High Command - Problems and Thoughts

[soulis6 24]

First let me just say I'm really enjoying Arma 3, I think it's a huge step up from the first two, and can't wait to see what it evolves into in the future.

I just wanted to post my thoughts on the current High Command system, because I think it's something that has a ton of potential for missions/scenarios. I've been attempting to make a 3vs3 MP mission, with a commander on each team utilizing the High Command module, but unfortunately this functionality has not worked as well as I had hoped. I realize the game is still pretty heavily in development and that's fine, but again just wanted to get this out there.

First things first,

THE GOOD

-High Command is very easily to implement, and worked without any problems on the first try on using it in the editor.

-They will generally get most places you tell them to go, as long as their on foot.

-Some good functionality with the actual squad commands, such as getting them into vehicles, setting the combat mode, speed, etc.

-The SITREP command is neat, and I really like that it shows the % strength of the unit and the bar when you mouse over it on the map.

-The fact that this exists at all is awesome, and it's definitely seen some good improvements over the older Arma 2 version.

PROBLEMS

-First off, the most critical one: Lack of feedback.

There's so much necessary information that is just not provided to the player. Things like squads taking fire, engaged in combat, spotting enemies for the first time, taking losses, being wiped out, none of these are communicated to the Commander. The only way to tell when you've lost a squad under your command, is when their unit icon disappears from your bar suddenly. There's no indication at all that your infantry squad moving around for a flanking action is suddenly under heavy fire and taking losses, unless you happen to be mousing over the unit on the map screen.

Solutions: Basic messages when a situation has changed for a squad under your command would go a long way (ALPHA 1-2: "Under attack, returning fire", COMMAND: "We've lost contact with Bravo 2-1", CHARLIE 3-1: "Reached destination, proceeding to seek and destroy", etc).

A big additional help would be flashing icons on the map, HUD, and command bar, and maybe even show the nice strength meter that you get in the mouseover next to/along side the command bar at the bottom of the screen., and/or something like the normal squad member colored boxes or icons to tell what the state of the group is.

-The 2nd biggest issue I ran into was AI Pathfinding on vehicles.

I'll keep this one short, because i'm sure this has been discussed in other threads, but it's very frustrating when you give a tank a waypoint to move, and they stop halfway, only for you go look at their position and they're stuck on a 2 ft stone wall (which is another issue in itself). More than once I've seen a transport truck with a full squad in it crash into the side of a rock and destroy their vehicle, and the AI just sits in the vehicle, not getting out or doing much of anything. This can be mission destroying when you're watching on your map and seeing motorized squads suddenly stop moving and you have no idea why (also related to problem number one).

Solutions: Again, this has probably been discussed to death in other places, so I can just hope that they improve the vehicle pathfinding, and maybe not let huge tanks get stuck on tiny stone fences and rocks.

-Another problem reveals itself when you try and tell squads to get into/out of vehicles. There's no simple way to tell a squad, even one standing right near you, to get into an empty vehicle. You have to set a way point near it, quickly switch to your map, right click on the waypoint, and navigate to "GET IN" before the squad gets there and the waypoint is erased. This is funny, because basically the closer the squad is to the vehicle you're trying to get them loaded into, the harder it is. And god help you if you have 2-3 empty vehicles and a large squad, because you'll have to move them all around that many times trying to load them all up.

Solutions: Some sort of "GET IN"/"GET OUT" command straight from the command menu would be a huge help here, instead of having to create a waypoint first. Another very useful feedback system would be something telling you how many members of the squad are in a vehicle currently (I once had a squad leader get left out a truck transport for some reason, and when the squad moved off, the command icon stayed with the SL, even though the rest of the whole squad was miles away).

-NATO Icons. I know, some people are going to scream at me for this one, but unless you are already familiar with them, they may as well be a foreign language. With your own squads it's borderline alright, because you can mouseover them on the map to see what they are (hopefully the groups are named in a sane way), but when you're in High Command mode and your squads start spotting enemies, the only indication you have are those NATO icons, and they can't be moused over. I know they're realistic and all, but this isn't a military training program, it's a game, and it would be nice if you could at least have a toggle to set them to be something a little more user friendly.

Solutions: I can't think of one good reason to have these instead of just a stylized unit icon; tank for an armor squad, person for a inf squad, and so on.

SMALL NITPICKS

-The UI when selecting squads is a bit vague, if you're looking at the map, where you have 5+ squads near each other, and you select one with the command bar/hotkeys, the only UI change on the squads is the circle around the unit goes from 'quartered' to full circle. Even a simple color change on the circle/squad icon would solve this. Seems like an easy fix.

-A couple times the command system just stopped responding at all. I was unable to place any new waypoints and couldn't right click on any previous waypoints. I'm sure it's just a bug, and hopefully will be fixed.

-I'd love to see some sort of optional 'spectator' view for units under your command. Something like the camera controls when you've died and are choosing what unit to respawn as. The camera flies over to the unit about 20 feet off the ground, and while you have no control over the camera, it shows you quickly the unit's situation and general position. Sure it's not entirely realistic (although you could argue for future tech and survaillence), but neither is the death/respawn cam, and most importantly it would allow you to quickly check on your squads and see how they're generally doing (something I would image high command would know even with today's technology), and make sure they're not stuck on some tiny rocks :p

-If a player is the squad leader and given a waypoint by the Commander, it's pretty hard to actually see this change, and there's no voice or text notification informing them of their new order. Just a voice or text line would be helpful here.

That's all for now, let me know if anyone else has had experience with the High Command mode, and if they had any successes or failures. Like I said, I think it's a really great and promising feature, and I hope that it gets the development and attention it needs to really flourish. In the mean time i'll keep playing with it and report back if I have anything else to add to this.

[aoshi 1]

You put a lot of thought about it, I played with high command the other day, and I agree with everything you I speak particularly those parts:

-NATO Icons.

and

-The UI when selecting squads is a bit vague, if you're looking at the map, where you h

Nice first post By the way =D

[krycek 349]

I use High Command in A3 like I used it in A2.Basically with old soviet doctrine in mind,sending a whole bunch of troops to the enemy and hoping at the end of the battle they're still alive.

Just like you said getting AI in vehicles with HC is a nightmare so I usually add mech infantry,this way they get in the apcs and move to the position.

I also don't use HC with chopper support because there's a high chance with 3-4 attack choppers to collide between them or getting shot down pretty easily since they don't have an option to keep a distance between them and enemy when engaging.

Still if you're running combined ops with HC,even with mech infantry there's a high chance for some soldiers to be run over by their own vehicles when disembarked or by other armored vehicles that have different waypoints.

I remember one example where I wasn't running HC but I had a smaller combined ops scenario when infantry was supposed to escort a tank on a city street.The tank run over 2 soldiers and wounded 2 more.

Basically for HC to work more efficiently in combined ops we need better AI driving/manoeuvring(to be aware when there are friendlies around them) in towns and better AI pilots that should be able to hold position when engaging.

[xendance 3]

I strongly disagree with the NATO markers stuff. They're perfectly adequate, though a mouse-over on them should give a tool-tip that says what it means. They aren't that much more arbitrary than some illustration of a soldier would be.

[instagoat 133]

It is necessary to add functionality to select which vehicle to get into. Also, Waypoints should only get assigned after the player has set all variables. Right now setting a get in waypoint right next to a unit is impossible because the unit will have reacahed the waypoint before you have changed it to whatever you want it to be.

The nato symbols are fine and can be learned, the problem is that they are incomplete and sometimes display the wrong symbol. (AMV-7s are counted as infantry instead of wheeled reconaissance, for example.) The type of symbol assigned to a Unit should be set by the player, not the other way around, at least for own Units.

Further, we need a high command opposing AI in the style of Rydigiers Hetman, native to the game.

[mamasan8 11]

This is just in general about AI driving, has been like this since OFP IIRC. Put the AI driver in 'combat mode' (7-2) and they will drive all over the place. Doesn't matter what car/tank. They don't stick to the road, they drive backwards, forward, its just chaos. Aware-mode is much better.

[soulis6 24]

I strongly disagree with the NATO markers stuff. They're perfectly adequate, though a mouse-over on them should give a tool-tip that says what it means. They aren't that much more arbitrary than some illustration of a soldier would be.

I don't really want to get stuck too much on the NATO icons, but the fact that a mouse-over is needed to tell the unit type means that something has gone wrong. I don't think You can't really tell me that this:

makes sense and is easier to read at a glance than something like these:

The NATO icons on the map rely on the player already knowing the icons, which in my experience is not the case for most players. The last thing you want when you're trying to navigate this already complex game, is not knowing what a sudden box with a sideways 8 means, and there's not anyone who's going to be confused by a silhouette of a helicopter instead. I just don't see the advantage of the NATO icons, compared to the disadvantage of a large number of players not knowing what many of the icons mean.

Anyways, i'd rather not get hung up on it, as it's lower on on my list of problems as far as High Command goes. Fixing communication and feedback is much more critical IMO.

@mamasan8

That's interesting about the driving while in Combat vs Aware mode, I'll have to try that out and report back!

[Harbinger2456 10]

NATO icons are just something you have learn. Same with other sims like DCS. They're aren't that many of them. Too simmers like me, silhouettes and such on symbols dumb the game down.

[Flaky 10]

A few things, though the majority has been touched on.

- The UI of the waypoints should be modified to include menus of options similar to the way they work for UAVs.

- Things like 90 degree arc of fire like in Ghost Recon could replace the 'watch direction' command. You should be able to go back and change this on the fly.

- There could also be a 'deploy' waypoint type for support weapons.

- I think the transports will obviously be fixed at some point, being able to have one team mount into another support team vehicle for example. The get in/out system could use some refining, perhaps integrating with the combat states (ie. a heli in 'combat' state should sit on the deck with it's engine running, whereas a 'stealth' state heli would turn off it's engine, maybe a 'aware' state would just hover until required.

- I find the UI in the game looks great hovering over the units, but there needs to be a little more transparency on the unselected teams icon, it can be a little unclear who is selected. On the other hand, maybe the waypoints could be a little clearer rather than just a tiny cross and numeral.

- Since the Action menu is going to be present anyway, try to include as many of the options on there as possible (for example, the get in commands etc)

[xendance 3]

I don't really want to get stuck too much on the NATO icons, but the fact that a mouse-over is needed to tell the unit type means that something has gone wrong. I don't think You can't really tell me that this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/APP-6_Infantry_Mechanized_IFV.svg/170px-APP-6_Infantry_Mechanized_IFV.svg.png

makes sense and is easier to read at a glance than something like these:

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u52/Soulis6/BoTB-Icons.png

The NATO icons on the map rely on the player already knowing the icons, which in my experience is not the case for most players. The last thing you want when you're trying to navigate this already complex game, is not knowing what a sudden box with a sideways 8 means, and there's not anyone who's going to be confused by a silhouette of a helicopter instead. I just don't see the advantage of the NATO icons, compared to the disadvantage of a large number of players not knowing what many of the icons mean.

Anyways, i'd rather not get hung up on it, as it's lower on on my list of problems as far as High Command goes. Fixing communication and feedback is much more critical IMO.

@mamasan8

That's interesting about the driving while in Combat vs Aware mode, I'll have to try that out and report back!

I can tell it makes more sense because I was in the finnish defense forces as an NCO. ;)

You're better off asking someone else.

Anyway, something like this is probably modable.

[soulis6 24]

I can tell it makes more sense because I was in the finnish defense forces as an NCO. ;)

Yeah....that was kind of my point, haha.

How many players are going to have that sort of experience and knowledge? My guess would be less than 10-20%.

@Flanky, the watch arc is an awesome idea, would definitely be a great addition.

What would a deploy waypoint type do for support weapons? I can't think of any support weapons off the top of my head that need to be setup in advance to use them.

For engineer or demo groups, a 'Lay Minefield' action would be great too.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

I thought I would try an AI as the high commander but it didn't seem to work - is that possible or does the high commander always have to be a human? Says it's 100% AI compatible on the wiki page (Arma2).

[MANTIA 55]

The pains of getting an infantry squad into a vehicles are horrible! A solution needs to be implemented ASAP!

A SITREP from units in contact is also a great idea!

[shay_gman 272]

I reworked my own new High Command for MCC and got the ideas from this thread so here is what i've done (fastforward to 6:00):

- Reworked the MCC Tactical Commander Console:

- Get a new High Commander experiance with detailed information about the group under your control:

- Group Type

- Group Commander.

- Group size.

- Vehicles in possession of the group

- Group Behaviour.

- Group's color change to indicate a group in combat.

- See all other groups waypoints and markers.

- Take control of any AI groups from the same side as you (can be changed in mission settings or init file).

- Drag and drop selecting tool frame for easy selecting multiple groups or hold Ctrl and selectively pick one by one.

- Use Ctrl + number to create cluster group's shortcut button and press on the number key buttonto select the cluster again - just like old RTS.

- Easily double click on map waypoint creation.

- Create custom waypoints that usually don't work in default HC like - get in vehicle, join, troops unload exc.

- Plan your attack with other players controled groups. The players will only see the waypoints assigned to them by the commander(can be turned off from init or mission settings).

- Mark all friendly groups in map.

- Ruler kit: Get precise artillery fire missions with this as you can measure the distance and direction to the enemies.

- Take control of any other group's leaders helmet or vehicle cameras (support N/V and thermal).

- Take control on any UAV or UGV from your side either with the remote control (control hight, camera, turret and add WP to move around) or actually handle it (BIS Style).

- Removed the virtual UAV since you can now have real ones.

[MANTIA 55]

@Shay_gman

"- Create custom waypoints that usually don't work in default HC like - get in vehicle, join, troops unload exc. " So what your telling me is that I can tell an infantry squad to load up on an APC and they will actually do it?!?!

Oh man if this works I will love you long time!

---------- Post added at 05:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:38 PM ----------

Oh this is only for the MCC Sandbox though correct?

[shay_gman 272]

Yes you can order a squad to go into APC and yes you'll need MCC Sandbox for that.