Correct military ranks for ARMA3

[da12thMonkey 1943]

I'd like correct ranks for the US, UK (if it's more than just Miller, which I hope it's more than just him), and Iran since those are the featured factions.

Honestly, can you see BIS putting in the effort to make the game know whether the bloke I am putting down in the editor is an Engineer and change the lowest rank title in the list to "Sapper" instead of "Private" (or "Trooper" when I put down a tank-crew)...

Having a true-to-life rank-title system in the game is pretty unworkable due to the complexity of real military rank systems (in spite of NATO OF/OR codification no two forces have completely parable rank structures), and fundamentally it has very little practical aspect on the way the game would play besides allowing you to choose an arbitrary title from a list in the editor. As many point out, ranks only exist in the game to establish command hierarchy within a squad and do not reflect any facet of the difference in duties of different ranks in a real-life military. The game only needs enough ranks to establish who should take command next in a squad containing a 'realistic' number of personnel, and what these ranks are called isn't really important since while playing the hierarchy just comes down to who is numbered 1,2,3,4... etc. in the command menu, rather than the title of the rank they were assigned in the editor.

Having the option to assign a unit with an authentic OR-8/9 title instead of making them a 'Sergeant' or 'Lieutenant' isn't going to suddenly turn the AI from acting like a standard Arma 'Private' whose function is to go to a waypoint, and shoot anything nasty it sees on the way, into one that tasks itself with bollocking sub-ordinates in an office, and writing blokes up for keeping their kit in shit order.

If people want a unit to be appear as "Master Sergeant Jones" and wear chevrons in a mission, this is what the 'Name' field and setobjecttexture are for.

[seamusgod 1]

;2372298']Also to add to my earlier post' date=' I'm not saying BIS should drop US as a faction wholly, just to drop them as the protagonist faction, if they took a side role like there is speculation the Russians are taking then that would be good.

Source? The Wiki and any official source I can find still has the description as miller being the main character, if it's true then I think it's sad, I was very much looking forward to the guerilla style (campaign) gameplay BIS were touting.

As said by Harzach above, the current military ranking is basic and for hierarchy purposes, it can be argued that it still doesn't follow ranking protocol for any military group. It is basic.[/quote']

the real military power behind nato has always been the us.

[viper[cww] 14]

the real military power behind nato has always been the us.

Keep thinking that buddy. ;)

[R0adki11 3949]

the real military power behind nato has always been the us.

I think that is open to interpretation.

[Binkowski 26]

I don't see the point in changing it or adding more ranks. Currently it's just used for hierarchy and nothing more. I can't justify having this many enlisted ranks.. this is just United States Army..

Private, Private Second Class, Private First Class, Specialist, Corporal, Sergeant, Staff Sergeant, Sergeant First Class, Master Sergeant, First Sergeant, Sergeant Major, Command Sergeant Major, Sergeant Major of the Army.

And for Warrant Officers..

Warrant Officer 1, Chief Warrant Officer 2, Chief Warrant Officer 3, Chief Warrant Officer 4, Chief Warrant Officer 5.

AND FINALLY for Officers..

2nd Lieutenant, 1st Lieutenant, Captain, Major, Lieutenant Colonel, Colonel, Brigadier General, Major General, Lieutenant General, General, General of the Army.

Now, are all of those ranks necessary for ANY reason? Short answer no, long answer no. I'm not a US fanboy (I know, an American not being a fanboy? Must be drunk).

the real military power behind nato has always been the us.

Seriously? -_-

Edited April 16, 2013 by Binkowski

[antoineflemming 14]

;2372298']Also to add to my earlier post' date=' I'm not saying BIS should drop US as a faction wholly, just to drop them as the protagonist faction, if they took a side role like there is speculation the Russians are taking then that would be good.

Source? The Wiki and any official source I can find still has the description as miller being the main character, if it's true then I think it's sad, I was very much looking forward to the guerilla style (campaign) gameplay BIS were touting.

As said by Harzach above, the current military ranking is basic and for hierarchy purposes, it can be argued that it still doesn't follow ranking protocol for any military group. It is basic.[/quote']

I can't find it anywhere, but I actually think it was on the post-E32012 website. Because I know they changed the story from the E32011 storyline. E3 2011 storyline was Miller's team is wiped out and he's alone on the island (then, Limnos). And he ends up raising an army basically. Also, Europe has been invaded, making Limnos deep behind enemy lines. After E3 2012, they changed the story. Now, there's the Jerusalem Accord, and Iran only got through half of Greece. I think it was on the website that Ben Kerry was the main character. Then they changed the website again for the Alpha release, and removed all the campaign information.

[Scogol 10]

[...] Having a true-to-life rank-title system in the game is pretty unworkable due to the complexity of real military rank systems (in spite of NATO OF/OR codification no two forces have completely parable rank structures), [...]

While having all "administrational" ranks in the game will probably make it way too complex, there is excactly one rank currently missing: a second NCO.

I also don't see any major difficulties in localizing the ranks, i.e. have different names for the same ranks for each country (if multiple BLUFOR/OPFOR countries are actually introduced.

[table=width: 500, class: outer_border]

[tr]

[td]Rank description[/td]

[td]International NATO Name[/td]

[td]Local name (as an example: in the German army)[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Soldier[/td]

[td]Private[/td]

[td]Gefreiter (also Soldat)[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Fireteam second-in-command[/td]

[td]Corporal[/td]

[td]Stabsgefreiter[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Fireteam leader[/td]

[td]Sergeant[/td]

[td]Feldwebel[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Squad Leader[/td]

[td](Staff) Sergeant[/td]

[td](Ober)feldwebel[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Platoon second-in-command[/td]

[td]Lieutenant[/td]

[td]Leutnant[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Platoon leader[/td]

[td]Captain[/td]

[td]Hauptmann[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Batallion second-in-command[/td]

[td]Major[/td]

[td]Major[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Batallion leader[/td]

[td]Colonel[/td]

[td]Oberst[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

[Beagle 684]

While having all "administrational" ranks in the game will probably make it way too complex, there is excactly one rank currently missing: a second NCO.

I also don't see any major difficulties in localizing the ranks, i.e. have different names for the same ranks for each country (if multiple BLUFOR/OPFOR countries are actually introduced.

[table=width: 500, class: outer_border]

[tr]

[td]Rank description[/td]

[td]International NATO Name[/td]

[td]Local name (as an example: in the German army)[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Soldier[/td]

[td]Private[/td]

[td]Gefreiter (also Soldat)[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Fireteam second-in-command[/td]

[td]Corporal[/td]

[td]Stabsgefreiter[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Fireteam leader[/td]

[td]Sergeant[/td]

[td]Feldwebel[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Squad Leader[/td]

[td](Staff) Sergeant[/td]

[td](Ober)feldwebel[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Platoon second-in-command[/td]

[td]Lieutenant[/td]

[td]Leutnant[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Platoon leader[/td]

[td]Captain[/td]

[td]Hauptmann[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Batallion second-in-command[/td]

[td]Major[/td]

[td]Major[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Batallion leader[/td]

[td]Colonel[/td]

[td]Oberst[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

And there the devil in the detail, your table does not fit...the german ranks do not fit the rank description.

You're for example missing the "junior NCO" Unteroffizier thats relates more to sergeant while a feldwebel is more liek a Sergeat major...The distinction is that a Feldwebel in prussian times is a long time NCO with Officer like privileges (hence a Officer like portepee on the sabre) while a Unteroffizier is what you consider when you talk "sergeant". A Leutnant is usually a full flegded platoon leader and a feldwebel will fullfill the same role as a Leutnant....the best Analogy to a Feldwebel is the Anglo-American Warrant Officer. And there are 4 Feldwebel ranks as "Feldwebel" is a rank class of its own like a bridge rank beetween NCO and junior grade Officer....but...a Leutnant might be just 24 Years old while a Hautfeldwebel or Stabsfeldwebel might be 35 or much older. And a Gefreiter is not a soldier but a PFC...there are ranks (Schütze, Jäger, Panzergrenadier etc. )well under Gefreiter and back in the 1990's the promotion to Gefreiter was not as "automatic" after basic trainig like it is today. another typical and quite unique traditiion regarding ranks in german army is that NCO and Officer "candidates" have different rank insignias and rank attributes from the very beginnig of the career (like: Obergefreiter OA, Hauptgefreiter UA etc.)

Edited April 16, 2013 by Beagle

[antoineflemming 14]

@Scogol: That's what I want. I want a second NCO to at least differentiate rank between the Squad Leader and the Team Leader. While that may not be important to some, I'd at least like that distinction. And yeah, I'd actually like for the rank hierarchy to mean something in-game. Basically, that as a squad leader with a platoon leader and a team leader, that I can command my team leaders. Because pretty much if you aren't the top guy, you are basically a private in-game. In-game, there is no hierarchy. There's only the leader and the followers. While in the real-world military, there are leaders, and subordinate leaders, and subordinate leaders, and then followers. In short, I just want to be able to tell my AI fire team what to do when I'm a team leader in a squad-sized element, as opposed to just having them follow me around. Now, if there's any way to make this into an addon, please let me know, but I do know that having at least another NCO rank (like Staff Sergeant for SL) would help this.

[Waingro 10]

Well, looks like I sparked some decent discussion. Glad to see there was very little hate amongst peers. Admittedly I'm not very well versed in ARMA editing, so thank you to everyone for bringing up the different aspects of the rank structure built into the editor. If you can edit the displayed rank of a particular soldier, airman, marine, sailor, coast guardsman than that is all I'm really looking for. Antoineflemming brings up some very good points for an additional rank to add that extra layer of "management" within the editor. I'm sure a lot of these things could be accomplished via scripting, I was just hoping to have something hardcoded into the editor that provides more ways to manage your personnel and add an element of authenticity to an already mature and detailed game. It looks like all the nuts and bolts are there, so I need to get savvy with scripting and editing. Thanks guys.

[Lord Cochrane 10]

I'm in favour of keeping it simple.

Battalion CO - Colonel

Battalion 2IC - Major

Company CO - Captain

Company 2IC - Leutenant

Platoon CO - Leutenant

Platoon 2IC - Sergeant

Squad Leader - Corporal

Fire Team Ldr - Lance Corporal

[antoineflemming 14]

I'm in favour of keeping it simple.

Battalion CO - Colonel

Battalion 2IC - Major

Company CO - Captain

Company 2IC - Leutenant

Platoon CO - Leutenant

Platoon 2IC - Sergeant

Squad Leader - Corporal

Fire Team Ldr - Lance Corporal

Yeah, but the Sergeant is the Squad Leader and the Team Leader. There's no USMC Lance Corporal rank in Arma. By your rank structure, the team leader would be the Private. And that's not ok. That's why I'd like:

General

BN CO - Colonel

BN 2IC - Major

CO - Captain

PL - Lieutenant

SL - Staff Sergeant

Team Leader - Sergeant

Specialty Weapon - Corporal (that's your grenadier, your marksman, your MG)

Rifleman - Private

Staff Sergeant would be the new NCO rank to differentiate between the Squad Leader and the Team Leader, who shouldn't be the same rank. And before some repeats that it doesn't matter, I'd like it to matter as I'd like for this to affect gameplay (as in, who you can command).

[artemas 1]

I don't really see the need for any more ranks. There are already two NCO ranks, and you basically have everything necessary for a field command. The only thing the arma system doesnt model is the interplay between NCO and officer ranks at higher levels, ie CSM vs company commander. But I think that is largely unnecessary.

also, look how easy it is to modify the rank table antoine gave to the arma system:

General

BN CO - Colonel

BN 2IC - Major

CO - Captain

PL - Lieutenant

SL - Staff Sergeant Sergeant

Team Leader - Sergeant Corporal

Specialty Weapon - Corporal (that's your grenadier, your marksman, your MG) really doesnt matter, its more of an appointment

Rifleman - Private

Edited April 17, 2013 by artemas

[antoineflemming 14]

I don't really see the need for any more ranks. There are already two NCO ranks, and you basically have everything necessary for a field command. The only thing the arma system doesnt model is the interplay between NCO and officer ranks at higher levels, ie CSM vs company commander. But I think that is largely unnecessary.

also, look how easy it is to modify the rank table antoine gave to the arma system:

General

BN CO - Colonel

BN 2IC - Major

CO - Captain

PL - Lieutenant

SL - Staff Sergeant Sergeant

Team Leader - Sergeant Corporal

Specialty Weapon - Corporal (that's your grenadier, your marksman, your MG) really doesnt matter, its more of an appointment

Rifleman - Private

A corporal wouldn't be leading a fireteam. Oh, and by the way, all you did was remake my table into the existing table. Which isn't really modification so much as backtracking. 1) I really don't see how hard or how problematic it'd be to add in one more Sergeant rank. 2) Currently, the Squad Leader and Team Leader are both Sergeants (as in, they are the same rank). That shouldn't be the case.

Edited April 17, 2013 by antoineflemming

[artemas 1]

If it were moddable, then great. But your assertion that a corporal wouldn't be leading a fireteam is actually you projecting the specific institutional norms of a specific branch of a specific military onto every other. In the Second World War for example, largely before the explosion of ranks, corporals regularly led squads or sections, and in other current militaries some fireteams are in fact led by corporals.

I don't think that changing the system as it is to appease people who want a perfect recreation of the Icelandic Gendarmerie, the Canadian Forces, or Captain Roger's Space Privateers (or in this case the USMC) is really a good idea.

The first and foremost reason to change the system is if it provides a practical advantage to the game's systems.

[PN11A 2]

Your trying to hard to sound intelligent about war and at the same time insult Fleming. His request is not far fetched, and the purpose of a simulation is to simulate conditions of its subject matter. It is impossible to simulate every variable that exist in the real world therefore simulations are a generalization. The lessons from ww1 and ww2 have no bearing on this game considering its based on current military warfare.

[viper[cww] 14]

I can't find it anywhere, but I actually think it was on the post-E32012 website. Because I know they changed the story from the E32011 storyline. E3 2011 storyline was Miller's team is wiped out and he's alone on the island (then, Limnos). And he ends up raising an army basically. Also, Europe has been invaded, making Limnos deep behind enemy lines. After E3 2012, they changed the story. Now, there's the Jerusalem Accord, and Iran only got through half of Greece. I think it was on the website that Ben Kerry was the main character. Then they changed the website again for the Alpha release, and removed all the campaign information.

I seen some gamescom footage of last year with Ivan showing some of the showcases I believe I saw the name Cpl. Kerry pop up at the start of one of them, so I believe you in any case.

Your trying to hard to sound intelligent about war and at the same time insult Fleming. His request is not far fetched, and the purpose of a simulation is to simulate conditions of its subject matter. It is impossible to simulate every variable that exist in the real world therefore simulations are a generalization. The lessons from ww1 and ww2 have no bearing on this game considering its based on future military warfare.

I didn't read any of what your describing in artemas' post. He's written a reasonable and valid point, oh and I fixed your mistake in the above quote.

[PN11A 2]

Cool so let's all make a post about not seeing someone else's point of view

---------- Post added at 17:31 ---------- Previous post was at 17:28 ----------

And thanks for correcting whatever you corrected typing on iPhone is not the best way to relay thoughts

[slatts 1978]

This thread should have stopped at this.

The ranks in the editor are only for assigning unit hierarchy, not denoting the unit's actual rank.

[antoineflemming 14]

;2375561']I seen some gamescom footage of last year with Ivan showing some of the showcases I believe I saw the name Cpl. Kerry pop up at the start of one of them' date=' so I believe you in any case.

I didn't read any of what your describing in artemas' post. He's written a reasonable and valid point, oh and I fixed your mistake in the above quote.[/quote']

Wait, you use Gamescom as an example of a showcase with the name CPL Kerry popping up? Uh, how bout the Alpha Infantry showcase, where you play as Kerry? lol. I don't know why they changed it, but I do at least remember them saying that you are now playing as the 7th ID, which is the division Kerry's apart of. Miller was SBS. Besides, at his age in 2035 (43), most likely he'd be in a senior command position as opposed to leading his own team, squad, platoon, or company.

I hope that they do have British forces (at least SBS) in the game and not just some US regular infantry (whose gear actually looks more appropriate for the 75th Ranger Regiment than for regular infantry).

[viper[cww] 14]

Cool so let's all make a post about not seeing someone else's point of view

---------- Post added at 17:31 ---------- Previous post was at 17:28 ----------

And thanks for correcting whatever you corrected typing on iPhone is not the best way to relay thoughts

Future military warfare is what I corrected, you can't blame an iPhone for that mistake, but I see you were trying to get another reaction out of me with that post.

Wait, you use Gamescom as an example of a showcase with the name CPL Kerry popping up? Uh, how bout the Alpha Infantry showcase, where you play as Kerry? lol. I don't know why they changed it, but I do at least remember them saying that you are now playing as the 7th ID, which is the division Kerry's apart of. Miller was SBS. Besides, at his age in 2035 (43), most likely he'd be in a senior command position as opposed to leading his own team, squad, platoon, or company.

I hope that they do have British forces (at least SBS) in the game and not just some US regular infantry (whose gear actually looks more appropriate for the 75th Ranger Regiment than for regular infantry).

I youtubed it :p

[PN11A 2]

;2375604']Future military warfare is what I corrected' date=' you can't blame an iPhone for that mistake, but I see you were trying to get another reaction out of me with that post.

I youtubed it :p[/quote']

Yes, I said current, because just as what we have today is based on the past world conflicts. This games technology although futuristic is based on current military warfare.