Shooting thru the trees

[GreyKnight 0]

I'm still not convinced about this shooting through tree trunks stuff. I'm not saying that there aren't weapons that can destroy trees, I'm saying that the projectiles fired by most hand held weapons would lack sufficient momentum / penetration to travel through something as thick and dense as a substantial tree trunk. I've studied the physical sciences quite a bit throughout my education, and it just doesn't seem right that any personal firearm could achieve such a feat. As for that belt fed shotgun, was it firing slugs, or pellets? Pellets wouldn't do sod all to a line of trees except strip the foliage and some of the bark, slugs would do some damage, but it would still have to be a forrest of really thin trees to make much of an impact. It's like that scene in the film Predator where the guy is firing that minigun blindly into the forest and it cuts everything down, those trees were really thin and weak anyway! (yes I know it was fictitious, but you get the idea).

[B@ZOOkA 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Instead of ``normally``, as i would do in real life, hiding in the forest, this place, forest is the most dangerous, right as opposite.<span id='postcolor'>

thats absolutly right.... i always prefere long range battles on open fields in ofp.... there you can win almost every battle against ai...in a forrest its very hard to get a whole incoming squad without being shot or at least being hit.... but i think its very difficult to create a AI that behaves like a human... especially in forrests

[DarkLight 0]

Phew, i almost thought another thread ended up in a "what's the best bullet" discussion...

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (B@ZOOkA @ Aug. 22 2002,00:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Instead of ``normally``, as i would do in real life, hiding in the forest, this place, forest is the most dangerous, right as opposite.<span id='postcolor'>

thats absolutly right.... i always prefere long range battles on open fields in ofp.... there you can win almost every battle against ai...in a forrest its very hard to get a whole incoming squad without being shot or at least being hit.... but i think its very difficult to create a AI that behaves like a human... especially in forrests<span id='postcolor'>

You haven't played Hamburger Hill then, have you

[FSPilot 0]

Here's what I think is going on.

When you're told by your officer to target an enemy, you get a little yellow box that says "Target", right?

Well, what if the enemy AI uses the same principle. Their officer (or a soldier, who calls you out on the radio) spots you and tells one of his troops to engage you. That troop gets a little yellow box to shoot at, which he does, and then kills you.

That's what I think it happening anyway. It's the only thing I can think of where the AI can know your position, but not necessarily see you.

[EBass 0]

While having battles in the forest is hard, running into one being chased by angry bullets makes you safe, pretty invulnerable

[grey 0]

how do u know your arm or something isnt sticking out and thats where the ai shoots you?

in my experience AI love shooting thru bushes and those damn picket fences (god i hate those) but trees are proper cover and do protect you.

[whisperFFW06 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Aug. 22 2002,06:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Here's what I think is going on.

When you're told by your officer to target an enemy, you get a little yellow box that says "Target", right?

Well, what if the enemy AI uses the same principle.  Their officer (or a soldier, who calls you out on the radio) spots you and tells one of his troops to engage you.  That troop gets a little yellow box to shoot at, which he does, and then kills you.

That's what I think it happening anyway.  It's the only thing I can think of where the AI can know your position, but not necessarily see you.<span id='postcolor'>

That is exactly the principle used by AI. Called "knowsAbout" factor

Hiding behind a tree or a bush is useless if you have been already spotted by the ennemy. They will try a guestimate shot through the bush, and if you stay their, your dead. Best method is to move away USING THE COVER of the bush.

If you watch the behaviour of the knowsAbout box, you will see that, when there is no more LOS (and no noise detection) on target, the box will follow an estimated path. It is the same with AI. If, using cover (so that AI do not regain LOS on you), you follow a path different from the AI guess (usually, they guess on a straight path), his knowsAbout factor will decrease slowly, he will try shots where you are not, then move to your estimated position (which is a wrong one) until his knowsAbout factor reaches 0.

As a rule of thumb, when detected, NEVER STAY IN PLACE, move out, staying under cover. Staying in place is asking for a shot or a nade. Same with moving behind concealement under the eyes of the ennemy. You have to get to a place the ennemy do not expect to see you. Doing this while he is watching, and has LOS on you, is useless.

For the shots through trees pb, remember that even if the tree is on most of your screen, your body is much larger than your head, the tango only has to make 3 or 4 steps to the right or the left and shoot. False for resistance trees in southern forrests, which are much larger than other trees.

Whis'

[EBass 0]

Yes I believe this to be the case too. As when someone with a target box goes behind cover the target box predicts where he is exactly the same way the AI predicts who it shoots. So I bet the AI just shoots for the very centre of this box which is not always accurate

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (whisperFFW06 @ Aug. 22 2002,14:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">4--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Aug. 22 2002,064)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Here's what I think is going on.

When you're told by your officer to target an enemy, you get a little yellow box that says "Target", right?

Well, what if the enemy AI uses the same principle.  Their officer (or a soldier, who calls you out on the radio) spots you and tells one of his troops to engage you.  That troop gets a little yellow box to shoot at, which he does, and then kills you.

That's what I think it happening anyway.  It's the only thing I can think of where the AI can know your position, but not necessarily see you.<span id='postcolor'>

That is exactly the principle used by AI. Called "knowsAbout" factor

Hiding behind a tree or a bush is useless if you have been already spotted by the ennemy. They will try a guestimate shot through the bush, and if you stay their, your dead. Best method is to move away USING THE COVER of the bush.

If you watch the behaviour of the knowsAbout box, you will see that, when there is no more LOS (and no noise detection) on target, the box will follow an estimated path. It is the same with AI. If, using cover (so that AI do not regain LOS on you), you follow a path different from the AI guess (usually, they guess on a straight path), his knowsAbout factor will decrease slowly, he will try shots where you are not, then move to your estimated position (which is a wrong one) until his knowsAbout factor reaches 0.

As a rule of thumb, when detected, NEVER STAY IN PLACE, move out, staying under cover. Staying in place is asking for a shot or a nade. Same with moving behind concealement under the eyes of the ennemy. You have to get to a place the ennemy do not expect to see you. Doing this while he is watching, and has LOS on you, is useless.

For the shots through trees pb, remember that even if the tree is on most of your screen, your body is much larger than your head, the tango only has to make 3 or 4 steps to the right or the left and shoot. False for resistance trees in southern forrests, which are much larger than other trees.

Whis'<span id='postcolor'>

That is the best explanation of how the AI works I have ever heard

[Kermit 0]

I second that. Thank you, that explains much.

[eh remraf 0]

I always liked playing "Field Day" (resistance campaign mission) and always managed to get killed by a group of 2 t80 tanks roaming around. Most of the time they're able to shoot through one of the forests from 800m away and kill me and my entire tank squad.

[Guest Scooby]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (GreyKnight @ Aug. 22 2002,01:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm still not convinced about this shooting through tree trunks stuff.  I'm not saying that there aren't weapons that can destroy trees, I'm saying that the projectiles fired by most hand held weapons would lack sufficient momentum / penetration to travel through something as thick and dense as a substantial tree trunk.  I've studied the physical sciences quite a bit throughout my education, and it just doesn't seem right that any personal firearm could achieve such a feat.  As for that belt fed shotgun, was it firing slugs, or pellets?  Pellets wouldn't do sod all to a line of trees except strip the foliage and some of the bark, slugs would do some damage, but it would still have to be a forrest of really thin trees to make much of an impact.  It's like that scene in the film Predator where the guy is firing that minigun blindly into the forest and it cuts everything down, those trees were really thin and weak anyway!  (yes I know it was fictitious, but you get the idea). <span id='postcolor'>

You need fair sized tree trunk to stop assault rifle bullet. While thinner tree trunk wont stop rifle round it has good change of changing bullets trajectory so that person hiding behind the tree might not get hit.

While at assault course I have managed to shoot targets through of fair sized trees.

[whisperFFW06 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (eh remraf @ Aug. 22 2002,23:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I always liked playing "Field Day" (resistance campaign mission) and always managed to get killed by a group of 2 t80 tanks roaming around. Most of the time they're able to shoot through one of the forests from 800m away and kill me and my entire tank squad.<span id='postcolor'>

Yep, tanks are really far killers (but not as much as in reality, you could have been killed from more than 1 or 2 kms in reality ).

On one of the new Resistance multiplayer missions, you can jump in a M2A2. Once you do that, you run for 30 meters in the general direction of the ennemy, and BOOM, your dead. Some T72, hidden in a town 800m southwards, just got you. Need some top teamwork to beat this one.

But they do not shoot through forests, they shoot above .The worst being Shilka, it really lobs volleys above hills

[EBass 0]

Nothing like a forest your'e in being shot up. One of the best things about mp is that AIs only shoot when they have a contact, if you take the flag and run into a wood every tank within half a mile is gonna be pumping heat everywhere. Bloody fantastic