AH-64D Apache Longbow for ArmA2 by Nodunit and Franze

[nodunit 397]

Sorry if these questions were already answered, 20 pages is a lot of time to read through... Curious if you plan on doing any A2CU flight suit skins for your pack? And if you still have any intentions on doing some H-60s down the line?

Thanks again for the fun addon!

We're not sure what to do on pilots yet. I personally would like to have some form of custom pilot with IHADSS as opposed to the standard Arma pilot, they just don't look the same without those big monocle helmets. As for the other helicopters ehh, I'd rather not say yes we'll make this or no we won't make that because anything is possible and its more fun to be a surprise.

Great addon and good support.

A question: Aiming a tank is it real? I always find arma2 too easy to find a tank/vehicle, just press a button and then it pops up, another button (or more here) and it gets killed. Hope this addon finds his way to arma3 someday (and beside tanks that have more defensive stuff then just smoke) :D

It's tricky to say when it comes to radars, I won't pretend I'm an expert at them so you'll have to wait for Franze's comment on that.

Generally speaking if you can get eyes on then you can kill it be it wire guided or laser designated, and you would need a line of sight one way or another to do that without some sort of radar tied with missile aid.

The biggest annoyance I have with Arma 2 is that every aircraft is treated as though it has a radar when in fact as far as Arma 2 core goes the only one that might is the KA-52. The cobra doesn't have it, the transport helicopters sure as hell don't have it, they only have air survivability equipment. And none of them should EVER be able to track infantry.

If you haven't yet, I highly recommend you play a few missions of Tarnished gold. The first one is especially a doozy and if you use FCR mentality you will get toasted.

By the way if any of you folks are interested, SwissMaverick on youtube will be hosting a sort of "Developer hangout" on teamspeak, both Franze and I will be there. He'll be taking questions from twitch (which I assume will be streaming) http://de.twitch.tv/swissmaverick or twitter https://twitter.com/SwissMAVERICK and the date will be Sept 15 at 8pm GMT/UTC +2, 2pm CST and you'll have to do the math for other timezones.

If you have any questions about...whatever, feel free to ask.

Edited September 11, 2013 by NodUnit

[metralla 19]

Just checking to make sure I understand you, are you saying that the armor of the helicopter feels a bit weak because it can take damage from tanks machine gun fire or?

exact, ah64 armor should be much harder and withstand machinegun Hellfire impacts of 7.62. In this version of ah64 as received machine gun fire from tanks begins to systems failures.

[nodunit 397]

exact, ah64 armor should be much harder and withstand machinegun Hellfire impacts of 7.62. In this version of ah64 as received machine gun fire from tanks begins to systems failures.

I'll talk to Franze about it but (as far as I know) most of the black boxes are stored in the avionics bays on the side of the aircraft, these are made of lightweight aluminium (oh spellcheck you silly), the "walls" of which are very thin http://offload.goarmy.com/content/dam/goarmy/careers/mechanics/mos-aviation-mechanic.jpg (you can see the thickness via the bay door)

The most armored parts of the apache fuselage are the belly which contain ballistic foam, resin and kevlar lining along with the the cockpits separating glass, armored seats, canopy glass and of course rotors. PARTS of it are rated to take 12.7, and 23, not all of it.

It's no flying tank by any means, remember this aircraft was originally conceived with the idea of hiding in the landscape and picking off soviet tanks from distance.

Typically you'll either be using nap of earth if your terrain offers enough protection..or if that is not viable, flying high and at a stand off range, trying to stay out of effective range of enemy weaponry, remember you have the superior optics and your 30mm will be far more effective at range than any small arms.

Edited September 11, 2013 by NodUnit

[ricnunes 0]

Maybe I'm a bit nitpicking but the Pin Drop mission in the Tarnished Gold campaign is bit on the impossible side:

-> IMO, it doesn't make any sense that the Helicopter that you're supposed to escort after dropping the SpecOps team instead of turning to the fastest, nearest and safest route to get out from the hostile area (which could be something like turning WEST and then SOUTH) the helicopter that you're supposed to escort does exactly the opposite (turns north and east) and goes even deeper inside the enemy hostile area. Don't get me wrong but even the dumbest mission planning officers wouldn't plan nothing like this! Together with this you have to face enemy Ka-52s, Su-24 and Tunguskas, this IMO makes this mission: Mission Impossible!

IMO and as a request and feedback, I think the UH-60 should turn home thru a fastest, nearest and safest (Southwest outbound route) or even not having the exaggeration of Russian units (specially the aerial units).

[ESheppard 10]

With the exception of parts specifically armored to keep the aircraft in the air (Gearboxes, driveshafts, and as Nodunit pointed out, the aircraft's underbelly and crew compartments) most of the helicopter's skin is made of thin aluminum. In Ed Macy's book 'Hellfire', he says that this was because it'd allow rounds that hit the aircraft to pass through without tearing big holes in it.

[franze 196]

Great addon and good support.

A question: Aiming a tank is it real? I always find arma2 too easy to find a tank/vehicle, just press a button and then it pops up, another button (or more here) and it gets killed. Hope this addon finds his way to arma3 someday (and beside tanks that have more defensive stuff then just smoke) :D

For the most part, acquisition is still pretty much tab-lock to acquire a target; however, the only true fire and forget missiles in your arsenal are AGM-114L and FIM-92. Even then, both missiles still need a line of sight to the target before they can acquire. All other AGM-114 types require a constant line of sight to hit the target (when self designating). For a pure FCR acquisition your FCR has to be on and it has to have a LOS to the target before you can engage it.

exact, ah64 armor should be much harder and withstand machinegun Hellfire impacts of 7.62. In this version of ah64 as received machine gun fire from tanks begins to systems failures.

Not all components on the Apache are armored against weapon strikes; only key areas are armored against 12.7mm and 23mm rounds. Sensors, avionics, etc. are not built to withstand much/any enemy fire hence a few 7.62mm hits can take them out. The goal was aircraft and crew survivability.

Maybe I'm a bit nitpicking but the Pin Drop mission in the Tarnished Gold campaign is bit on the impossible side:

-> IMO, it doesn't make any sense that the Helicopter that you're supposed to escort after dropping the SpecOps team instead of turning to the fastest, nearest and safest route to get out from the hostile area (which could be something like turning WEST and then SOUTH) the helicopter that you're supposed to escort does exactly the opposite (turns north and east) and goes even deeper inside the enemy hostile area. Don't get me wrong but even the dumbest mission planning officers wouldn't plan nothing like this! Together with this you have to face enemy Ka-52s, Su-24 and Tunguskas, this IMO makes this mission: Mission Impossible!

IMO and as a request and feedback, I think the UH-60 should turn home thru a fastest, nearest and safest (Southwest outbound route) or even not having the exaggeration of Russian units (specially the aerial units).

Pin Drop is the second hardest mission in the entire campaign. Dusk Knight is a bit of a hot head (he once downed a Ka-52 with the miniguns) and tends to get away with more than he actually would. That being said, the number one largest mistake a mission planner can make is using the same routes for infil and exfil. This is one of the major reasons for the F-117 shoot-down during Allied Force; aircraft were flying the same infil and exfil routes and as such became predictable. The route northeast of the airfield has lots of terrain features that can mask the helicopters and enable a quick exit while being shielded from AA fire from the airfield.

More in depth:

You need to keep low and fast during your initial approach. You will eventually come across the Zu-23 Ural and a technical; kill these quickly with your gun and then turn on your RF jammer immediately afterward. Come to a sudden stop, bob up and acquire the north end SA-19, sending a missile his way. You should position the south SA-19 between the hill to the west of the north SA-19 and engage the jets and the remaining SA-19 with HELLFIRE from a distance. The Ka-52s may or may not go after you, but as their distance closes in on the landing zone you should turn on your IR jammers and use gun fire to keep the Ka-52s at bay. When Dusk Knight has successfully dropped off the ground team, follow him as close as you can and engage the technicals he flies over in the east. It shouldn't take much to rip them apart. From there Dusk Knight should be home free and the Ka-52s will likely have lost sight of you. You can either disengage with Dusk Knight and return to base, or turn around and get into a gun/rocket fight with the Ka-52s.

If you choose to get in a fight with the Ka-52s, beware that they are equipped with GSh-23 gunpods and Igla missiles; you will need to speed quickly through their starboard arc to avoid taking fire from their cannons. From there you can spin around and shoot them in the rear.

[ESheppard 10]

-snip, double post, sorry!-

[ricnunes 0]

That being said, the number one largest mistake a mission planner can make is using the same routes for infil and exfil. This is one of the major reasons for the F-117 shoot-down during Allied Force; aircraft were flying the same infil and exfil routes and as such became predictable. The route northeast of the airfield has lots of terrain features that can mask the helicopters and enable a quick exit while being shielded from AA fire from the airfield.

I'm not saying that the infil and exfil routes should be the same, but the exfil route should never involve passing into the "heart" of the enemy zone. And the current exfil route doesn't give you or the UH-60 any chance of escaping enemy fire unless you know, after playing this mission too many, many times what enemies can engage you during exfil and for some miracle being able to destroy them before they destroy you or the UH-60M.

Being said that and since the infil route is from the south the exfil route could go west (instead going north and then east like the current exfil route or south like the infil route). Also not being able to choose our weaponry in this mission (there's no Ammo truck) and therefore not having access to equip Stinger Missiles to deal with lots of enemy air threats (Ka-52s and Su-34s) and also not being able to mount AGM-114L (radar guided Hellfires) to deal with very dangerous threats such as the SA-19, makes this mission very exaggerated from a difficulty point of view.

Please don't get me wrong, and afterall this is IMO the best addon ever made for ArmA2 so far, but missions like this makes the campaign very, very frustrating. I understand that there's the need for some difficulty, but making missions so difficult than only one kind of tactic will work doesn't combine which such a great and realistic addon -> The idea behind this mission (Pin Drop) is itself great but again it's too exaggerated!

[franze 196]

Treading into spoiler territory again:

If you're facing the fixed wing aircraft in the air, things have gone seriously wrong. The only aerial threat you should be facing are the Ka-52s and they are equipped with Iglas which can be evaded easily with range and the IR jammer. The Su-34s should be taken out while they're still on the ground.

If you go west, you're actually going deeper into Russian territory, and you have to gain altitude to fly over the hills - which leaves you wide open to the SA-19s at the airfield. Going south and then east would work out except that you'd have to stay much closer to the ground in order to avoid the southernmost SA-19, in addition to guerrilla MANPADS in the area.

I do understand it's VERY difficult and quite far from realistic, but so is the entire campaign. I wanted to make sure at least one mission was very difficult and that turned out to be Pin Drop.

[ESheppard 10]

I was at work when I logged into this thread (out of boredom) and afterward, to satisfy my curiosity, ran searches to find the technical specifications of Russian Anti-Air missiles, as well as the model of RF jammer used on the Apache.

I expect a call from the NSA any day now.

---------- Post added at 02:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 AM ----------

Apparently the model of Tunguska that's in ArmA 2 can detect aircraft flying as low as 15m from 18 kilometers away, track from 15, and engage at 12. (In the real world, anyway)

[ricnunes 0]

I do understand it's VERY difficult and quite far from realistic, but so is the entire campaign. I wanted to make sure at least one mission was very difficult and that turned out to be Pin Drop.

Well according to BIS universe regarding Chernarus, West is still Chernarus - Actually the map that is called Chernarus is just one province of the whole country of Chernarus (located the most northeastern part of Chernarus where Ethnic Russians and Pro-communist guerrilla have considerable support). Russia should be located North and not West.

Anyway, I can understand your idea behind this mission but I still think that we should at least have an Ammo Truck so that we could at least equip Stinger missiles since it's almost impossible to engage those Ka-52s with guns plus defending ourselves and the UH-60 at the same time!

The Radar Hellfire (AGM-114L) should IMO be included in the mission (with the ammo truck) because there's so many targets to engage including those nasty Tunguskas that engaging with laser Hellfires one target at a time while exposing ourselves is again an almost impossible mission.

So my new request regarding this mission: Add an Ammo truck with Stingers and/or preferably Radar Hellfires as well.

[HellcatF6F 10]

Well according to BIS universe regarding Chernarus, West is still Chernarus - Actually the map that is called Chernarus is just one province of the whole country of Chernarus (located the most northeastern part of Chernarus where Ethnic Russians and Pro-communist guerrilla have considerable support). Russia should be located North and not West.

Anyway, I can understand your idea behind this mission but I still think that we should at least have an Ammo Truck so that we could at least equip Stinger missiles since it's almost impossible to engage those Ka-52s with guns plus defending ourselves and the UH-60 at the same time!

The Radar Hellfire (AGM-114L) should IMO be included in the mission (with the ammo truck) because there's so many targets to engage including those nasty Tunguskas that engaging with laser Hellfires one target at a time while exposing ourselves is again an almost impossible mission.

So my new request regarding this mission: Add an Ammo truck with Stingers and/or preferably Radar Hellfires as well.

My strategy for Pin Drop (though you can read a more thorough version in the strategy guide)

Fly low and keep as far ahead of Dusk Knight as possible, using HELLFIREs on the technicals. The nearest (northern) tunguska was my biggest problem in that mission. By using LOAL-DIR mode, bobbing up to lock and launch, then down, then back up against to re-acquire him just before the missile's impact, and using jammers and plenty of chaff, you maximize your chances of destroying him and his more distant brother before they destroy you. The next largest threat are the Su-34s, but only if you let them get into the air. On the ground, they are just begging for HELLFIREs :) I used 50-round gun bursts to destroy the Ka-52s as I engaged them as soon as I detected them (this usually happens when they are 1 to 2 kilometers distant), trusting in IR jammers to keep their missiles off of me, then hit the remaining technical (and his MANPADS friend) using rockets.

The M230 can destroy aircraft. Usually no more than a few hits versus BI made aircraft. The gun is not a sniper rifle and muzzle energy diminishes at range, so use larger bursts (B key) on more distant targets. Stingers would ruin much of the mission's suspense. So would Longbow HELLFIREs.

Edited September 13, 2013 by HellcatF6F

[franze 196]

If I may, can you tell me what strategy you're using in the mission? We've had a lot of debates over the difficulty for this mission and the strategies for it; I'm willing to entertain changing it, but I fear doing so may remove the factors that make the mission worth it.

One of the key things we like about it is the sense of urgency, the stripping down of your mythical 'helicopter-god' feeling that the previous mission(s) may have given you. It's not a casual 'oh another escort mission', but a real challenge that will tax you to your limits. You find yourself sucked in and giving it all you've got, hoping that everything goes the way it should. Then when you finally beat it, you get a real sense of accomplishment - you've finally done something real and tangible.

We don't want to lose those elements unless we have to.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Franze

[ricnunes 0]

Finally I was able to pass this mission but only because of a matter of pure luck which I confirmed by opening this mission with the editor. What happened (and also includes some tactics that I previously used in other attempts) are:

Honestly I'm even afraid of telling you how I passed this mission since it was a bit of an "exploit" and honestly I'm afraid that you "repair" this exploit and make this mission even more impossible than it is now!

I managed to complete this mission because I destroyed the Pickup with the heavy machine gun (near the UH-60 LZ) with an hellfire and in the process the Truck with ZU-23 was only disabled (and not destroyed) possibly by the Hellfire explosion that destroyed the pickup, and with this (and I confirmed after opening the mission with the editor) I noticed that there is a trigger when the Truck with ZU-23 is destroyed that those two Ka-52s will take off and hunt you and the UH-60. Since the Truck with ZU-23 was only disabled, all I needed to do was to keep flying low so that I wouldn't be detected by the Russians and thus preventing the Ka-52s and Su-34s from taking off.

So I kept flying low with the UH-60M (actually ahead of the UH-60) then I destroyed the insurgent camp located East from the Russian zone and the UH-60 was able to successfully land at Krasnovstav.

Regarding the tactics used: I used several tactics ranging from keeping low with the helicopter and engaging the enemy after being spotted because I had to destroy both the Truck with ZU-23 and the Pickup, up to engaging enemy targets from afar.

If I keep low with the UH-60M and engage the enemy after destroying both the Truck with ZU-23 and the Pickup up and I engage the Tunguskas the Ka-52s will destroy the UH-60M (this one seems to fly at "Warp" speeds which makes the task of escorting it almost impossible). If I engage one Ka-52 the other will either engage and destroy me or the UH-60M, or if I engage the other Ka-52 the same thing will happen all over again. Or also if I try to engage any or both of the KA-52s as fast and soon as I can, this means that I must put my safety in jeopardy, such as flying higher and faster and then the Tunguskas will tear me apart! (that's why I think that the player's Apache should have Stingers available)

Or if I decide to engage from afar and if I destroy the Tunguskas or KA-52s or Su-34s first than the Truck with ZU-23 and the Pickup up will destroy the UH-60M -> Specially because the UH-60M moves at "warp" speed independently where you are (if there was a way to halt and slow down the UH-60M movement, things would be quite different tho). If I destroy the Truck with ZU-23 and the Pickup up first (from afar) than the KA-52s will destroy the UH-60M even because the UH-60M moves at "warp" speed and there's no way to get in time to save the UH-60M from being shot down by the KA-52s (again the Stingers could help a lot here).

So no matter what you do you're basically "screwed", if it's not by one thing/factor is because of another and so on...

I do believe that there's probably ONE way to ending this mission successfully (like you said and posted) but honestly what I hate most when playing PC wargames is missions that gives you only ONE WAY to accomplish it. This IMO should never happen in ANY ArmA mission since what's sets ArmA apart from lets say Call of Duty is the ability to be able to end missions in several different ways - Apparently this doesn't happen with this mission (except for a lucky "exploit" that I experienced).

[franze 196]

We'll entertain some changes to the mission, but no guarantees. Just wait til you get to Hallowed Ground; then I suspect you will hate us even more. :)

[kimi_uy 135]

We'll entertain some changes to the mission, but no guarantees. Just wait til you get to Hallowed Ground; then I suspect you will hate us even more. :)

I'm at this mission. Had no trouble in Pin Drop. The only thing i didn't like is the behaviour of the blackhawk pilots regarding their rush to take off and get out of sight before the APU is even on. But other than that it's the best aerial campaign in arma 2.

[nodunit 397]

This is just a small tease for the upcoming update.

Franze is working on 1.2 which adresses some problems in arma 2 and TKOH but curiously enough also seems to have addressed many of the problems that porting the bird to Arma 3 had.

The constant error string is gone, missiles not functioning correctly and a bit more. It now plays almost as though it were in arma 2.

Edited September 15, 2013 by NodUnit

[gatordev 219]

It now plays almost as though it were in arma 2.

A small nit-pick...you shouldn't run the PCLs up and THEN disengage the rotor brake. Rotorbrake off, then PCLs to FLY. I believe LB2 had it incorrect (though it's been forever since I've played that game...like 1999).

Probably not doing a bad job if that's what I have to complain about.

[franze 196]

A small nit-pick...you shouldn't run the PCLs up and THEN disengage the rotor brake. Rotorbrake off, then PCLs to FLY. I believe LB2 had it incorrect (though it's been forever since I've played that game...like 1999).

Probably not doing a bad job if that's what I have to complain about.

We'll look into making that change in the next update. The startup process didn't get as much refinement so it's in a constant state of flux. For now v1.2 is available here.

Changes:

v1.2 -

- Changed weapon and ammo class inheritance.

- Modified missile guidance scripting.

- Fixed cockpit glass invulnerability.

- Fixed CPG-Pilot multiplayer issue with gun/pylons.

- Fixed shadow issues.

- Fixed skin selection areas.

- Fixed TADS stow for CPG.

Missile guidance error/bugs should be fixed when using OA betas, but this is not 100% confirmed yet. Recommended version remains 1.62.

[ataribaby 54]

Noticed really small issue, FPM on IHADDS is different color (brighter) and gets corrected when you touch IHADDS inetensity knob. Nothing major, just looks bit odd.

[nodunit 397]

Will check and fix. I've been wanting to unify the digital colors but hadn't gotten around to it till just recently..funny how you miss things right in front of you all the time.

[alleycat 28]

Will this be released for arma3?

[nodunit 397]

Will this be released for arma3?

Officially no but by backwards compatibility nature yes

Drop the _us and controls file into your C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Arma 3\Addons folder and then spawn the helicopter as Empty so the game won't chew you out for missing pilots.

Bet you guys can't beat this "Oh shi-" moment

Also just an update since its a new page, we'll be doing a little developer hangout live stream questions thingy here http://de.twitch.tv/swissmaverick (I haven't slept so this should be fun) or you can submit questions here https://twitter.com/SwissMAVERICK It starts 2pm CST, UTC/GMT+2 and you'll have to do the math for other timezones.

Not really expecting anyone to attend so if you have any pressing question for whatever you likely won't be drowned out.

Edited September 15, 2013 by NodUnit

[Guest]

Thanks a lot for informing us of the updated release :cool:

New version frontpaged on the Armaholic homepage.

AH-64D Apache Longbow v1.2



Arma 2

==============================

We have also "connected" these pages to your account (NodUnit) on Armaholic.

This means in the future you will be able to maintain these pages yourself if you wish to do so. Once this new feature is ready we will contact you about it and explain how things work and what options you have.

When you have any questions already feel free to PM or email me!

** Note: since this is a project on which more people are working we will contact you in the future to discuss how you want this to be setup on Armaholic.

[Zozio 10]

Congratulations for this mod. It looks very promising.

I use a Track IR and so, it directs the IHADSS movements. Perfect :)

But to point on/select cockpit buttons, it's very difficult.

Is there a way to continue to use my Track IR to control IHADSS movements but use mouse to click on buttons (MFD, switches, ...) ?