Weapon sway

[Defunkt 431]

I like the sway. It has always been a pet peeve of mine that mouse-controlled shooters typically don't require anything like the stillness, preparation and concentration that actual, accurate shooting demands in real life. The great thing about fixing this is that the dependent gameplay becomes more realistic also with firefights taking a appropriately longer time to conclude.

[bez 10]

So then why is accuracy at 300m so abysmal? If there's no recoil, flinching or sway, shouldn't everyone hit every shot, so long as they know where the holdoff is?

Whatever the exact dexterous task it, ArmA marksmen have absolute perfection in 90% of shooting skills by default.

And at the end of the day, I hope you realize that if the sway if 'fixed,' the game will be ruined. The player will just bulldoze everything and the AI can go home.

I am not saying to cancel the sway totally, but I do think it's way over the top,

and like gatordev said it is totally random, usually your weapons sway is from breathing (that is why it's minimal when you hold your breath)

so IRL, your gun is actually going more up and down than it is to the sides (it is also but not as much)

When you breath in the barrel will go up, when you breath out the barrel will go down, the side sway is very small.

In ArmA 3 as it is now, it's just random all over the place, it's not realistic at all, sorry.

[progamer 14]

From what I know, sway in real life is very predicable.

[maturin 12]

I am 100% in favor of large, predictable sway.

[bigshot 64]

Been playing/loving BIS games since OPF demo, so I know a little whereof I speak...

I'm sadly finding the infantry experience in A3 more frustrating than fun. The excessive weapon sway means I feel I'm controlling a heavy vehicle rather than a human being. Long range engagements aren't so bad, as you have time to go prone, but urban combat is ruined as you are constantly battling the excessive sway, which merely feels like a phoney device to prevent run-n-gun COD style combat.

While I don't - repeat DO NOT - want superhuman COD style gameplay, I really think the sway needs to be dialed back a lot. Or at least, it should increase more gradually the longer the weapon is held in one position. At the moment, CQB in A3 Beta is less about reflexes and adrenaline and more about staying put and hoping targets appear (authentic perhaps, but boring). When I move into a town I really need the combat to be fast, furious and terrifying, not a drawn-out game of hide-and-seek.

O.T.: Love Altis though - unbelievably beautiful, especially at magic hour :icon_hug:

^THIS^...I've asked on Day 1 of alpha for them to lower the sway...I know many who have left Arma3 behind and refuse to play because of this (as well as the waaay over-done fatigue). Realistic or not makes no difference if people find these things annoying, which the majority do. A3 "looks" simply wonderful but truth be told now that A2 is actually more fun to play at this point.

[Bouben 3]

...usually your weapons sway is from breathing (that is why it's minimal when you hold your breath)

so IRL, your gun is actually going more up and down than it is to the sides (it is also but not as much)

No, your hands shake too (depending on muscle fatigue, psychical condition and so on).

[byku 13]

Just to say: I also like the sway, battles are longer a bit thx to that.

[bez 10]

No, your hands shake too (depending on muscle fatigue, psychical condition and so on).

Yes, but I am talking on an idle situation where you are not tired and you are laying rested with you weapon. sure your hands shake, but not like ArmA 3 is doing it.

[gatordev 219]

So then why is accuracy at 300m so abysmal? If there's no recoil, flinching or sway, shouldn't everyone hit every shot, so long as they know where the holdoff is?

Whatever the exact dexterous task it, ArmA marksmen have absolute perfection in 90% of shooting skills by default.

And at the end of the day, I hope you realize that if the sway if 'fixed,' the game will be ruined. The player will just bulldoze everything and the AI can go home.

The issue isn't hampering the player, then. The "solution" should be to make the AI affected by the same sway. Assuming a "Mil Sim," sway for the player, by itself, isn't the answer. Make the AI have the same inaccuracies (default) or reduce the sway for the player.

I like the sway. It has always been a pet peeve of mine that mouse-controlled shooters typically don't require anything like the stillness, preparation and concentration that actual, accurate shooting demands in real life.

You can be be quick and agile (with practice) and still maintain accuracy. To say you have to be "still" to maintain accuracy isn't correct. It certainly helps, but you can be prone, still, with every piece of the rifle connected with the Earth, and still be inaccurate due to improper shooting discipline. If you've done nothing but bench/prone shooting, it might seem like it's not possible being "unsupported," but with some practice, it's not that big a deal. Applying the (basic) fundamentals and being anything other than "still" can still result in decent hits out to 200m, even with an AK. I've seen it first hand.

I am 100% in favor of large, predictable sway.

Predictable being the key. If the sway was the same but predictable, I could live with it. I still think it would be overdone, but at least it's more inline with reality.

[derringer 10]

I'm not sure if its the sway either but aiming is way too hard in my opnion, I'm not the best shooter but i have a really hard time when shooting unless i'm prone, sometimes even crouching isn't enough especially comparing A2.

I have no experience with weapons but i don't think that on 100-300m the only good position to shoot is being prone, at least in A2 i could hit people when crouching at these distances.

Are you shooting around 300m all the time. Weapon zeroing seems to default to 300m, so if you are in an urban area a lot of times guys are less than 300m. This means you either change your zeroing (if the scope/iron sights allow) or you compensate your aim or you will shoot over their head.

[Lucasmnunesk 2]

Are you shooting around 300m all the time. Weapon zeroing seems to default to 300m, so if you are in an urban area a lot of times guys are less than 300m. This means you either change your zeroing (if the scope/iron sights allow) or you compensate your aim or you will shoot over their head.

Thanks for the explanation but i knew about the zeroing, i did some experimental shoots just dropped a squad and tried to get them, as people stated it isn't frustrating against players, at least for me, the hard aim makes firefights even more intense but i think people suggestions here would work great too

What make the game frustrating on firefights against AI, is the inconsistency of their aiming skills in lower levels, on elite with enemies set to 0.7 on skill i was a sniper on a hill, 800m from the enemy squad, prone, i shot them so they would return fire and generally they would miss but hitting pretty close and still some shots hit me pretty easy using only ACOs, i wasn't hiding and was just testing their skills but i was laying prone 800m from them, i believe it isn't easy to get a hit with the ACO.

Maybe the frustration is more of an AI issue, as they don't get suppressed, ambushes don't have that big surprise impact and their aiming still could get some work.

From what i've read here i believe like a more predictable sway would be cool but i'm not sure too, would give a try before having any opinion on what to do.

I'm not sure if its related with the sway but sometimes i shoot and the recoil doesn't seems to kick in, so i shoot and i get no recoil. I've no idea if it could be the sway moving the weapon down and negating all the recoil effect. Has anyone ever had this issue?

[machoman121 10]

Been playing/loving BIS games since OPF demo, so I know a little whereof I speak...

I'm sadly finding the infantry experience in A3 more frustrating than fun. The excessive weapon sway means I feel I'm controlling a heavy vehicle rather than a human being. Long range engagements aren't so bad, as you have time to go prone, but urban combat is ruined as you are constantly battling the excessive sway, which merely feels like a phoney device to prevent run-n-gun COD style combat.

While I don't - repeat DO NOT - want superhuman COD style gameplay, I really think the sway needs to be dialed back a lot. Or at least, it should increase more gradually the longer the weapon is held in one position. At the moment, CQB in A3 Beta is less about reflexes and adrenaline and more about staying put and hoping targets appear (authentic perhaps, but boring). When I move into a town I really need the combat to be fast, furious and terrifying, not a drawn-out game of hide-and-seek.

O.T.: Love Altis though - unbelievably beautiful, especially at magic hour :icon_hug:

I totally agree that A3's weapons sway is terrible - it makes the game so hard to play and frustrating - while i'm no weapons expert but even in real life i think a weapson won't sway like that - that's why the popular feedback regarding Arma is the word clunky and it's because of that damn sway thing. I really wanted to make Arma 3 my primary go to war/military game but i'm not sure if that's gonna come true.....i thought hard about what's preventing me to truly enjoy Arma3 and it's this damn weapons sway- i'm getting motion sickness playing it. And my wrist hurts from trying to minimise the sway. Pull your scope up and it's "ahoy sailor perfect storm style" - Is there any settings i can use to remove it? U know wat would make it perfect - BF shooting style with ARMA potential - now that's something i can get into. Right now Arma 3 is Clumsy and Clunky!!!And tat's coming from someone who is trying very hard to like it - i've even made a conscious decision not to play BF for now as BF3 (not yet BF4) is so enjoyable for what it is - going back to Arma might be a let-down (because of the controls) - just wanted to get myself into the Arma mode properly.

Edited November 9, 2013 by machoman121

[progamer 14]

Why don't we try to replicate VBS2's weapon sway? Obviously it must be realistic in the way VBS2 has it or militaries would be upset.

Rather than some stupid sway for "gameplay" that annoys many people, why not use VBS2's sway as a model for how sway should be in Arma 3?

---------- Post added at 02:24 ---------- Previous post was at 02:15 ----------

Vote for weapon sway like VBS2: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=15943

"In VBS2 weapon aim just goes up and down as if you were breathing, then whether you are aiming with the RMB or not you hold RMB and the soldier holds breath for a few seconds, after they pass and you still hold RMB he barely manages to hold the aim and then lets the breath go. In VBS2 firefights go longer because of this and it also requires more from player than just aim and shoot. Really adds certain "oomph" to shooting. Not mentioning that it doesn't make a sniper that "casually lie down and play firing range" kind of guy anymore."

Edited November 9, 2013 by ProGamer

[MavericK96 0]

Is there a particular example/video of that for those of us who have never played VBS2?

[progamer 14]

Is there a particular example/video of that for those of us who have never played VBS2?

I will do my best to find one, but if anyone else reading knows of one then please post it.

---------- Post added at 02:39 ---------- Previous post was at 02:31 ----------

You can see an example of weapon sway in this video but this might not be how VBS2 currently does it. If someone could confirm this is how VBS2 does it currently, that would be nice.

---------- Post added at 02:42 ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 ----------

This video shows it too and was made this year:

---------- Post added at 02:45 ---------- Previous post was at 02:42 ----------

Old VSB2 sniper shooting:

As you can see, all the videos have realistic weapon sway.

---------- Post added at 02:59 ---------- Previous post was at 02:45 ----------

[VBS3 10]

- Wind Drift in the Arma OA(ACE mod)
Please vote on this ticket if it bothers you: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=11989

[mjolnir66 48]

I don't see what everybodies problem is with the sway? There is none when you are prone, and when you are crouching and standing, its significantly less then I've ever experienced in real life. There's a reason why almost all infantry combat takes place at sub 300m in real life, and it because shooting people is really hard. Take for example, the current British Army rifle marksmanship test. At 400m, you only need to get 3 hits from 9 shots, and that's from prone. And the most commonly failed range is 200m because there is shooting from kneeling and standing. In game, if you hold your breath, its entirely possible to hit targets at 200m, the sway drops enough. Add onto that, that this is not range shooting, but battlefield shooting and the amount of sway is entirely reasonable.

[maturin 12]

The sway is too much, because it has to compensate for imperfect trigger pulls and sight alignment that will affect accuracy in real life, yet can't be modeled in a game.

If you pedantically make the sway exactly like real life, the gameplay will become wildly unreal because of other factors that aren't simulated.

[CaptainObvious 95]

If you pedantically make the sway exactly like real life, the gameplay will become wildly unreal because of other factors that aren't simulated.

This, there's a certain level of "bonding" missing between the player and his weapon in games, the sway in VBS videos above doesn't look at all like it is in real life if you ask me, not that Arma's does either, but Arma's sway is far nicer to play with, after all it's a game which is supposed to entertain people.

[galzohar 31]

I don't see what everybodies problem is with the sway? There is none when you are prone, and when you are crouching and standing, its significantly less then I've ever experienced in real life.

I'll second that.

Though as for the actual average engagement ranges IRL, IMO it's more because of how terrain is IRL compared to in-game. But difficulty of actually shooting people plays a part too.

In any case, this is a big improvement over ArmA 2.

[MavericK96 0]

I will do my best to find one, but if anyone else reading knows of one then please post it.

Thanks for the videos. That does indeed seem more realistic...a gentle sway on the Y axis based on your breathing. In ArmA 3 it feels too exaggerated on the X axis.

On a side note...that realistic body armor and damage is awesome.

[progamer 14]

Thanks for the videos. That does indeed seem more realistic...a gentle sway on the Y axis based on your breathing. In ArmA 3 it feels too exaggerated on the X axis.

On a side note...that realistic body armor and damage is awesome.

Yea, hopefully we get that realistic body armor and damage down the line.

The sway is so much better in VBS2, hopefully we get similar sway soon!

[CaptainObvious 95]

The sway is so much better in VBS2, hopefully we get similar sway soon!

What aspects of the sway in VBS2 you mean? All of it or just the more predictable up and down movement of the weapon when aiming thru sights?

[progamer 14]

What aspects of the sway in VBS2 you mean? All of it or just the more predictable up and down movement of the weapon when aiming thru sights?

All of it, because your weapon does not act like your standing on a rocking ship. It feels like your weapon is being influenced by realistic factors rather than unrealistic artificail factors.

[-Coulum- 35]

Honestly I think the current sway does its job fine and I don't think VBS sway is neccesary. In vbs the sway is more predictable but has a much longer path of movement. Arma 3's is less predictable (random swings) but it has a smaller range of motion. I like arma 3's because it makes shots not only go high and low but also left and right if you don't take the time to shoot properly. I like VBS's because it actually has aoticeable effect even when prone. Overall I think that what arma 3 has is good enough though. It forces you to take a second to get your reticule somwhat on target and hold breath/focus before firing when making precise shots.

Here's VBS2 sway - it far larger than arma 3's

(11:25 - 11:50)

I have played JCOVE and obviously arma 3 and I would say that in the end the results are the same. You need to hold breath to get an accurate shot off at range. I see no need to change arma 3's.