Shooting around corners

[Sneakson 1]

i like how you call everyone stupid that thinks jumping is a valid action... "jumping gets a bad name because everyone with an iq over room temperature knows it's a pointless waste of resources to implement. " nice one there.. so anyone that thinks jumping is usefull has a low IQ.. Hmmmm..

I especially like how you compare jumping and climbing and say there the same and accomplish the same thing.(but some how you talk about others having a low IQ). how sow? you cant jump up a ladder .. you have to climb it.. You can't just jump up a wall, however, you can jump up to get a grip on the top, and climb over it.. a step over is slow and unrealistic if you were under fire.. Are you going to stop and slow step over a short obstacle that you cant go around... or are you going to take a running start and hop/vault over it as to reduce the possibility of BEING SHOT.. I guess that concept must be lost on use people with IQ lower then room temp...

Especially the fact if I don't have to expose my body to bullets and stay in cover, I am not going to.. and I will blind fire if i think it will accomplish my goal of killing an enemy i know is right around a corner or otherwise behind cover that i can reach around and shoot at them... again with out exposing my body

And I also like how some random British unit is quoted as "discouraging" blind fire.. and suddenly its a military LAW, that All Armies Follow, and do now allow their subordinates to blind fire.. hilarious.. to say the least. Your argument Seamus Is weak .. Please just stop posting.. As every time you do you lower IQ of the forums collectivly!!

And since i know its a real tactic i am going to go and scearch the web for photos or video of its use.. and i have already found one in a 5 second search

http://in.5thvillage.com/p/257987738148349608_8848912/

its not completely a blind fire but you as you can see US marines do it in war...but then again according to you he just has a really low IQ..

I really like that photo! I like how it's semi-blind actually. Being able to control your peeking above/around obstacles and independetly sticking your guns out to various degrees would be pretty crazy -- awesome but uncontrollable.

Could be possible using a system somwhat like the cover system in Crysis 2-3 (I'm guessing it's the same in the third game) though.

Anyways what if blind-firing was controlled something like this: you hold down a button which makes your character stand still then use the mouse to move your weapon smoothly on a vertical up-down-left-right plane and WSAD to lean your body sort of like you do when you’re adjusting left and right? Just a crazy idea.

That way you could get up close to a corner, hold down the button and move your weapon out around the corner to blindfire then tap A/D to briefly also stick your head out and peek. Either that or Q/E could be used and you’d just lean to peek like you usually do even while blindfiring.

Just ideas. My point is that nearly nothing is impossible to make easily controllable really. Just takes some imagination.

[chortles 263]

I really like that photo! I like how it's semi-blind actually. Being able to control your peeking above/around obstacles and independetly sticking your guns out to various degrees would be pretty crazy -- awesome but uncontrollable.

Could be possible using a system somwhat like the cover system in Crysis 2-3 (I'm guessing it's the same in the third game) though.

That doesn't look like blindfire though, it looks like it's "unsighted" fire -- probably odd to hear (not least since Arma 3 has no third-person animation with which you can tell when someone is aiming through the sight) but it looks like he's seeing just over the cover that he's firing his weapon over.

[dnk 13]

Considering blind firing happens in just about every video game for the past several years and in most action movies at some point I don't really see the irrationality of it besides not being to any effect outside of CQB.

Because much of the community doesn't want them included? Because many play this series specifically for its realism (as they see it) and not because it's a BF3/COD copy with larger maps? Is this a new fallacy, the ad hollywoodem?

Seamus (poorly) makes a good point that they have more important features to implement that are still unimplemented or undeveloped (bipod resting, the climbing anims), and these would add more to gameplay than an outright (and almost totally useless) jump. Really, with full gear and 40+ lbs of crap on, how far can someone realistically jump? A few feet? When are we ever going to use this feature? Look at Stratis - where can you use it? Cite even 3 example situations, and I might reconsider.

Climbing up/over medium height obstacles, straddling over low obstactles, and perhaps a "climb down" anim for dropping down a level (compared to just falling in a standing anim) are all we really need, I think. Another thing I would like is a "slide to prone" anim (think baseball + switch to forward prone), which at least I use frequently in paintball/airsoft, and I think is again more commonly used than actual jumping in real combat (though I wouldn't know).

Edited April 15, 2013 by DNK
Blind firing may be used in combat, I'm not really an authority on that.

[machineabuse 11]

Blind firing ought to be discouraged for the sole reason of the increased risk of fratricide. In a game, there are no lasting repercussions to putting a bullet into a friendly/noncombatant.

Possible? Yeah lots of things are possible. Most of those things just aren't very good.

[mmaruda 20]

I would not mind having this, however I do not think this is necessary. There are other, more pressing thing that need to be in Arma.

If I was to argue against the idea... Well, you see this being done by insurgents in footage of street combat, but not really professional military (it was already explained above why). Arma focuses on professional military and they just do not blind fire. It's a waste of ammo and a high risk of hitting someone you do not want to hit (like an innocent sheep or donkey). Out of all the useless things in Arma, I'd rather have dual wielding - at least it's bas ass and could benefit some movie making. ;)

[Sneakson 1]

Because much of the community doesn't want them included? Because many play this series specifically for its realism (as they see it) and not because it's a BF3/COD copy with larger maps? Is this a new fallacy, the ad hollywoodem?

Seamus (poorly) makes a good point that they have more important features to implement that are still unimplemented or undeveloped (bipod resting, the climbing anims), and these would add more to gameplay than an outright (and almost totally useless) jump. Really, with full gear and 40+ lbs of crap on, how far can someone realistically jump? A few feet? When are we ever going to use this feature? Look at Stratis - where can you use it? Cite even 3 example situations, and I might reconsider.

A lot of people use the popular argument that there are better things to implement. Why?

I don't know a lot about BIS really, but this being at least their 4th big game they don't strike me as a small studio and since they had both advertisements and reviews of their games back when their first games came out I doubt they were ever very small.

Second vg development also runs in many parallels and just because one guy is working on one feature in one room that doesn't mean that the entire company will be slowed down to a crawl because of it because they're all working in independent groups doing different things.

Right now we’re getting divers, underwater mines and submarines – how often will you use any of that really?

BIS aren’t indie devs and clearly they’ve the resources to implement all sorts of really resource heavy junk not to mention the 20 km view distance that no indie could dream of.

Implementing blind-firing would take some guys some time to do and these could be the guys working on animations and climbing rather than the guys working on often requested improved explosions and sfx.

Anyways besides that people are way too eager to compare ARMA to Battlefield and CoD, and now that's a fallacy.

A lot of games are going mainstream for sales (so they think) and get crap reviews (to the devs' big surprise) but that clearly isn't the intentions of the ARMA-crew.

And jumping doesn't turn a game into CoD just because it's got jumping like Quake. Battlefield doesn't even have that bad jumping does it? I recall it as having a pretty nice jump/mantle-in-one for getting where you need to go.

And a soldier in full gear can jump. You may see the equipment and think it must be heavy like hell but remember they walk around in that – all day, even running and mantling through city warzones.

Besides in ArmA you can strip down to a tee if you want to and even run around in your undies. Ever had your Björn Borgs weigh you down enough to not be able to jump? Doubt it.

Rural Stratis is pretty flat but two occasions where I've certainly felt the need to jump is when trying to get up on rocks in the rural areas and when trying to jump into a boat from the pier -- I end up running straight into the water if they're too far out.

On Altis I'm also pretty sure there's going to be an occasion where we can jump between two adjacent buildings or any number of situations trying to get on top of manmade things.

So there are occasions.

Mantling gets you across short obstacles like fences but doesn't really work well when trying to get up on rocks and other natural obstacles.

Blind firing ought to be discouraged for the sole reason of the increased risk of fratricide. In a game, there are no lasting repercussions to putting a bullet into a friendly/noncombatant.

Possible? Yeah lots of things are possible. Most of those things just aren't very good.

Discouraged sure, but what if you're going into a building or around a corner and know there are enemies right in there and you're all out of grenades?

Also this has nothing to do with teamkilling. People shoot each other by accident frequently already.

I would not mind having this, however I do not think this is necessary. There are other, more pressing thing that need to be in Arma.

If I was to argue against the idea... Well, you see this being done by insurgents in footage of street combat, but not really professional military (it was already explained above why). Arma focuses on professional military and they just do not blind fire. It's a waste of ammo and a high risk of hitting someone you do not want to hit (like an innocent sheep or donkey). Out of all the useless things in Arma, I'd rather have dual wielding - at least it's bas ass and could benefit some movie making. ;)

So you're saying people do it in reality and that's an argument against the idea? Considering ARMA3 will be an engine that people will use to simulate all sorts of wars -- rebel wars included -- I'd say ARMA isn't just going to be about highly trained special ops.

[metalcraze 290]

And a soldier in full gear can jump.

how high exactly?

[lordprimate 159]

Wonderfully stated, Sneakson!! All to often people focus on just one aspect of the arma series possible gameplay. Large military organization's are represented in arma, however, so are the small rebel forces, the private military companies(mercs). It always amuses me when someone says this or that shouldn't be done because the US military doesn't do it , or because the British don't do it, or because they are under the pretense that the game is designed strictly around those factions... They are not the only faction in the game.. They are not GOING to be the only forces in the game.. The arma community seems too finicky and nit-picky when these arguments crop up.. Some people want ARMA to be about strict, regimental organizations. When in fact the world is filled with other factions that operate completely autonomous and often exclude the ideals of the next group.. I have sat in large clans Teamspeaks rooms, and heard arguments that ARMA is not a GAME, it is a Simulator, or, its a SandBox, blah blah blah. Either way the idea behind the Whole Arma series has been to create your own battle.. Why limit other players gameplay because, you dont want it there.. Guerilla factions use Guerilla tactics.. and Guerilla factions are in Arma.. Hmmm, considering this, and that Arma has three factions Bluefor, Opfor, and Indi.. why not include anim's and actions that these very different factions might undertake??

On another note, I watched a video of the invasion of bagdad.. Where two marines were killed by their own.. The shooters in both situations had a CLEAR LINE OF SIGHT... but they still were shot and killed by fellow marines. And your worried about blind fire. It is a sad and all to common story in real life, it will always be a problem.

these type of posts never cease to amaze me, out of everything he said this is all you heard.. "a soldier in full gear can jump"??

how high exactly?

It depends on how much training he has done with gear, and how strong his legs are.. Remember everyones different! His point was that these "soldiers" train in that gear, they build muscle to move this gear... Not some untrained , nonathletic civilian just throwing on a bag and trying to jump over crap. Hence why in game, if you are a CIVI, and you try to carry a load of gear you tire much quicker then a military unit..

Solution:

Why we all dawn a load of backpacking gear, or what have you and go and record ourselves and post back how high we can jump with 100lbs of gear??.. Sound reasonable..

Edited April 16, 2013 by Lordprimate

[scrim 1]

What's even the point of it? Seriously, stand by a corner, use body lean and toggle Q/E lean, then use the spectator thing in the menu and take a look at how exposed you actually are from the point you're aiming at. Seriously, you're gonna need to use thermals to see the guy.

[seamusgod 1]

jumping has extremely low utility in and out of combat, contrary to the false perception created by counter strike, quake, doom, etc. if climbing was a feature back in those days, you can bet no one would give two craps about jumping features now. but since an entire generation has been brainwashed into thinking that that's the optimal method of getting on top or over something in a game, it's become accepted.

climbing is plain superior, more congruent, and far more realistic than jumping. it's also harder to implement, which is why the far easier alternative of jumping has survived so long. jumping is a game construct, it never has and never will be a simulacrum of how humans actually move in real life. and i made a mistake earlier, there is no such thing as a "realistic" jump feature.

it makes about as much sense as putting the word realistic in front of dual wield. another thing you can do in real life, also occured in combat(read about jason mike's exploits), want it in the game yet?

Edited April 16, 2013 by seamusgod

[lordprimate 159]

I am just glad that Smookie is a DEV, and actually works on the game. I know at some point ill be able to press my turbo key( #4 mouse button ) and press A,D, or S, and be able to blind fire around a corner or over my head... Considering the vault was already in there, not much more to say then thanks to DA for the discovery and script to create a nice little vault, And wait for Smookie's works....

And why do people bring up Lean in a discussion about blind fire.. please exit stage left.. If your Leaning enough to expose your barrel to shoot, AND you have your face behind the sights .... Your Head Is Exposed.. I would rather get my fingers shot at/off them my head..

[chortles 263]

The whole point of the request is specifically not peeking out at all, and as we've seen, the other mainly-known animations dev besides Vespa has been looking to make it vanilla... :D

[machineabuse 11]

Discouraged sure, but what if you're going into a building or around a corner and know there are enemies right in there and you're all out of grenades?

Also this has nothing to do with teamkilling. People shoot each other by accident frequently already.

First, weather I can shoot or throw a grenade around the corner without looking doesn't change the fact I will need to enter the room or go around the corner to check. Second, the chance I will effectively hit something shooting indiscriminately is so low it's not worth giving my position away.

Third, you gloss over my implication about the significance of fratricide in real life which has long term psychological and legal implications.

All of which is why indiscriminate fire is neither taught nor endorsed and in many cases strongly discouraged (often legally and frequently by ROE) by military forces worldwide.

For the sake of discussion yes, you can stick this capability in for insurgents and what have you. However with respect I think the theme you will find in my posts and others is that the sum of benefits of this idea in respect to what ArmA is and is trying to be is somewhat lower than what you think it is.

[nodunit 397]

If blind fire were implimented it would be neat if AI civilian/resistance/insurgent classes used it more than actual leaning.

And yes I'll argue on side of insurgents and military as opposed to focusing soley on conventional military because those two have been just as much a part of the series as the latter since the Nogova Militia which even had their own dedicated expansion.

"What" Arma is, is a giant sandbox focused on infantry gameplay and anything that expands on that gameplay, be it military or civil should be added if possible.

I find myself wondering if people would have detested against leaning if it were announced before being shown in OFP:E..if they should say that it didn't fit the bill because it would allow people to fire mostly unexposed and disrupt gameplay.

Edited April 16, 2013 by NodUnit

[chortles 263]

I believe that you two (posting before NodUnit) have very different ideas about what the Arma concept is...

[dnk 13]

To be fair to blindfiring, I've seen at least 1 video of US soldiers (seemed like a full squad) doing it in a 150m+ engagement in Afghanistan. Didn't look terribly accurate/effective, but it was used. Still don't think it belongs in the game, but clearly it happens.

[smookie 11]

As you know, i am a big fan of blindfire but probably wont get a green light for it here. I will do a blindfire mod though, unofficial one.

[machineabuse 11]

Make it part of the Insurgency Warfare DLC and everything will be right as rain ;)

[mmaruda 20]

So you're saying people do it in reality and that's an argument against the idea? Considering ARMA3 will be an engine that people will use to simulate all sorts of wars -- rebel wars included -- I'd say ARMA isn't just going to be about highly trained special ops.

I said I do not mind having it. The thing is there is a lot of things people do in real life, but are not in Arma. I mentioned dual-wielding - make a thread about that and you'll just see how many people argue against it saying it's like COD. Personally I welcome all improvements/additional features that can make this game different from the previous ones. However, bearing in mind that adding new stuff requires a lot of work, I'd rather have other things first: supporting weapons, better animations, changed vaulting/climbing, more focus on CQB, roping from helos, better flight model (better reaction to yaw at high speeds), better stealth against AI... Oh, and dual-wielding! :) I could go on. Basically my point is, whatever they add in Arma, I welcome it, but we need to prioritise, as we cannot have everything. That said, my argument against started with "IF", which basically was intended to indicate, that I am not against the concept, but I do understand arguments against it. I'm down with everything that can provide a better experience, but certain things should come first. Cheers!

[chortles 263]

As you know, i am a big fan of blindfire but probably wont get a green light for it here. I will do a blindfire mod though, unofficial one.

$14.99 Blindfire DLC confirmed. [/sarcasm, but oh no some sperg will actually believe this] :lol:

[smookie 11]

Its actually only $4.99 for each stance :) Because obviously people dont need blindfire in every situation :D

[chortles 263]

C'mon BI, you're behind the Season Pass curve! :lol: [/more facetiousness]

[Ghillie 10]

Lern2Lean. But in all seriousness, nobody on the BI community wants to see kids running around blind firing around corners.

Tactically speaking, NATO military forces don't do this in operations as there would be unavoidable civilian casualties.

Shoot accurately and lay down suppression fire, not wildly spray around corners.

[chortles 263]

Define "the BI community".

[scrim 1]

I don't mind it being a mod you can chose not to download, because having blindfire available to everyone by default would've been a can of worms.