Pistol animation is bad

[samco 1]

Well, top-notch body armour can take multiple shots from 7.62×39 right now, now considering the game set is 2030s and the advancement of nanotechnology and science material , a conventional pistol or smg bullet will have an hard time to penetrate such thing , then add the adrenaline factor .

[anthropoid 1]

ADDIT: just ran some 'tests' in the editor and I don't even think it is necessary to do any Bandicam as it doesn't really show what I was claiming above.

I setup a misson on sap_everon (the island where I was having difficulty killing USMC with a bison SD last night) with ACE, ACEX, ACERU, ACEUSN, and CBA running. Created a spetsnaz operator player (the soldier type I was playing last night) and set him to captive. Put in 12 USMC private riflemen and one corporal in charge of the squad. Set them to hold in line formation, safe. Put in some ammo crates, and tested out how the bizon sd performs in daytime conditions where the enemy won't shoot back and he starts out standing.

1. At point blank range, a single bizon sd round to the face (and seemingly anywhere in the head) will kill a USMC rifleman.

2. At up to 50m the same effect (although strangely the animation for the solder dying seems delayed by a couple seconds relative to the announcement by the next in command that the SL is dead and he is taking command).

3. Shots to the body are of course considerably less effective. Nonetheless, at point blank range, a few riflemen died with only 3 or even 2 rounds to the chest.

4. I suspect that most of the apparent 'ineffectiveness' of silenced pistol/smg weapons really derives from other factors than the damage calculations for the pistol ammunition

a. iron sights on pistols and many smgs are generally not ideal and this combined with some range or a moving target can make it difficult to score hits even when firing several rounds quickly

b. With short barrels, I would imagine dispersion is greater for pistols/smgs as well

I noticed that, if I took one very careful shot at their heads (which was easy to do as they were sitting ducks) I could drop a body armored riflemen with one shot at up to 50m. Less careful shots = it could appear to be taking more shots to kill him even if you see the blood spray, but that might be because the shots are grazing hits instead of solid hits.

So in sum: never mind! :p

It would appear that me and a lot of other people are a bit full of it with whining about how pistols and suppressed weapons are nerfed.

Hmmm, would be nice to have a bunch of you guys who know a lot about this stuff in a discussion specifically about pistol ammo in Arma2. As grist for the mill, might have to see what I can show with some Bandicam performing some proper tests :) will see about starting a new thread with that today.

Lets just say this: unless a mission places you in a situation where you have no choice, I see no good reason to use pistols in this game. SMGs seem a bit less useless, but generally also not particularly effective. Put suppressors on pistols or smgs, and it seems like your shooting spit balls! :p

Many guys in the coop group I play with (Comrades in Arms) have been playing the games for years so they have the insight of comparing how pistols and suppressed weapons have worked in each installment in the series. They seem to say just about the same thing: in Arma2 pistols and suppressed weapons are highly nerfed and generally to be avoided.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Anthropoid

[MattWales 10]

Can I also make another observation; when transitioning to a pistol, the character slings his weapon onto his back; this NEVER happens. There's the old saying "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight".

Travis Haley says in his video "Art of the Tactical Carbine", when talking about pistols "I'm in a rifle fight, I don't want this thing out".

A pistol is a back up; its there to be pulled out when your rifle jams or goes empty and you still have an imminent threat presenting itself. It is something you shouldn't willingly use during a rifle fight.

If you are going to your pistol whilst in a rifle fight, you want to draw your pistol instantly; don't fanny around slinging your weapon on your back.

You dump that bitch (your rifle) as quickly as you can, let it drop in front of you, so it hangs down the centre of your body to your front. At the same time your left hand is bringing your rifle/"primary" weapon down, your right hand is already moving down to your belt/leg to draw your pistol. You then bring it up as your left hand comes up to meet it. Push it out in front of you, front-sight-focus, boom boom. Take out the imminent threats. If you can, get into cover. If safe to do so, put your pistol away, get your primary back into the fight, then continue smoking bad guys.

Here are some examples;

- This is a very interesting piece on how pistols should be drawn, and why.

I appreciate that re-animating is not easy, especially if you have been using live-action actors to record the anatomical movements. However, if the characters are meant to be highly-trained SF operators, door-kicking and ass-banging, then the basics of tactical movement and manipulation of their main tools - their weapons - is vital.

[RSF TheCapulet 59]

Travis Haley says in his video "Art of the Tactical Carbine", when talking about pistols "I'm in a rifle fight, I don't want this thing out".

This. BIS doesn't need expert advisors to help them figure this kind of stuff out. Chris Costa and Travis Haley have already done all the work and released it in the "The Art Of ..." series DVDs. Art of the Tactical Handgun, Art of the Tactical Carbine, Art of the Tactical Shotgun.

BIS, buy these DVDs and have a movie day at the office. Your game will be better for it.

[MattWales 10]

Right, let me clear something up, so people don't get the wrong idea about me. My tactical experience is a limited, but fairly comprehensive bit of rifle training as part of my military training (I am NOT an infantryman, I am a trainee Aircrewman). That said, I always pay a lot of attention to weapons training in particular, because if I need to use it in anger, I am having a really shit day already, and I don't want to have to put much thought into utilising my weapon. I have a strong interest in tactical weapons manipulation.

With tactical movement and stuff of that nature, I think there's a lot of the old "We draw like this to get the pistol out faster" or "We do that to get the magazine out quicker".

You have to look at it from a fundamentals standpoint; there's a reason you want your pistol out quickly- to take out a threat.

Why do you want to take out a threat? Because the more threats there are, the more likely you are to get hit.

Why quickly? Because once you've taken out one bad guy, you can move to putting rounds onto the next.

Why do we want to reduce threats quickly? Because its about exposure time; the more time you're exposed to a threat, the probability of you getting hit goes up, meaning your survivability goes down.

But the WHOLE point of being in firefight is so often misconstrued; people think its all about killing bad guys. And yeah, I suppose to a limited extent it is. But the reason you are shooting back is because you want to live as long as possible right? Otherwise, why bother?

If your rifle goes tits up, jams, runs dry or whatever, and rounds are coming back towards you, which do you think you are going to live longer behind; a pistol, or hard cover? Cover, every time. If there's no cover available, then the next best thing is to at very least make the other bastard shooting back have to get behind his. If you shoot your pistol in a rifle fight, you're probably (I say probably) shooting at ranges over 75m- maybe more. At this range, you'll be doing well to physically hit what you're aiming at. But, if you start shooting back, the other guy will probably go "Oh Christ" and want to get his head down, because he probably wants to live to. If that gives you the split second you need to run to that low wall over there, DO IT!

A rule I strongly believe in (because, like it or not, it's true!) is: It's not the first shot you fire that counts; its the first HIT you make that counts.

I'll sum it all up by saying this; Putting cover between you and the enemy is good. Putting bullets between you and the enemy is good. Putting both between you and the enemy is excellent.

Below are some rules, that I have blatantly ripped from the Internet. I have removed some of the less applicable ones for brevities sake. That said, most of these make complete sense.

Rules of Gunfighting

Have a gun.

Preferably, have at least two guns.

Bring all of your friends who have guns.

Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.

"Why did you shoot only once? There's no additional paperwork for shooting someone twice!" -- Firearms Instructor P.O.J.D., MOS debriefing after a shooting.

Bring ammo. The right ammo. Lots of it.

Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

Proximity negates skill. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)

If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun… and a friend with a long gun.

In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading and running.

Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

Use a gun that works every time.

"All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket." (In other words, even Navy SEALs have bad days where things go wrong; What makes the difference is how you react)

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

"If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly."

This is the law:

The purpose of fighting is to win.

There is no possible victory in defense.

The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either.

The final weapon is the brain.

All else is supplemental.

Have a plan.

Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

Use cover or concealment as much as possible.

Flank your adversary when possible. Protect your own flank.

Don't drop your guard.

There is no such thing as a lull in a firefight. Just an opportunity to reload.

Always perform a tactical reload and then threat scan 360 degrees.

Decide to be aggressive enough, quickly enough. Deciding to get involved in a fight 10 seconds after it starts is no good to anyone except your adversary.

The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

Your number one option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Nothing handheld is a reliable stopper.

Carry the same gun in the same place all the time.

Edited May 26, 2013 by MattWales

[chortles 263]

This. BIS doesn't need expert advisors to help them figure this kind of stuff out. Chris Costa and Travis Haley have already done all the work and released it in the "The Art Of ..." series DVDs. Art of the Tactical Handgun, Art of the Tactical Carbine, Art of the Tactical Shotgun.

BIS, buy these DVDs and have a movie day at the office. Your game will be better for it.

Without getting into how narrow your view of tactical small arms doctrine (as if Costa and Haley were the be-all-and-end-all) is... everything about this is irrelevant when put up against the power of "design decisions" or "engine limitations". :lol: Heck, Smookie outright said "Recent design decision was to revert to sprinting with pistol aiming downwards..." No elaboration on why, though I asked, but there you have it:

This was intentional.

P.S. Unfortunately, MattWales; weapon transitions have been discussed for months now with no change and Smookie already responded months ago re: "sling back instead of drop", this sudden "infodump" (and admitting that it's Internet copypasta) isn't "helping" anyone at BI change their minds.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Chortles

[LiquidSnake 1]

How sprinting with a pistol is done is perfect. It should be the same when jogging. Holding the gun downwards simply makes more sense than holding it in front of you like that. It may increase your reaction time when running into unexpected enemies, but that's what the combat jog is for IMO. While jogging the gun should be held downwards and then when C is pressed it should be the same combat jog as it is now. At least have the character hold the gun down when lowering his weapon. Also, walking with the pistol lowered looks rather ridiculous lol. While walking and lowered the pistol should just be held in one hand.

[RSF TheCapulet 59]

Without getting into how narrow your view of tactical small arms doctrine (as if Costa and Haley were the be-all-and-end-all) is... everything about this is irrelevant when put up against the power of "design decisions" or "engine limitations". :lol: Heck, Smookie outright said "Recent design decision was to revert to sprinting with pistol aiming downwards..." No elaboration on why, though I asked, but there you have it:

This was intentional.

P.S. Unfortunately, MattWales; weapon transitions have been discussed for months now with no change and Smookie already responded months ago re: "sling back instead of drop", this sudden "infodump" (and admitting that it's Internet copypasta) isn't "helping" anyone at BI change their minds.

You misinterpreted what I said, either intentionally or unintentionally. I in no way said that Costa and Haley's small arms tactics are the be all, end all. But they do show a good representation on how it's trained and practiced in most situations. (Military and police) With this in mind, I wasn't saying "BIS DO THIS OR ELSE, YOUR DESIGN SUCKS!!!11one", I was saying that these guys show how it's done, which can be learned from and used to expand the design ideas for a lot cheaper than a typical military or police advisor.

The entire point of an Alpha is to give the devs feedback on what we think. How we feel about decisions they've made, etc.

And quite frankly, you have no idea what my experience is within this realm of expertise, and I've said nothing to suggest it otherwise. So keep the veiled attempts at insults to yourself, Chortles.

[MattWales 10]

I completely concur with what Capulet has said - I am pretty sure the guys at Magpul Dynamics have done work for the games industry before. If you want to see good examples of animation of tactical movement, go play the latest Medal of Honor offering. I know I'll likely get stoned to death for mentioning that here, but you know what, they're actually pretty accurate in terms of tactical movement.

Reading through the thread again, my overriding feeling on it all is this; if you are having to sprint with your pistol, something is badly wrong. Okay, if your rifle has just blown apart in your hands, had a catastrophic failure, bent a firing pin or whatever, fine, I can understand that.

If not, holster that f*cker, bring your primary up as you run, and reload it on the move, whilst telling your teammate that you are reloading. If you cant reload on the move, you have no place being an operator. I refer you back to that rule I posted before; "If you arent shooting, you should be moving, reloading and communicating". The point is, you're in a rifle fight, you want your pistol out for the shortest possible time because it just wont cut the mustard when push comes to shove. Now, granted, its a players decision whether he runs with this pistol or not; its part of the gameplay for him/her, however, most of the time, people sprinting with pistols have them back in their holster, because they are working with something else as they run.

Chortles; Okay, BIS might not have got it right yet, but the whole point of an Alpha, as Capulet said, is to give feedback in order to help BIS polish off what is already looking to be an excellent product. If they didnt care, they would have done a brief Beta, then slung out the product.

I dont know why you think that giving the Costa/Haley methods as an example is a narrow view - have you actually watched any of the series? "Art of the Dynamic Carbine" for example teaches the fundamentals - its giving you some more options for your tool kit, some new ways of looking at things, and being efficient with your weapon. At no point do they say "You MUST do it this way, or else" - they show how they do things and why. They are both experienced operators, and they are trying to impart some of their knowledge for the benefit other people. Not all of their students are ultra high-speed, low-drag SF operators; some are law enforcement, some are just guys wanting to be able to defend their loved ones. The basics always apply.

Edited May 27, 2013 by MattWales

[Inimical_rize 1]

This is strange to me, I'm not sure about you guys but if you double tap ctrl and run towards an area where you cant see well i.e the crest of the hill or in a built up area 99% of the time A.i will pop up and drop you before you've even raised your weapon. always happens to me lol

[RSF TheCapulet 59]

This is strange to me, I'm not sure about you guys but if you double tap ctrl and run towards an area where you cant see well i.e the crest of the hill or in a built up area 99% of the time A.i will pop up and drop you before you've even raised your weapon. always happens to me lol

How is this on topic?

[PN11A 2]

I think you all are forgetting BIS is a small company, their budget for this game may not be large enough to get the assets you are suggesting. Keep in mind also that this game will be a platform for several mods and expansions. Although most of us focus on the military aspect there is a group who uses it for other purposes.

[Inimical_rize 1]

How is this on topic?

merely suggesting that the idea of holstering a weapon and moving is strange, no soldier moves withought a means of deffence, and from me saying this also shows that the time it takes to draw a weapon and engage in game is increadibly slow, there for holstering and then moving to a engagment is stupid/strange.

the movement with the weapon pointed in a safe dirrection i.e up is the correct way to do it, as for reality, not many soldiers use chris costa's techniques, they're more than whats needed.

[160thSixgun 106]

Up is not always a safe direction, for example when your buddies are on the second floor. And as for modern techniques, most armies are usually behind the curve on the latest way to do things - especially where sidearms are concerned. It's just the nature of the beast: a large bureaucratic entity trains to a standard. Same with police departments. That's why these advanced training events are usually paid by the students out of their pockets.

As to sprinting while holding a pistol in high ready, competitors do it all the time every time. Running a mile? No, then you have time to reload your primary.

[rye1 21]

When you're in any training area with a staged platform, the cat-walk, above you - you're not supposed to have your weapon up otherwise you might cap the RSO with an AD therefore there can be this dogmatic hovering opinion when it comes to muzzle up or down, high or low-ready when it comes from an instructor perspective. As with many instructors, safety concern sometimes overlooks reality-risk and benefit. Chris (Crap) Costa and Travis (Tit) Haley got bagged pretty hard for their systems check, where they roll the carbine to visually inspect the bolt position, by some Military units -- and 'tactical gurus'. So, it's not all 'If he does, I do'. There is no correct way, there's only opinion. Don't listen to one source. For example I hear people talking about James Yeager like he's the God of God's. Have you ever seen his "CQB course" videos? Absolute crap. It's called superficial knowledge. There's many ways to do this over that and we won't get them all in game. They have to WORK for the game. We've got the cross-hold, we've got low and high-ready, we've got quicker animation-to-shot times. I think BIS if there were to change something aesthetically, can only make small changes because it's pretty much spot on in my opinion.

[roguetrooper 2]

Maybe I've also entitled my thread in a misleading way. The animation itself is not bad or 'unrealistic'. But since it is the only animation used in all situations it turns into some 'rediculousness' when you are running at fastest speed. Sure, when you hold (in a trained police/military way) a pistol in your hands, expecting enemies out there in the field, you hold it in front of you, otherwise you have it holstered at all (I'm not requesting a holster usage, just mentioning it).

Nevertheless in my opinion this only available animation just does not fit optically to running at full speed. For example when you want to overcome 50m between two houses in a combat situation as fast as possible on an open street with enemies behind the windows inside (or whatever).

[liquidpinky 11]

Maybe I've also entitled my thread in a misleading way. The animation itself is not bad or 'unrealistic'. But since it is the only animation used in all situations it turns into some 'rediculousness' when you are running at fastest speed. Sure, when you hold (in a trained police/military way) a pistol in your hands, expecting enemies out there in the field, you hold it in front of you, otherwise you have it holstered at all (I'm not requesting a holster usage, just mentioning it).

Why not have the raise lower holstering the sidearm?

Make use of those holsters on the units, or even better allow custom ones specific to the weapons that will attach via a proxy to the leg.

Then there is no problem of a gun never fitting a holster as it will have it's own specific one.

If you run it should automatically holster the weapon or at least hold it in one hand, combat pace and walking it should remain ready to use in both hands unless manually holstered.

[RSF TheCapulet 59]

merely suggesting that the idea of holstering a weapon and moving is strange, no soldier moves withought a means of deffence, and from me saying this also shows that the time it takes to draw a weapon and engage in game is increadibly slow, there for holstering and then moving to a engagment is stupid/strange.

Uh... Don't put your weapon down then? You're the one tapping double crtl here.

[rye1 21]

Wait... you holster the sidearm and then say engaging an immediate threat is 'slow'?! Relate to the last picture of my avatar.

[Inimical_rize 1]

Tit for tat here it seems. The animation and position of a holstered or un holstered weapon is fine, lets stop tugging at bis with trivial nonsense.

[RSF TheCapulet 59]

Are you trolling, or am I just missing large parts of your conversation?