Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[roshnak 41]

You don't need that. You just need to have an action "diagnose car". Let the player get in and wonder why it doesn't start. And a fuel gauge is very visible (usually) on the dashboard. Of course, most of the armour would need actual interiors for that. Oh yeah, I remember the time when I said I would like to have armour interiors and everybody was bitching at me like "do you only want one tank per side or what?". Good thing we have so many tanks to chose now. Or not.

*sigh*

There is sufficient possibilities to convey that information, it's too bad it isn't actually done. I admit that right now there is too little feedback in terms of fatigue, especially considering that NVG's seem to completely replace all post processing effects like the radial blur and blood; this is something that needs to be fixed, but fixed, not worked around by adding more superficial gauges and indicators.

What you're talking about at this point, though, is a complete redesign of Arma's whole philosophy and style of presenting information to the player. I can understand if that is the game you want to be playing, but you must recognize that it's not actually the game you're playing and that not including a stamina bar in favor of presenting the information through equally unrealistic, although perhaps more immersive means, doesn't mesh with the design philosophy of the Arma 3 that actually exists.

I really feel like a lot of the arguments against having a stamina bar are being made by people who are just against the idea of a HUD at all and are therefore fighting any new additions to the HUD on general principle. I think that if people were to look at this issue in the greater context of the game, the concern over a lack of stamina bar may make more sense. If people are playing a game that tells them exactly how many rounds they have left in their current magazine, has indicators for the damage levels of each part of their vehicles, has indicators for what stance their characters are in, has bars for how full their pockets are, how much ammo is left in each of the magazines in their inventories, and how heavy their loads are, and probably other stuff that I'm forgetting or taking for granted, can players not reasonably be confused when the game provides no feedback for stamina beyond panting and vignetting?

Edited September 5, 2014 by roshnak

[-Coulum- 35]

I really feel like a lot of the arguments against having a stamina bar are being made by people who are just against the idea of a HUD at all and are therefore fighting any new additions to the HUD on general principle. I think that if people were to look at this issue in the greater context of the game, the concern over a lack of stamina bar may make more sense. If people are playing a game that tells them exactly how many rounds they have left in their current magazine, has indicators for the damage levels of each part of their vehicles, has indicators for what stance their characters are in, has bars for how full their pockets are, how much ammo is left in each of the magazines in theirr inventories, and how heavy their loads are, and probably other stuff that I'm forgetting or taking for granted, can players not reasonably be confused when the game provides no feedback for stamina beyond panting and vignetting?

Yes, really a fatigue bar would not be that out of place.

I am unsure if arma really has a "design philosophy"; It kind of seems random, ie. we have stance and ammo indicators, but don't have stamina, wound/health, and oxygen (for underwater) indicators. I don't really think that there is some sort of design goal they are going for.

All in all, something needs to be done to make it clearer how fatigued you are, especially in the earlier stages and final stages of fatigue. Whether it is screen effects, sound effects, stamina bar, fading icon, coloured icon, or some other creative method doesn't matter that much. I do think that a stamina bar does give an unrealistic amount of data, but its definitely not so much as to be considered "not an option" in my opinion. And personally I have never had a problem with HUDs.

[vegeta897 13]

It kind of seems random, ie. we have stance and ammo indicators, but don't have stamina, wound/health, and oxygen (for underwater) indicators. I don't really think that there is some sort of design goal they are going for.

Not really random. BIS have tried to express stamina, wounds, and oxygen with screen effects and sounds. Ammo count can't really be expressed in that way, so it remains in the hud. For stances I guess they felt new players should get a chance to learn how the stances work, before upping the difficulty where it's disabled.

I find the current stamina indications adequate, but I wouldn't freak out if they put a bar in. Though I'd prefer a heartbeat hud indicator if something has to go in the hud. I find that to be less gamey, and actually kind of neat.

[tpw 2315]

I find the current stamina indications adequate, but I wouldn't freak out if they put a bar in. Though I'd prefer a heartbeat hud indicator if something has to go in the hud. I find that to be less gamey, and actually kind of neat.

I put a heart rate monitor into a HUD mod and it works well. Completely rested ~60bpm, completely @#$%ed ~180bpm, after sprinting for 30 sec ~120bpm. It's not outside the realm of possibility that a 2035 soldier would have networked health monitoring, so it doesn't feel too "gamey".

It's always going to be a compromise when trying to present complex multisensorial physiological effects like fatigue and injury using the purely visual/audio cues that a video game is forced to work with. Personally I find the BIS approach to be pretty good.

[roshnak 41]

I find the current stamina indications adequate, but I wouldn't freak out if they put a bar in. Though I'd prefer a heartbeat hud indicator if something has to go in the hud. I find that to be less gamey, and actually kind of neat.

A heart rate monitor is a neat idea, but I don't know how great it would be to have a constantly animating element in the HUD.

I'd also like to say that screen effects and sound effects may be okay for telling you when you are in the extreme, "you don't want to be here" fatigue state, but it can be easy to overdo it. You don't necessarily want screen and sound effects to be going off when you're in the early stages of fatigue, as that sort of thing can get annoying and distracting really fast.

Edited September 5, 2014 by roshnak

[Greenfist 1863]

Although I don't feel I need a stamina indicator, I did make one just to get an idea what it could be like:

Nevermind the action, it's just my target practice playground. So keep your eyes on the top right corner. There's a stamina (not fatigue) bar with 5 colour coded lengths and indicator arrows telling you how fast you are recovering or tiring. (I hadn't had my morning coffee yet so I got them upside down: up means you're getting exhausted.) The bar is hid when your fatigue is below a certain threshold. The arrows don't show up if the stamina is changing only slightly.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Greenfist

[Smurf 12]

I put a heart rate monitor into a HUD mod and it works well. Completely rested ~60bpm, completely @#$%ed ~180bpm, after sprinting for 30 sec ~120bpm. It's not outside the realm of possibility that a 2035 soldier would have networked health monitoring, so it doesn't feel too "gamey".

It's always going to be a compromise when trying to present complex multisensorial physiological effects like fatigue and injury using the purely visual/audio cues that a video game is forced to work with. Personally I find the BIS approach to be pretty good.

Seems good!

http://www.wsgf.org/f/u/imagecache/node-gallery-display/contrib/dr/108/ingame_16x10.jpg (112 kB)

[tpw 2315]

Seems good!

http://www.wsgf.org/f/u/imagecache/node-gallery-display/contrib/dr/108/ingame_16x10.jpg (112 kB)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/481663/pix/hud.png

[bad benson 1733]

now we're talking :D

i also want to jump on the heartbeat monitor band wagon. especially this kind of graph thing..

http://www.wsgf.org/f/u/imagecache/node-gallery-display/contrib/dr/108/ingame_16x10.jpg (112 kB)

there are several games that have this but i can't think of one that actually has a fatigue simulation like arma. they usually just use it because it looks cool. in this case it would make much more sense though. a number would be good too but i see a problem here since you'd need to have it really represent something to not be too gimmicky. and i kind of feel like it's not a good idea since fatigue and heartrate are not the exact same thing. i mean you can measure a heartbeat down to a number but it'S not a percentage like with fatigue in arma.

i think though that just as a design it would look cool and i'd be fine with no number but instead the typical animated heartbeat graph and maybe some colour change or whatever to give some subtle info.

considering these kind of things...

http://allthingsd.com/files/2012/07/AlphaWristWatch1.jpg

...it's not really out of place and would even be a welcomed step towards owning this weird between the seats semi futuristic setting they chose. it fits into the whole HUD helmet, advanced uniform theme BI slightly touched with their model design (OPFOR uniforms).

Edited September 5, 2014 by Bad Benson
spelling/grammar to make it clearer

[Smurf 12]

Imagine link your gear (glassesm watch, GPS, OPFOR alien thing) to your actual HUD - heartbeat, ammo count (or remove this complety), vehicle status (crew\pilot suits with this kind of "bonus"?), compass and so on.

Sorry for the offtopic.

[chortles 263]

there are several games that have this but i can't think of one that actually has a fatigue simulation like arma. they usually just use it because it looks cool. in this case it would make much more sense though. a number would be good too but i see a problem here since you'd need to have it really represent something to not be too gimmicky. and i kind of feel like it's not a good idea since fatigue and heartrate are not the exact same thing.

I'm not sure that A3 actually simulates aerobic/anaerobic -- the current state seems like a generic "fatigue" primarily derived from aerobic activity, with anaerobic activity simply driving up the gauge faster -- or else I'd be onboard with the heartbeat monitor as an anaerobic gauge, and for mods that "accept" the 2035 setting I do like the idea of "HUD helmet"... actually making use of the "creative freedom" granted by a deliberate shying away from "authenticity" (as opposed to "realism").

[bad benson 1733]

Imagine link your gear (glassesm watch, GPS, OPFOR alien thing) to your actual HUD - heartbeat, ammo count (or remove this complety), vehicle status (crew\pilot suits with this kind of "bonus"?), compass and so on.

Sorry for the offtopic.

exactly! imagine all the HUDs having an actual base in the game world instead of just being there. that would be bad ass.

I'm not sure that A3 actually simulates aerobic/anaerobic -- the current state seems like a generic "fatigue" primarily derived from aerobic activity, with anaerobic activity simply driving up the gauge faster -- or else I'd be onboard with the heartbeat monitor as an anaerobic gauge, and for mods that "accept" the 2035 setting I do like the idea of "HUD helmet"... actually making use of the "creative freedom" granted by a deliberate shying away from "authenticity" (as opposed to "realism").

yea i get what you mean about it being only one value. i guess you could just "convert" it into heart rate. that would make that watch kind of thing i posted a nice option indeed. like how about it being part of the watch we already have. you'd need to pull up your watch to check your heart rate. that could help with fears of immersion being broken.

i'm sure there's more watches lke this that combine the base functionality of one with a heart rate monitor. http://www.fitnesstipsforlife.com/wp-content/uploads/ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jU4A4ZesL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

[Bouben 3]

Correct me if I am wrong, but do you guys realize, that BPM rate is only partly connected to the actual fatigue in real life? I can get a high BPM rate in real life even when still having a lot of energy left to do some more exercise. Also, I am able to have a low BPM rate for X hours of hiking and being very tired in the end.

Also, imagine a soldier in a real-life situation having to look on his gadgets to find out how fatigued he is... Isn't that stupid and actually unrealistic? I don't need gadgets to find out how fatigued I am in real-life.

BPM rate gadgets are for doctors and exercises. Not for people to find out if they are fatigued yet.

You all seem to be overthinking it a bit.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Bouben

[tpw 2315]

Correct me if I am wrong, but do you guys realize, that BPM rate is only partly connected to the actual fatigue in real life? I can get a high BPM rate in real life even when still having a lot of energy left to do some more exercise. Also, I am able to have a low BPM rate for X hours of hiking and being very tired in the end.

Also, imagine a soldier in a real-life situation having to look on his gadgets to find out how fatigued he is... Isn't that stupid and actually unrealistic? I don't need gadgets to find out how fatigued I am in real-life.

BPM rate gadgets are for doctors and exercises. Not for people to find out if they are fatigued yet.

You all seem to be overthinking it a bit.

We get it mate. There's nothing wrong with discussing additional ways to represent complex physiology in-game given the limitations of the medium.

[Bouben 3]

We get it mate. There's nothing wrong with discussing additional ways to represent complex physiology in-game given the limitations of the medium.

All cool, buddy. No problem with that. I respect all of you and your opinions.

[tpw 2315]

All cool, buddy. No problem with that. I respect all of you and your opinions.

Thanks Bouben :pc:

[St. Jimmy 272]

BPM gadge could be used as an indicator for how quiclky you get fatigued. Isn't that enough close to reality?

[roshnak 41]

BPM gadge could be used as an indicator for how quiclky you get fatigued. Isn't that enough close to reality?

Not really, but if people think it is then I guess that's all that matters.

[tpw 2315]

Another thing I've been experimenting with is having a slight screen jitter to simulate heartbeat. The rate and intensity of the jitter is related to bpm (which in turn are related to fatigue). 60-90bpm = no/barely perceptible jitter. 90-120bpm = jitter visible if looking through scope. 120-180bpm = jitter visible without scope. This gives a player another rough idea of how fatigued they are without relying on HUD elements.

[bad benson 1733]

Correct me if I am wrong, but do you guys realize, that BPM rate is only partly connected to the actual fatigue in real life? I can get a high BPM rate in real life even when still having a lot of energy left to do some more exercise. Also, I am able to have a low BPM rate for X hours of hiking and being very tired in the end.

Also, imagine a soldier in a real-life situation having to look on his gadgets to find out how fatigued he is... Isn't that stupid and actually unrealistic? I don't need gadgets to find out how fatigued I am in real-life.

BPM rate gadgets are for doctors and exercises. Not for people to find out if they are fatigued yet.

You all seem to be overthinking it a bit.

nothing wrong with a bit of brainstorming and trying to come up with some more interesting designs than a bar. i wouldn't call THAT overthinking. i would rather say that discussing such a little thing page after page while the game has much bigger inconsistencies in terms of the holy frikkin grail of realism, that it's not "us guys" who are overthinking.

but yea.

i agree that it's not realisitic in the way it's connected, as i said btw...but is a bar more realistic? or is a simplified fatigue system like we have it realistic? or are we just talking about a game here while trying to take all the sensitivities of everyone being so violently taken out of their strictly and only realism based immersion (whatever the F that means) by little petty things that aren't even worth talking about?

i mean what are we talking about here at this point? i'm lost. do i really need to mention all the unrealistic HUD elements and parts of the game again or are we all on the same page that this is just a game and we are just trying to find cool ways to make this work for some certain realism neurotics?

i mean geez. it's just a frikkin indicator. one of many...

[roshnak 41]

I could be wrong, but I took Bouben's post to mean that a heart rate indicator either in the HUD or on a watch that you have to push a button to look at isn't any more realistic than a stamina bar (and is perhaps less realistic), and thus wouldn't (or shouldn't) serve to statisfy anyone who is arguing against having a stamina bar for "realism" reasons.

Another thing I've been experimenting with is having a slight screen jitter to simulate heartbeat. The rate and intensity of the jitter is related to bpm (which in turn are related to fatigue). 60-90bpm = no/barely perceptible jitter. 90-120bpm = jitter visible if looking through scope. 120-180bpm = jitter visible without scope. This gives a player another rough idea of how fatigued they are without relying on HUD elements.

Is that not irritating? It sounds like it would get really irritating.

[bad benson 1733]

I could be wrong, but I took Bouben's post to mean that a heart rate indicator either in the HUD or on a watch that you have to push a button to look at isn't any more realistic than a stamina bar (and is perhaps less realistic), and thus wouldn't (or shouldn't) serve to statisfy anyone who is arguing against having a stamina bar for "realism" reasons.

oh i perfectly understood that. it is however less "HUD-y" and by no means less realistic than a bar which gives you percentage. who are we kidding?...

[machineabuse 11]

it is however less "HUD-y"

I lol'd at that :) For discussions sake it's really interesting to have seen all the innovative suggestions for a solution. To be real here, whatever works works if it saves a player undue time learning to inhabit his own virtual body knowing what he should already know.

[Bouben 3]

oh i perfectly understood that. it is however less "HUD-y" and by no means less realistic than a bar which gives you percentage. who are we kidding?...

Mate, the main point is that a BPM rate bar simply does not provide us with the necessary amount of information I have been advocating here. Also, its implementation into the game would make less realistic results than a number-less ShackTac-like fatigue bar. You would have to behave unrealistically in the game as a result because you would have to put out an actual gadget to find information that is otherwise absolutely automatically provided to you by your body IRL.

While BPM rate computer is a gadget that has to be checked by a soldier to find out how fatigued he is, which is something I cannot really accept as natural, rational and intuitive IRL, the fatigue bar is an abstract HUD indictor in the game that does not try to look like a real thing but to provide us with information our brain gets when we get fatigued IRL. It is therefore just an abstract visual element that substitutes our real-life body indicators and everybody should understand it like that.

To me, something abstract and "game-y" on HUD is many times more acceptable than a gadget that tries to make an impression that it is a necessary tool to decide if you are fatigued or not IRL.

In short, nowhere in the near future we are going to get a gaming technology that would allow for a completely HUD-less gameplay and with that in mind we should approach this discussion.

EDIT:

I cannot stress enough that I would in no way wanted a percentage-showing fatigue bar. I am advocating ShackTac-like fatigue bar from the beginning. I totally believe the ShackTac's fatigue bar is an ideal and complete solution. I just want it to be in the vanilla game with an option to turn it on/off. This is the solution for me. It is so easy.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Bouben

[bad benson 1733]

To me, something abstract and "game-y" on HUD is many times more acceptable than a gadget that tries to make an impression that it is a necessary tool to decide if you are fatigued or not IRL.

so the main problem is that you'd have to pull it up? that was just one idea of implementing it. i mean if you really have to justify every little thing with this kind of logic to allow yourself to accept another HUD element, then i guess HUD glasses (that are ingame already) could show things like heart rate. or would that not be abstract enough and thus unbareably illogical for you? :p don't answer i know what you mean. not only soldiers with the right equipment should have that info. still a cool idea to use technology like smurf described :p (you guys are no fun at all...seriously)

i personally don't think in these weird terms of justification and realism since, as has been pointed out several times, it's pretty pointless, if you look at the whole game.

i can totally understand your argument against having to pull something up though. might be impractical at times. i also totally get what you mean about needing the right amount of information at all times since we're talking about your own body. i've said that several times before. i was at no point thinking that the watch kind of thing would be the perfect solution for all nuances of personal sensitivities about HUD or no HUD.

try to see it as a little side tracking towards seeing this as an opportunity to use the whole augmented reality thing more. it's 2035 ingame after all :D i hope that is clear now.

i mean yea a bar is a super simple and practical solution. i agree on that 100%. but you do realise that this discussion is going round and round because some people don't like that idea, yea? forgive me for trying to find compromisses inbetween this constant "nothing at all" vs "nothing but shacktac-like bar".