Recent Helo Changes: Unflyable

[StrongHarm 13]

BIS,

Your most recent changes to the helo flight model make the airframe extremely unrealistic and unflyable in my opinion. I was in military aviation and have been a subject matter expert on flight simulators. My interest in Arma is almost strictly centered on air. I hope that you do some more tweaking to that code, or for me Arma will no longer be playable. If you have to sacrifice realism to provide a stable airframe for the average player, consider having a setting in options to select realistic or easy flight model. Please take this as educated constructive criticism rather than an empty complaint. Arma3 is otherwise an amazing achievement and I really like the direction it's going.

StrongHarm

[DaRkL3AD3R 1]

Hmmm odd I found that the MH-9 flew wonderfully today when I tried it. I was able to maintain a -15 degree pitch and keep forward speed around 120km without touching the keyboard. lol Felt wonderful.

[StrongHarm 13]

Hmmm... You and found it 'easier' to fly.. and you fly with a keyboard? You'd be one of the 'easy' flight model people.. if they were to take my suggestion. I'm glad it's better for you.. thanks for posting.. very helpful.

Hmmm odd I found that the MH-9 flew wonderfully today when I tried it. I was able to maintain a -15 degree pitch and keep forward speed around 120km without touching the keyboard. lol Felt wonderful.

[mantls 2]

Hmmm... You and found it 'easier' to fly.. and you fly with a keyboard? You'd be one of the 'easy' flight model people.. if they were to take my suggestion. I'm glad it's better for you.. thanks for posting.. very helpful.

Chill, no need to become rude.

I don't really check the changes in dev build so much. But A3's Helicopter Simulation did not satisfy me so far anyway. What changed in particular?

[StrongHarm 13]

Chill? I thought that my reply was very polite (though I guess it's obvious I sniffed at him huh?) considering his post was basically 'you're wrong I love it LOL'.. trolling is a theme with "Dark Leader"

The changes were to the overall agility of the flight model. I can't get the H9 into a funnel maneuver at all anymore. With the sensitivity of my flight controls all the way up, it still feels like I'm flying through molasses.. and as I said.. I fly a lot so I'm very sensitive to it.

Chill, no need to become rude.

I don't really check the changes in dev build so much. But A3's Helicopter Simulation did not satisfy me so far anyway. What changed in particular?

[Tonci87 163]

I tested it yesterday and it is much better than before. The Helicopters are very responsive and actually feel like helicopters, not like flying bricks.

(Make sure that you are on Dev Branch)

Oh Yeah I´m also one of those Keyboard people, does that make me casual? (I played DCS, ToH and other flight sims with M+K, yes this is perfectly possible if the Devs get the controls right)

[roberthammer 582]

On dev branch the heli controls are very good - ofc they won't be like TKOH ever

[Azzur33 1]

I tested it yesterday and it is much better than before. The Helicopters are very responsive and actually feel like helicopters, not like flying bricks.

Exactly.

....extremely unrealistic and unflyable in my opinion. ....easy flight model. ....You'd be one of the 'easy' flight model people.

Sure it would be nice if the Arma helos could only be managed with a joystick and hours and hours of training. But Arma being Arma, and not a flight simulator, means that players may change between the quite differend roles, as a rifleman, as an AT/AA/Explosive specialist, a leader, a helicopter pilot, a jet pilot, a driver, a tank driver, and so on, on the battlefield depending the mission.

So the "easier" flight model is ok, considering that a pilot in a battlefield never is a total rookie. He pretty much knows how to fly, so he can concentrate to the actual tasks he is ordered to do. To do them effectively and safe, you still have to learn and know what to do, how to engage and how to avoid being shot.

There is still lots of room to develope your skills as a pilot in an actual battle. And skillful pilots are priceless.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Azzur33

[Tonci87 163]

I believe that the current controls and FM are much better than everything else we had during the Alpha or Beta.

[StrongHarm 13]

I agree that a more stable airframe is better for straight and level flight. I would also agree that this is a generalized simulator that isn't centered on mastering any one aspect of military hardware or tactics. I would however assert that with the addition of rotary attack aircraft, you should be able to use them, at least to some degree, as you would in real life. Attack helos do not attack in straight and level flight. Watch the following video of me engaging the enemy from an H9 from before the latest changes and know that I can no longer come even close to this level of agility or lateral flight. The helo simply does not fly like a helo anymore.. and I say this not by way of personal opinion or preference, but as an expert and in educated conclusion. Without unrestricted physics and flight characteristics for attack helos.. they should either be removed from Arma3 or be made AI only... because they're now effectively useless in relation to their intended function and capability.

[Tonci87 163]

How about you tell me what exactly you can´t do with the new FM and wich changes made it worse than the old ones?

Because honestly there is nothing in that video that I can´t do with the new FM.

Maybe you just go really really used to the old FM and you need a few hours to get your head around the new one? :confused:

[MadocComadrin 12]

IIRC, there might have been some joystick configuration bugs/fixes in the last dev branch, so you may need to look at your control configurations again. I'm a k+m user too (it has some advantages over joysticks in some ways, but that's neither here nor there), and I can still do sideways flight and such.

Also, I really like your CAS mission.

[byku 13]

Have to agree with Tonci87, what is exactly the problem? I can do the same things(although some of them are harder) as before and imo the helis feel much better.(joystick pilot)

Edited July 23, 2013 by Byku

[kylania 568]

The remapping of the keys is ridiclous. Q/Z = up/down is ingrained by now. Same with X/C = rudder. Now it's Q/E = rudder and Z/X up/down?! What? How are you supposed to control that with your fingers? You went from having your fingers in a nice easy L shape where only one finger had to move to change rudder to having your fingers in a [7 shape where they all have to be in place or all have to be moving. So confusing, so against tradition and so unergonomic.

This is kind of the same as if you switched from WASD for infantry and instead used arrow keys as the default.

Wow, they did the same for ground vehicles too. Shift-W instead of Q/W/E. C'mon, make the CoDBLOpers learn the keys instead of going against a decade and more of key bindings to make things easier for the new kids.

Edited July 23, 2013 by kylania

[StrongHarm 13]

My OP was really directed to the BIS devs.. and the questions about what has changed were already answered in length... the fact that there were changes is not in question. Forgive me, but I have no desire to argue semantics or provide a class on flight characteristics. Those of you with constructive suggestions to resolve a client issue; I thank you for the attempt, but I am quite certain the changes were to the flight model.

I hope the devs will take the OP into consideration, though it seems that I'm the only user so far who perceives the issue. If the average non-aviation savvy user benefits so much from the new flight model, it's hard to predict whether the more realistic flight model will ever return. Oh well... that's what flight sims are for I guess.

StrongHarm out

[windies 11]

I don't think you're going to get the same experience from ArmA as you will from the DCS series for which you are an SME for. The scope of the game is not centered around the Air frames and their exact modelling or replication. They're there to offer simplified solutions for mission making, either CAS or transport. I'm not saying they couldn't be improved, in fact I would say you could get DCS level modelling in ArmA if you simply wanted to spend the time on that and only that. You would end up sacrificing so much though from every other area of the game though, it wouldn't be worth it.

As to your OP, I can't say I have noticed much of a difference in the Heli's except that for some of the obvious things from the patch notes. I can still do the same things I could before. I'm also not trying to induce vortex ring states or auto-rotations etc... though. Mainly I'm just using them for their intended purposes, simplified CAS and Transport roles.

[old_painless 182]

StrongHarm shows in his video how attack runs are done and if this is no longer possible, then heli use has suffered a serious blow. So what are y'all saying - you can do the funnel maneuver with the new flight models and new controls (they borked some of the controls temporarily, it seems) ?

[Tonci87 163]

I can.

Really Strongharm, we are just trying to help, maybe there is a new bug and you are the first to notice it, I don´t know. That is why I ask you to name the things that don´t work anymore. But seriously, when has the Arma3 FM been realistic?

I noticed that all the people saying that everything is ok are using M+K. Maybe you should check your Joystick settings?

[StrongHarm 13]

Thank you Tonic87. I know you're just trying to help and I do appreciate it. I was speaking with authority, not anger.. that's hard to convey in text. I mentioned at one point in the thread that I'm a subject matter expert. I literally have 3 applications to monitor my $1100 worth of joystick and flight equipment. That was one of the first things I tested.. the control profile. I was previously using .28 curves due to over correction from stick input, but now the responsiveness is equal to the previous profile with .80 curve.. even though it's now flat. The delta in airframe responsiveness isn't control related however, this is obvious from sluggish yaw and roll envelopes (not necessarily the beginning of the aspect change, but the full ratio of the change).

So, anyway, thanks for trying to help all.

StrongHarm out

[Blue1 10]

StrongHarm,

so many thanks for your OP!

I am not a "real life pilot" but i love to fly too, in simulators and many games - and i have some rather expensive flightsticks too - and i feel the same way as you described!

yes, i reconfigured everthing in Controlsettings after i recognized the H9 isn't the same as "before" ... something is weird and i really support your idea to have a serverside (sorry, i am a MP player and hoster only)-Option

to configure if it is either the "everyone can fly a game helo" or "some training is needed and joy/flightsticks are recommended"-variants!

Do you have a ticket for that already? Post link and i will support!

thx & best regards

Blue1

[gatordev 219]

StrongHarm,

so many thanks for your OP!

I am not a "real life pilot" but i love to fly too, in simulators and many games

I'm not sure we've actually heard that StrongHarm is a "real life pilot" either.

I have to admit, I could do everything in the current Dev build that you were doing in your previous version video, all with a joystick and throttle setup. If you're trying to equate what a real simulator feels like to reality, I think you're barking up the wrong tree, as I haven't yet experienced a military procured sim that actually feels like the real thing.

That said, I do agree that something appears to have been changed. It seems like the helos don't accelerate as quickly now and struggle to hold an airspeed. Before, it was very easy to get any of the helos up to 100 knots or greater (~200 KPH). Now they struggle to get much past 70 knots, plus they accelerate easier in turns, which doesn't make sense.

It seems like the flight model now matches A2 rather than the progress they made with TKOH and A3 Alpha. Hopefully that can get fixed, but I don't think I'd call it "unplayable" as you claim.

[sqb-sma 66]

There are some weird things about it, but I do like the changes when it comes to hovering and landing.

Particularly the way the heli reacts to rapid collective changes is just strange, and the autorotation/momentum of the blades are just... off, completely.

[StrongHarm 13]

gatordev.. I'm not a pilot by trade, I work for a mil tech lab. I've been a SME for the DOD and for market sims and earlier I was an aviation engineer in the military. I have had the opportunity to fly many military and civilian aircraft (but not as an occupation). The earliest sims I worked with were military ball sims for the F18 and F14 in the early 90s. I've always been an enthusiast. I wasn't insinuating (or barking heheh) that Arma3 has a realistic flight model. I was trying to convey that the latest changes made flight much 'less' realistic... like something you'd expect from BF3 instead of Arma3... and for my taste that is unplayable. For a more realistic pc helo sim I like DCS KA50, but I do enjoy flying while there are people actually involved in ground ops within Arma3.. it really adds to the immersion. I'm a disabled vet so if I'm not at work I'm flying my PC.. so I use a lot of different software.

My thanks to those of you who confirmed my suspicions.. I was starting to question my aviation sanity due to all the other posts. I've not written it up yet. I'm now wondering whether the devs are trying to arrive at a baseline by testing a wide array of parameters. It is beta after all, but when I flew after the last patch I was so disappointed.

[Tonci87 163]

Your explanation sounds to me as if they changes some sensitivity related stuff regarding joystick axis. That may be the reason why no M+K user is complaining?

[oukej 2911]

Does this relate to all helicopters or the xH-9 family only? (I am able to do a funnel e.g. with Mi-48)

Please take this as educated constructive criticism rather than an empty complaint.

What forces exactly do you feel are extremely unrealistic, could you please go into more detail/what exactly needs improving?

Also, take a look at the ticket here, as part of which (http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=9786) the changes were made altogether with constant juxtaposition of A2 OA, Take On and A3. Note that Take On is by no means in terms of the flight model a predecessor of A3. Though our team still tries to utilize the experience and knowledge about aviation gathered then to their best (within the limitations mentioned here and there).

Please understand, that the goal of the model is enjoyability and reasonable challenge, not a full-grade simulator. Maintaining more complicated model means also much much more love (read manpower), which then might not be received by something else - in other words, having a helicopter simulator and tank arcade in one game really isn't something we should do, at least not intentionally ;)

---------- Post added at 13:09 ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 ----------

The remapping of the keys is ridiclous. Q/Z = up/down is ingrained by now. Same with X/C = rudder. Now it's Q/E = rudder and Z/X up/down?! What? How are you supposed to control that with your fingers? You went from having your fingers in a nice easy L shape where only one finger had to move to change rudder to having your fingers in a [7 shape where they all have to be in place or all have to be moving. So confusing, so against tradition and so unergonomic.

Changes were made for sake of intuitiveness and consistency. The simple idea was leaning / pedals, crouch+prone / collective. Also to keep it consistent across environments. I would not say the ergonomy suffered. Tradition...

The old controls will stay in the Arma 2 preset. But as usual, nothing is carved into stone. Feedback is always welcome.

I was used to the previous controls probably more than anyone, but if the change can make the controls more intuitive, then now, before release, we have the last chance to do it. Forget about the muscle memory, if you forgot how it is controlled, rethink, what would you prefer and why? Please, let us know here: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?152866-Development-branch-discussion (to avoid cluttering the topic in this one).

Thank you!

Edited July 24, 2013 by oukej