AH-64D Apache Longbow for ArmA2 by Nodunit and Franze

[nodunit 397]

Hey, I've been reading the manual again because I sometimes get random "missile misses" and I have some questions about missile trajectories and types, and aiming the gun while on the move. Let me know if I got this right:

About Longbow missiles:

1- They work with any trajectory the same way.

2- They can engage moving vehicles only when fired in LOBL and FCR/G ON. Does acquisition need to be FCR?

3- LOS is needed for hitting the target. (In any missile type or trajectory?)

4- When fired with LOAL, FCR doesn't have to be on, and if so, it will hit the target's position at the time of lock?

5- Does pt.5 mean they can actually lock on targets with laser designator?

About SAL missiles:

6- Don't have "fire and forget" capabilities.

7- Can be fired in either LOBL and LOAL and any trajectory.

8- Need LOS to hit (this one I know).

9- If LOS isn't interrupted or blocked, missiles will always track the actual position of the target. If LOS is lost, they will pursue freedom.

Another observations:

10- The TOF countdown isn't very accurate, "seconds" aren't really seconds. Due to this fact, It's really hard to implement the bob-up technique.

11- When firing the gun on the move with HMD acq: the weapon aiming cue, the aircraft centerline and the target crosshairs are a bit confusing to me. I know there are ballistics in the way. Does wind affect it too? What does the aiming cue actually aim at?

12- Why do the MPD's pages are set for only for one side? The only one that works in both of them is the WCA, which I don't really use that much.

Thanks :)

AGM-114L

1. correct

2. yes and yes, FCR is required to be on in ground mode, otherwise you are literally shooting blind.

3. Only the radar must have line of sight.

4. LOAL and LOBL don't matter but you will need to make sure your ACQ is TADS if the FCR is off, it should hit target when TOF reaches 0.

5. left for Franze.

SAL

6. correct, you need a LOS for TADS and the seeker head.

7. Yes, and unlike L this effects how they behave in not only arcs but also the fact that you have a target set before launch or you launch and then set a target.

8. yes but you already knew that.

9. I'm going to leave this one for Franze as well as I'm not 100% clear if they are tracking a target, a laser or something else, I would think they track the laser instead but that step is skipped for AI.

10. seconds as in one Mississippi, two Mississippi?

11. This one is a bit fun and something quite a few people get confused on. You have 3 crosshairs, one is the HDU crosshair which is just there to show center where you are looking, it is NOT always where the gun looking or going to hit. Second is a dashed crosshair, this is the weapon processor crosshair which will track targets in AUTO mode.

The third is a crosshair is a bit smaller than the HDU crosshair and moves, this is the actual gun crosshair.

Keep in mind it isn't always accurate in really close ranges below the aircraft, though that is being tweaked a bit for the next patch.

12. This is partially a carry over from the past and a limitation.

Constantly moving components require bones, and there is a 256 bone limit.

TSD takes 32 bones for 32 targets and waypoints, add in +2 for FCR wipers atop that.

FLT takes at least 10, ENG takes 7.

If we add these on all four pages thats a total of (FCR+ target data= 136+ FLT 40= 176 + ENG 28= 204. Future room is left for heads out C-scope (press C-scope button on FCR page and you will see target symbology on vehicles on the HDU) on the ORT and TEDAC+ FCR data on TEDAC which would bring that to 236.

Factoring in the - .backup instuments; air speed=1, altimeter= 5, horizon and bank indicator at least 2

Animated switches and whatnot; power levers=2, ENG start=2, rotor brake= 1 so thats a total of....249 and we haven't even touched the exterior.

TADS and PNVS turrets being separate, the m230, the pylons, landing gear, rotor assemblies (swash plates move (mrotor swash plate tilts) blades twist individually (mrotor blades can also raise and lower individually) , air data sensors on the engines, doors, horizontal stabilizer, and I believe another bone for TADS/PNVS stowed position.

TSD, ASE, and FCR all rely on similar scripts and data (such as the moving targets) so they must be on the same page.

FUEL and WPN don't require any bones and will be in the next update, WCA also used no bones but it came much later in the process so we were better prepared to add it on both, just like DMS.

We could drop that count to 16 or so but then the FCR page would show more returns than TEDAC thus making that function kinda pointless.

Edited October 10, 2013 by NodUnit

[kimi_uy 134]

10. seconds as in one Mississippi, two Mississippi?

We could drop that count to 16 or so but then the FCR page would show more returns than TEDAC thus making that function kinda pointless.

Took me a while to discover the C-Scope function and I've gotta say it really adds to situational awareness.

About the TOF, what I mean is that the countdown doesn't work properly. For example, sometimes the missile hits at TOF=8.

I didn't understand the FCR vs TEDAC dispute :s

When you talk about TEDAC you're referring to the echo model right? Does this mean the next update will contain some new birdies?

Edited October 10, 2013 by geraldbolso1899

[nodunit 397]

Not necessarily, the news birds won't be till after the next update or so, right now Franze is focusing on refining weapon computing amongst other things and I'm working on getting materials finished.

Late in the project I discovered a few things about artificial polycounts and the way normals work when baked due to UV seams and splits, at that point I wasn't aware and it called for a large remake which voided the previous set I was using, I had also made the mistake of using overlay for my normals thus destroying the blue channel so I have to remake most of it.

TEDAC can display FCR data unlike the ORT, something we'd want to take advantage of which means we're reserving 32 bones for it.

We could half that and make it 16 but then there will be some confusion between using it vs using the FCR page as you don't get the same data...there could be a threat priority process but I'm pretty sure Franze won't be keen on that idea. We could halve general TSD bones from 32 to 16 so you'd get 16 waypoints and 16 targets but that interferes with a few missions in the campaign.

TEDAC is also more of a modular update, it appeared on block 2 and block 2+'s before the echo, heck theres even one in an alpha cockcpit

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3303/3531021189_d5b133831b_o.jpg

We want to finish more things on the B2 before we go introducing other birds, the CPG is in dire need of some loving for example.

Also for those of you that were hoping for the HDU symbology to be smooth like the FLT page, that'll happen next patch.

Edited October 10, 2013 by NodUnit

[franze 196]

Hey, I've been reading the manual again because I sometimes get random "missile misses"...

A bit redundant but I'll answer these too:

1 - Yes, always operate on the same trajectory regardless of launch mode or setting.

2 - FCR must be on, but you can acquire with TADS or FCR.

3 - LOS is needed only in LOBL mode.

4 - Correct, LOAL will send the missile to the target's position at launch.

5 -No, RF missiles have no laser capability.

6 - Fire and forget only if using a remote designator. If self designating then yes.

7 - LOBL and LOAL-DIR operate on a similar trajectory; LO and HI will force a higher altitude but a greater chance of a miss due to various factors like cloud cover, distance to target, etc.

8 - LOS in the terminal phase, yes. They can be launched without an LOS but a few seconds prior to reaching the target area an LOS can be acquired to minimize exposure to the launching aircraft. Tricky to pull of if you're the pilot.

9 - If LOS is lost, missile holds trajectory. Ergo, if the target doesn't change velocity, direction, etc. then the missile still has a chance to hit, depending on how far out it is.

10 - TOF is a guesstimate due to laziness on my part but part of it is the script that handles the countdown is still on the script scheduler so it doesn't always count down as it should. The countdown should be more consistent in 1.4 but the accuracy of the TOF countdown may remain suspect until I can make some better math at guessing how long it will take to hit.

11 - The gun crosshairs are a general indication of where the gun is pointing, not 100% accurate. When using HMD mode, the HMD crosshairs are where the rounds go - taking into account only velocity and distance. 1.4 will improve the accuracy of this. Basically where you look is where the rounds hit. The gun crosshairs just let you know how the gun is compensating for what or where you're aiming at for a given distance and velocity.

12 - Some pages use bones, such as the TSD, FCR, ASE, FLT, and ENG pages. The game has a set 256 bone limit (although it's actually designed to work with much less), so to conserve bones some pages are available only on certain sides.

Regarding missile accuracy in general: They are not always 100% no-miss-um primarily by scripting limitations and errors, but we consider this acceptable as few real life missiles have 100% accuracy. Distance, speed of target, angle of target - these all have an impact on how likely the missile is to hit. Best hit rate is between 1500-2000 meters with a slow moving target from the rear or the flanks.

I didn't understand the FCR vs TEDAC dispute :s

When you talk about TEDAC you're referring to the echo model right? Does this mean the next update will contain some new birdies?

In the gunner's cockpit, TEDAC is a display that replaces the legacy ORT (looks like a periscope) with an LCD. I'm not 100% sure but I believe the ORT will display FCR symbology in the HOD (small screen below the scope) and when looking down if the FCR is the active sight.

[gatordev 218]

While I can't speak for the Apache, TOF in the two versions of software I've used (-60B and -60R) is a rough guess. So if it's off by a second or two, it's not unrealistic. Also, the "LASE NOW" command is notoriously incorrect. No one actually uses it, and instead goes off the shot cards, which are part of the crew's normal documents in the cockpit. Keep in mind that a standard "QUAL" for a shot is Time on Target +/- 30 seconds.

[BradMick 0]

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Edited April 15, 2014 by BradMick

[doveman 7]

Had a couple of issues with the Training campaign. I'm sure at one point it said I should use the Crosshair Action on the M button on the Right MFD but the only M button I could see was the one leftmost bottom one and that wasn't clickable.

When I came back and reloaded the campaign the next day, I pressed J, which I'd assigned to IR Jammer but which also is assigned to Journal, which showed me a Move marker, so I flew to that and then followed the course until I got back to base and it showed a Get Out marker, so I landed but couldn't find any way to get out, even after opening the doors. There was no Get Out in the Action Menu and my usual key (2xCtrl, also tried 2xZ) didn't work.

Maybe it was sulking because I hadn't clicked on the M button earlier ;)

[franze 196]

Franze,

Not entirely true on the RF and Laser ops. While the Laser doesn't actually guide the missile to target, the aircraft has the capability of designating a target via the laser and then providing that data to the missile for firing. It's an alternate mode of firing an RF without the radar...

Thanks for the information!

For our purposes the RF missile won't actually track a laser spot and we don't have the capability (yet?) to store a laser spot coordinate in the system.

The model is kind of a mish-mash of Block I and II based upon various photos found on the net; no two examples seem to be the same depending on the source. Nodunit removed some antennas we had on the dorsal side which would have denoted some of the equipment you speak of, like the GPS antenna. I had asked him to put them back before release but he didn't get to it. The cockpit equipment is similarly all over the place - it was intended to represent an early Block II type without a lot of the newer (post 2005) equipment. We may have a Block I for all intents and purposes, but that's the nature of things when they're released in an unfinished state. We were intending to denote the various upgrades like the SATCOM antenna, EUFD, etc. with the Block II+ designator.

Had a couple of issues with the Training campaign. I'm sure at one point it said I should use the Crosshair Action on the M button on the Right MFD but the only M button I could see was the one leftmost bottom one and that wasn't clickable.

When I came back and reloaded the campaign the next day, I pressed J, which I'd assigned to IR Jammer but which also is assigned to Journal, which showed me a Move marker, so I flew to that and then followed the course until I got back to base and it showed a Get Out marker, so I landed but couldn't find any way to get out, even after opening the doors. There was no Get Out in the Action Menu and my usual key (2xCtrl, also tried 2xZ) didn't work.

Maybe it was sulking because I hadn't clicked on the M button earlier ;)

It's right next to the black button labeled TSD, the hint text for it is labeled as "Right MPD DMS Menu". The waypoints are only there as reference, the only strict instructions come from the instructor. :)

[nodunit 397]

...

Huh, I thought all of those upgrades were part of B2+ rather than block 1 (save for the antenna on the back, saw those on some alphas, just mistook that I didn't put them back in) But I'll happily take those photo's, always looking to expand my library.

Edited October 11, 2013 by NodUnit

[kimi_uy 134]

Hey guys, yesterday for the first time in my life decided to buy a flightstick. A Saitek AV8R-03, low budget but will suffice. The thing is it works very well in all games EXCEPT for Arma 2 obviously (:mad:"·$%&/&%%$$). So I decided to give it a try in Arma 3, with your Apache and gotta say I love flying that with a joystick (for the first time in my life YEY!). The thing is, in arma 2 there's this deadzone problem that I can't solve, mybe you guys could help me.

And Nod, here a picture of the new apache model that is being engineered by the navy, "AH-64sub":

http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/geraldbolso1899/media/arma32013-10-1122-20-14-95_zpsb691f39f.png.html

And in this one I found that dismembered parts of the apache can actually float (in arma 3):

http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/geraldbolso1899/media/arma32013-10-1122-19-35-63_zpsf82fadf7.png.html

This is a cool feature if you crash into water and don't know how to swim, you can always get hold of the rear stabilizer wing :)

http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/geraldbolso1899/media/arma32013-10-1122-38-00-12_zps4df163b2.png.html

Edited October 12, 2013 by geraldbolso1899

[franze 196]

Hey guys, yesterday for the first time in my life decided to buy a flightstick. A Saitek AV8R-03, low budget but will suffice. The thing is it works very well in all games EXCEPT for Arma 2 obviously (:mad:"·$%&/&%%$$). So I decided to give it a try in Arma 3, with your Apache and gotta say I love flying that with a joystick (for the first time in my life YEY!). The thing is, in arma 2 there's this deadzone problem that I can't solve, mybe you guys could help me.

Have you already looked into Options>Controls>Controllers? You can set a range of axis options in there which may help you out.

[kimi_uy 134]

Have you already looked into Options>Controls>Controllers? You can set a range of axis options in there which may help you out.

I checked that out but with no result, then i decided to reinstall drivers and voila! Thanks anyway :)

[kimi_uy 134]

I have a newbie question, how can I use the missile camera or bullet cam? I read some posts making reference of it in this thread and some videos NodUnit uploaded to youtube.

[franze 196]

It's a debugging camera, only applies for missiles. You can enable it by placing this in an init line: fza_ah64_miscam = 1

[cychou 11]

hello, i need help, i succeded to get the laser designator in the weapon cycle (via mouse menu "broadcast remote code" action)

I turned it ON (range displaying) then i switched to hellifre missile (agm-114K LOBL)

i shot a missile but it doesn't follow the laser designator dot.

what am i doing wrong ?

Edited October 17, 2013 by cychou

[kimi_uy 134]

hello, i need help, i succeded to get the laser designator in the weapon cycle (via mouse menu "broadcast remote code" action)

I turned it ON (range displaying) then i switched to hellifre missile (agm-114K LOBL)

i shot a missile but it doesn't follow the laser designator dot.

what am i doing wrong ?

You need to tell the gunner via the command menu to "target laser target" while having selected the K missile as weapon. Also, you have to set acquisition as HMD.

[cychou 11]

I am actually the gunner. everything is supposed to be done to shot the hellfire. but the hellfire doesn't track the laser dot, or sometimes it hit several dozens of meters too far.

[kimi_uy 134]

I am actually the gunner. everything is supposed to be done to shot the hellfire. but the hellfire doesn't track the laser dot, or sometimes it hit several dozens of meters too far.

If you're the gunner then acq must be TADS, HMD is slaved to the pilot's view.

I have just tested it with the gunner using TADS and works great, the only problem I found is when firing at targets that are very far, and you need to set the View Distance very high in order to see the hit, and that will probably lower FPS a lot.

Edited October 17, 2013 by geraldbolso1899

[franze 196]

You have to acquire the laser with tab lock and often you have to lead the target with the laser if it's moving to get a good hit.

[SilEighty 13]

Amazing mod guys.

Found an interesting bug when you hit 190-200 knots (yeah I know the max speed is ~150knots)

Skip to around 30 seconds.

Edited October 18, 2013 by PhoenixSPM

[franze 196]

That's why you don't exceed ~150 knots. ;)

[IcyDennis 10]

Tried this Mod right after reinstalling Arma2, actually it was one of the reasons to reinstall it :)

You guys did an awesome job here, this comes close to Jane's Longbow which I played to death back in the days. You don't plan to make a Kiowa as well, don't you? :cool:

Still trying to figure out how everything works, reading through the manual is a must here.

[franze 196]

We had a lot of other things in mind for what we'd do after the Apache but elaborating on them would be foolhardy; the amount of time it took from concept to release for the Apache pretty much says any announcements now wouldn't be accurate, especially when the Apache itself is far from done.

[kimi_uy 134]

Hey, I've been testing the ULB module with the apache and gotta say it works like a charm, but, I have to maintain LOS for the the missiles to hit the target (just like vanilla version). Another problem came to light: I can't switch to REMOTE designation even though there IS a remote laser targer. I can TAB-lock it in SELF designation just fine, but then I don't get what the remote designation actually does here.

I've also tried a somewhat sketchy test with me flying the apache and having a "team-switchable" Forward Air Controller unit. I shot a hellfire in the direction where the FAC would be designating then switched to the FAC real quick but with no luck at all. I think here is when remote designation should kick in, but then again I'm not able to :(

[franze 196]

Remote designation is a tad complicated on the back end but it will work with the ULB by placing this in the ULB init line: laserscript = [this] execvm "\fza_ah64_controls\scripting\add_remt.sqf"

The laser MUST be on when the missile is fired and this is the problem a FAC unit has, the AI in control of him will swap or turn off the laser as soon as it gets control. The system was really intended to work in cooperative mode with multiple players. You can override some of this by creating a fake laser target and adding it to the designator list like this:

_helilaser = "lasertargetW" createvehicle [0,0,0];
fza_ah64_desiglist = fza_ah64_desiglist + [_helilaser];

You will have to remove the laser via scripting when no longer needed.