be more realistic than Arma 3. So, yeah, developers shoud do something about that new armor system as soon as possible.

[armilio 14]

It takes 5 (five!) shots in torso with 6.5 mm rifle to kill a soldier that is standing two meters away from player. It takes 3 shots form marksman rifle to kill the same guy.

And you only need 1-2 shots in torso with marksman rifle to kill a guy in Team Fortress 2.

Cartoon hat simulator turns out to be more realistic than Arma 3. So, yeah, developers shoud do something about that new armor system as soon as possible.

In chest, from very low distance, against opfor rifleman, is 3 bullets, i'm sure.

But from 300m, counting bullet hit arm and not chest, average...is the same thing for me, yes, 4-5-6 bullet.

[13islucky 10]

Try moving back a bit. In theory if you are too close the bullet will fragment due to the extreme velocities and not penetrate the armour, whereas at not so long ranges the bullet won't. It's worth trying, if anything.

Seriously, though. What you're saying is too vague. Which marksman rifle? What was the target? Was he wearing a vest, and was it a load bearing vest or a plate carrier? These all are factors that you have to consider. The plate carriers (NATO, AAF vests) do take a hefty bit of punishment, as they do IN REAL LIFE. Load bearers, like the CSAT harness, usually have greater capacity but no plates that stop bullets. Also, here I found a relevant piece of information that I've taken off another forum and edited to make relevant:

I don't know what they issue in other branches but in the army we have ESAPI plates for heavy high-velocity small arms and low-velocity small arms. In front and behind the actual plate we also have soft armor which stops and slows down low-velocity rounds and shrapnel. I'm going to assume that the NATO soldier utilizes this body armor issued to all US soldiers. Even the IOTV armor we had back in 07-08 for those sorts of situations had ESAPI and soft armor but those were stupid as ********* and I'm glad we didn't have to use them again. I think they still issue them out to non-combat MOS soldiers though.

Now most importantly, you are COMPLETELY and utterly wrong. I don't know where you got your information from, but I would like to take this time to correct you. Your misinformation regarding body armor is very weird and I'm confused by why you think that. Is this what the general civilian population thinks about the armor we use overseas? It's some plate that cracks after 1-2 shots? I'm going on a limb but I think you're referring to some 1980's armor that is no longer used except by psychos that have been living underground for the past 4 decades.

I've personally lit up a damaged (in 3 places) ESAPI plate overseas with Five(5) 7.62x39 rounds from an AK47 we had confiscated, Seven (7) rounds from a 9mm from my M9, and One (1) .308 shot from one of my soldier's M240. Guess how many penetrated the ESAPI plate? ZERO.

It survived a .308 shot from 25 meters away AFTER being shot 12 different times. I don't know if you know how good that is, but that's pretty damn good. My 1SG was more surprised than myself. Rightfully so.

I will tell you now, even though I have never been shot in my armor, if a 9mm were to hit my plate I would most definitely not be phased by it. Grateful it didn't kill me? Yes. Hurt? No.

I would not be incapacitated at all like you claim. If it hit my plate I would be shocked that they could actually hit me and then laugh because it didn't matter that they did. If a 7.62 or .308 can't penetrate it at 25m then it will not penetrate it at 300+ meters. It will not kill me. It will not render me combat-ineffective.

Now, if I got shot in the legs, well...there's another thread on that and that holds some actual truth.

[roberthammer 582]

btw http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?169985-Soldier-protection

[armilio 14]

Try moving back a bit. In theory if you are too close the bullet will fragment due to the extreme velocities and not penetrate the armour, whereas at not so long ranges the bullet won't. It's worth trying, if anything.

Seriously, though. What you're saying is too vague. Which marksman rifle? What was the target? Was he wearing a vest, and was it a load bearing vest or a plate carrier? These all are factors that you have to consider. The plate carriers (NATO, AAF vests) do take a hefty bit of punishment, as they do IN REAL LIFE. Load bearers, like the CSAT harness, usually have greater capacity but no plates that stop bullets. Also, here I found a relevant piece of information that I've taken off another forum and edited to make relevant:

The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

There are many level of body armor protection and plates. If you are a light infantry soldier (like many times we are in the game), you cannot use the max protection-plates in all body, because is too heavy. You must choose: protection or the ability to run and sprint? So, you can use best plates (the SAPI plates) in some point (like on heart/front chest) and they are good, but you are not completaly immune against all AR bullet in all body. And 5.56 is more penetrative of 7.62x39 o 7,62x51, and i think 6.5 have the same penetrative power of 5.56.

P.s: I do my test in-game against rifleman standard opfor soldier, with an MX, from 10m to 400m. The issue "be too close" i don't think is simulated in the game.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Armilio

[roberthammer 582]

Guys test the new version of dev branch - its much better

[Smurf 12]

That 1 shot 1 kill old R6 fashion is outdated. Armor exists and it works.

What is wrong is enemy reaction to getting shot - NONE! This and a limited medical system without unconscious states (you can argue over this) and bleeding (not arguable - this IS missing). Once they get all their shits together this will be beatiful.

[armilio 14]

That 1 shot 1 kill old R6 fashion is outdated. Armor exists and it works.

Yes but... careful.

Ok, armour work...but if you are hit by 1-2-3 7.62 bullet, is like hammered. Sometimes (depends how and where you are hit), your playing time is finish and you need rest and recover. You don't die, but you don't come back to fight in few seconds, or minutes.

Or at least, this is what I know.

P.s: Maybe we saying the same things. :D

Edited December 12, 2013 by Armilio

[pharoah 65]

After playing a few missions tonight, i've realised three things:

1. BIS have released a helicopter (the new Lynx lookalike) with a bug (if the rotors are turning and someone joins....the engine dies);

2. they've now made enemy AI soldiers extremely difficult to kill. I put 5 rounds (okay it was an M4 5.56mm NATO round) into an enemy soldier whilst he reloaded then killed me. 6 rounds; and

3. they've now gone on friggin holiday.

BIS, who the hell does your QA?

[semiconductor 309]

Try moving back a bit. In theory if you are too close the bullet will fragment due to the extreme velocities and not penetrate the armour, whereas at not so long ranges the bullet won't. It's worth trying, if anything.

Seriously, though. What you're saying is too vague. Which marksman rifle? What was the target? Was he wearing a vest, and was it a load bearing vest or a plate carrier? These all are factors that you have to consider. The plate carriers (NATO, AAF vests) do take a hefty bit of punishment, as they do IN REAL LIFE. Load bearers, like the CSAT harness, usually have greater capacity but no plates that stop bullets. Also, here I found a relevant piece of information that I've taken off another forum and edited to make relevant:

Just tested everything again in Editor and nothing changed much:[table=width: 700, class: grid]

[tr]

[td]MX 6.5mm rifle

Rifleman (B_Soldier_F) with Carrier Lite (Green)

11 meters accroding to distance command

All shots hit center of target's spine

5 shots to kill.[/td]

[td]Mk 18 ABR 7.62 mm / Rahim 7.62 mm

Rifleman (B_Soldier_F) with Carrier Lite (Green)

11 meters accroding to distance command

All shots hit center of target's spine

3 shots to kill with both rifles.[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

I also tested how many shots with 5.56mm M16A4 can handle a USMC Rifleman in Arma 2 in similar circumstances and the answer is zero, he dies after first shot at his back.

Maybe this new penetration system is realistic in terms of surviveability but lack of noticeable negative consequences of wearing heavy vest and being hit makes new system feel completely unrealistic in general. It certainly needs to be polished futher or everyone can just run around with couple of machine gun belts in their heads. :D

In chest, from very low distance, against opfor rifleman, is 3 bullets, i'm sure

It seems Opfor riflemen are less protected than Blufor folks. Edited December 12, 2013 by Semiconductor

[MissionCreep 12]

I have enemies get hit at 200 m with rounds from a mounted 50 cal from a technical - they convulse for a second fall down spring up again in a split second and continue on shooting from the standing position until getting hit with another burst. Unrealsitic, IMHO.

[Smurf 12]

Yes but... careful.

Ok, armour work...but if you are hit by 1-2-3 7.62 bullet, is like hammered. Sometimes (depends how and where you are hit), your playing time is finish and you need rest and recover. You don't die, but you don't come back to fight in few seconds, or minutes.

Or at least, this is what I know.

P.s: Maybe we saying the same things. :D

Yes, same thing. Try TPW_Fall, it's a huge game changer. Tweak the other mods as you will but leave Fall enabled.

[13islucky 10]

Maybe this new penetration system is realistic in terms of surviveability but lack of noticeable negative consequences of wearing heavy vest and being hit makes new system feel completely unrealistic in general. It certainly needs to be polished futher or everyone can just run around with couple of machine gun belts in their heads. :D

Amen.

I have enemies get hit at 200 m with rounds from a mounted 50 cal from a technical - they convulse for a second fall down spring up again in a split second and continue on shooting from the standing position until getting hit with another burst. Unrealsitic, IMHO.

I remember reading through this thread and reading Inimical_rize's posts. They are a rather interesting when it comes to the .50 round. Not saying that what we have is perfectly normal, nor am I saying that you are wrong, but it's an interesting perspective.

[NeuroFunker 11]

does anyone have a link to VBS video, where he shoots a soldier like 10 times at the vest, with m4 and nothing happens, also starts to hump when gets injured to the leg? I guess VBS would have more realistic representation of bulletproof vest.

[armilio 14]

Yes, same thing. Try TPW_Fall, it's a huge game changer. Tweak the other mods as you will but leave Fall enabled.

I marked that, thanks.

[NeuroFunker 11]

also ive noticed, when playing invade&annex after the patch, i was shooting 30mm flaks from kayman and comachee, soldier were dying now lot easier, before patch, they often didnt die from direct 30mm hit, now they do even when flak hits nera them, thats an improvement for me.

[dnk 13]

Yes, after a good bit of testing... UPDATED

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD]Weapon

[/TD]

[TD]Helmet Head[/TD]

[TD]Plate Carrier

[/TD]

[TD]Tac Vest[/TD]

[TD]Unarmored Chest[/TD]

[TD]Arm[/TD]

[TD]Leg[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]7.62 ABR[/TD]

[TD]17/45/100% (2)[/TD]

[TD]29-35% (3-4)[/TD]

[TD]35-37% (3)[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]25%[/TD]

[TD]44-50%[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]6.5 MX[/TD]

[TD]32/100% (2)[/TD]

[TD]10-25% (5-6)[/TD]

[TD]23-30% (4)[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]17-22%[/TD]

[TD]31-36%[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]5.56 SOAR[/TD]

[TD]17/100% (2)[/TD]

[TD]7-15% (5-7)[/TD]

[TD]7-17% (5-7)[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]5-10%[/TD]

[TD]16-19%[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD].45 Vermin[/TD]

[TD]22/100% (2)[/TD]

[TD]10% (7)[/TD]

[TD]12% (5)[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]15-25%[/TD]

[TD]25%[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]9mm Pistol[/TD]

[TD]10/100% (2)[/TD]

[TD]5% (9)[/TD]

[TD]7% (6)[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]10%[/TD]

[TD]5-13%

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

Here are the rough damage ranges for each weapon at close range. Generally, a second head shot always kills, as does a 4th or 5th chest shot. It seems scripted in that way, since even the 9mm can kill in 6 shots. Unprotected headshots are always a kill.

Edited December 13, 2013 by DNK

[Beagle 684]

That 1 shot 1 kill old R6 fashion is outdated. Armor exists and it works.

What is wrong is enemy reaction to getting shot - NONE! This and a limited medical system without unconscious states (you can argue over this) and bleeding (not arguable - this IS missing). Once they get all their shits together this will be beatiful.

Not as good as "advertised" see this official Bundeswehr video, the G36 with AP ammo is able to penetrate a level 4 vest at 75 meters.

the relevent part come at 4.00 minutes.