Amazing sounds samples.... but a bad sound engine

[babylonjoke 22]

The soundengine actually has quite a few awesome new additions :)

Stereo samples being one of them. The main problem IMO is also a very nice addition ironically. There are now dynamic filters that can be applied indefinitely in theory.

That means, for every distance you wish, you can create filters to get the base sound filtered dynamically to create distance sounds without having to actually make them by hand for every distance.

Yeah don't forget that this should have been a standard since Arma 2. We are in 2013 and I would like to see more improvments in the sound engine.

Arma is always one step forward in terms of gameplay and concepts...but two step backwords in terms of technology... (don't mishapered me, the new features are awesome... just the sound has been basically forgot... from long time)

[purepassion 22]

Yeah unfortunately, the sound hasn't really been a primary focus of development due to whatever reason... :/ Let's hope it will change as there are already some steps in the right direction.

[LordJarhead 1726]

I dont say that I waited for such a topic, but well, finally someone opened it up and discusses the new engine tweaks Bohemia did.

The first thing we all should think about is, that the actually seeing material was all in Alpha version. We dont saw any "final" material. That just in-front.

So, as I was playing ArmA3, which I did for a while now, I realized that they really worked on the engine, the way it produces locational sounds, the new features and the biggest invent since Ofp: Stereo sounds.

I wasn't really looking for new sounds though, I was just looking for a new basement to work with, so I just tested the sound engine really quick and focused totally on the new stereo feature: http://mirror.24th-platoon.de/EBR.mp3

Thats just how easy a sample could sound awesome, the stereo ability allows me to really produce long reverbs/tail-offs, give each side (left, right) some depth to make the listener aware of being surrounded by objects. Well, this all sounds nice so far, but also has its downsides.

The new engine supports filter techniques and hard coded algorithms which are great, as long as you know how to use them. Right now it seems that Bohemia was only implementing those techniques but did not worked them out really. Basically there are only three filters for pistols, for Rifle and for explosions. Near, Mid and Far, called begin, middle and end. The way they get into account is pretty strange also, begin does not work at all because its not assigned. Middle starts after 30 meters already and continues until 200 when end comes in. End stays all the way to 1200 meter or where ever the sounds stop. See a problem? The weapons within 30 meter sounds all the same, as they do between 30 and 200 and 200 and their longest range.

Now the good part about that: We can easily increase the number of used filters. I for example run 14 filter classes right now, this makes the sound able to change every 50 meter, or less, what ever you set up there. So thats a neatly little thing to work with and create some dynamic sounds. But BIS does not really worked it out so far, since distanced sounds seems to be louder than my own rifle sometimes. Also the filter makes some sounds sound strange.

So what would be the best way to fix at least some problem? Yes, having Stereo sounds for firstperson, going Mono for thirdperson. That would not only make the filters work better plus eliminate the left/right problem that people have sometimes (because the sound has two channels and the closer the sound to the player gets, the more the sound will be played on both channels) it would also give the engine far more air to breath since the mono files are 1. far smaller, 2. faster to handle and 3. wouldn't create weird filter sounds. Because use a stereo gun sound, mix it into one mono channel and pitch it a bit, sounds strange. But thats what the engine is doing when they are not that close anymore.

Yeah, the vehicles sounds are really a category for themselves^^ I dont know what BIS exactly tried to create, but I think they want to give each RPM Section a certain soundfile. Like saying in idle (500-1000rpm) it gets sound 1, 1000 - 1500 rpm it gets sound 2, 1500 - 2000 rpm it gets sound 3 and so on. The problem is that constantly "Change" in the engine. It does not flow right, like a soft increase in RPM, its more like tap positions, like bbbbbbBBBBBBBAAAAAARRRRRRR... hard to explain, but everyone who really listen to the engine sounds knows what I'm talking about.

Also what I realized and what really really really is a sad thing, is, that there is no doppler effect anymore Oo. Like for helicopters. When a helicopter comes towards you the engine sounds higher pitched normally, and it goes down when it flies away from you again. But in A3 its just BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE no matter where it is, where it is flying to or what ever. Just weird.

I really hope this is a alpha related thing and that this will be fixed. I for my part can only say, that this new, or old but tweaked engine, provides some decent abilities for a soundguy like me. The new stereo-sound abilities are brilliant and allow me to really create more depth soundings. The filters are pretty cool and can add a lot of immersion to the game, especially when it comes to the use of distance sounds. Since still, no matter how good the engine might be or not, I will go with the old fashion way and give certain distances their own soundsamples. The script we are working on it pretty nice and since A3 allows using alot of A2 stuff, the FPS and Inroom sounds are working already again. Still I would have liked a filter just for being inside a building. That would far more intelligent and provide a better feeling than over-layer sound samples.

All in all some of the tweaks are good, some are not. I for my part wont let Bohemia stop me with their.... tweaks and will continuing working on MY sound for ArmA. It is pretty important still to mention, that all this could change, who knows what the next update would bring? We still need to think about the alpha version we still play in currently. NOTHING in this game is safe from being changed again ;)

Thanks,

LJ

Edited March 30, 2013 by LordJarhead

[Gnalvl 1]

To give a basic example of where the sound engine bothers me - the scale of minor sounds like brass hitting the floor is too loud compared to major sounds like gunshots. In my experience shooting, even if you're wearing hearing protection that filters in quiet noises and filters out loud ones, you're not really aware of the sound of the brass. Even when it's hitting hard surfaces like concrete, the sound it really too dull to stand out over the firing - occasionally a particularly loud brass impact might be barely audible, but it's not this constant "BOOM!.. put! BOOM!... put! BOOM!...put!" you hear in Arma 2 and 3. Honestly I find that sound rather annoying and distracting when I'm trying to concentrate on visually referencing where my bullet hit.

[LordJarhead 1726]

jsrs only covers shooting sounds no?

I would like to have better driving engine sounds too. they seem to be cutted sometimes.

is there a engine list of variables etc how the sound engine works, or where do the guys get their info from?

I dont like the mysterical aspects of the modding scene. why not open up, get public etc only good comes from it..

JSRS covers 95% of the sounds of A2CO ;)

The engine sounds are pretty weird, yes. They use certain soundsamples for certain RPM sections. Like one sample for 1000-1500 rpm, one for 1500-2000 rpm and so on, thatswhy it sounds like a constantly change in the engine sound, really weird. The Idea is pretty cool, really old too, but does not work right^^

How do we know about that? By open the pbo's of a game and just look inside of them. There are no mystical aspects in the modding scene. People just dont ask, thats their loss, not ours. Still there is not config really to work on new sounds for vehicles, I just realized what they did by seeing 15 engine sounds from idle to rev ;)

LJ

[tremanarch 6]

JSRS covers everything, well almost everything, he didn´t cover the get in/get out sounds and a few other minor things.

Go and try playing Arma 2 with JSRS or search on YT

I did and while I notice that some sounds are replaced that doesnt mean neccessarily its covered ;)

the driving sound had severe problems, its not jsrs fault - but it was lacking anyway.. just to say.

jsrs is but the best sound mod out there!

--

regarding the engine knowledge - yeah so its basically blacklboxing. I dont like that. I like to have a documentaion, otherwise it would feel just as altering. Maybe there are ways around it we cant know because they arent used in the PBO's we checked.. I guess not, but to be unsure of that would give me sleepless nights.

Without clear documentation I would never spend so much time. But I respect ppl that do that! And the outcome in the past has been pretty good! And with your mod (jsrs) jarhead I always liked you answered questions in your thread.. this mystical stuff statement wasnt directed in your direction, it was just a generic conclusion I draw of my experience with all the mods and creators I tried in the past.

--

btw getting deeper:

when you talk of filtering what do you mean exactly? are you using the terms of music industry? so I might ask what types of filter we can use: 6-12-24-48db? lowpass highpass notch bandpass or something else? how many we can use at the same time for how many sounds in what way? How good is the resolution of the cutoff frequency (does it make sense to apply lets say a lowpass filter to a shooting sound and while we come nearer the cutoff opens? linear or better logarithmic? can we apply the in a cascade and alter them via live variables in game (distance, speed, weather etc?)

Edited March 30, 2013 by tremanarch

[Shatter3D_S0uL 1]

Yeah,the overall experience is bad.I think right now the sound in ARMA 3 has many issues that need to be solved.

[LordJarhead 1726]

this mystical stuff statement wasnt directed in your direction, it was just a generic conclusion I draw of my experience with all the mods and creators I tried in the past.

Hehe, cheers mate ;)

Yeah some people are kinda restrained about telling us their knowledge. But that I can fully understand. I mean for JSRS, which is just a lazy soundmod compared to things like CWR or FDP, thousands of hours went into it, over 4 years already I think. Of course some wont like to give informations away so maybe even others would work ahead of them with their ideas.

Still, the BIS community was always the best, as long as I can remember. ;)

btw getting deeper:

when you talk of filtering what do you mean exactly? are you using the terms of music industry? so I might ask what types of filter we can use: 6-12-24-48db? lowpass highpass notch bandpass or something else? how many we can use at the same time for how many sounds in what way? How good is the resolution of the cutoff frequency (does it make sense to apply lets say a lowpass filter to a shooting sound and while we come nearer the cutoff opens? linear or better logarithmic? can we apply the in a cascade and alter them via live variables in game (distance, speed, weather etc?)

Nah its less complicated and rather is is pretty simple. I dont really know how to call them, more like effects I think, but I just call them filters. They work pretty easy:

You have multiple classes, each class stands for a range in which that class will act. For example:

class JSRSHandGun 
       {
           class Begin : Default
           {
           };
           class Middle : Default
           {
               distance = 30;
               frequency = 0.950000;
               gain[] = {1.000000, 0.794328, 0.501187, 0.316228};
               threshold = 0.316228;
               attack = 45;
           };
           class End : Default
           {
               distance = 200;
               frequency = 0.850000;
               gain[] = {0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1}; 
               threshold = 0.010000;
               attack = 0;
           };
       };

Thats what I was talking about. The Begin is doing NOTHING in the BIS class, I just renamed the Class name to prevent doubling of classes or conflicting addons because I just copied this from my JSRS2_Filter.pbo. After 30 meters, so Middle, there are some basic filter effects for the sound samples that get played at this distance. The normal entries are really basic and does not really work out pretty, but with the right tweaks here and there you can create something cool. In the end it would be possible to make one sound sample sounds different each time you hear it. The thing is that working something like this out is hard work, since you make one little change, got to restart the game, test it, exit the game, tweak again, start again and so on. So to get to the needed result it will take me weeks I think. We'll see ;)

As for your questions this is not a on-the-run-tweakable class. Maybe with scripting it would be possible, but actually this is a config needed by the game. Since all sounds (at least weapons and explosions) are basically using this so be "formed" inside the world. The only things we could do with these filters are the change of pitch, frequency, doing a little bit of resonance filtering, giving an impact, a various change withing four steps or more, didnt tried yet, and how much the sound would come in account in overall volume, I THINK! Not sure, I did not worked myself deep enough into it yet ;)

But there are more important hard coded algorithms inside the games engine that I cant touch right now, those would open up more doors maybe. At least for me, since I know already what would be my first attempt to "tweak" :)

LJ

Edited March 30, 2013 by LordJarhead

[VanZant 48]

In 2013 a stereo sound engine should not be a new feature. It is a must have since many years.

I've spent a couple of days checking the engine, thinking of creating a sound mod as real as possible. And when I say real I mean distance attenuation, occlusion, absorbtion, 3D reverb and real 3D perception with an HRTF aproximation, lot of binaural sampling work ... It's impossible even getting closer.

Why? Because the engine is still monolithic, class based, and lacks of versatile functions to play sounds without delay (involuntary), individually with custom and dynamic properties as volume, pitch, looping, basic filtering, fading ... mixing layers ...

It is not enough assigning a sound to one or more classes, even if it is stereo. The sound engine is primitive. :(

[tremanarch 6]

thats interesting. must give that a longer look... thx mate!

[LordJarhead 1726]

In 2013 a stereo sound engine should not be a new feature. It is a must have since many years.

I've spent a couple of days checking the engine, thinking of creating a sound mod as real as possible. And when I say real I mean distance attenuation, occlusion, absorbtion, 3D reverb and real 3D perception with an HRTF aproximation, lot of binaural sampling work ... It's impossible even getting closer.

Why? Because the engine is still monolithic, class based, and lacks of versatile functions to play sounds without delay (involuntary), individually with custom and dynamic properties as volume, pitch, looping, basic filtering, fading ... mixing layers ...

It is not enough assigning a sound to one or more classes, even if it is stereo. The sound engine is primitive. :(

..... compared to what? Popular AAAGames? Yes, you are right. But we talk about Bohemia, for those this is a giant step and for the community this is a new basement to create their mods, since other AAA Games does not allow that. So when the only thing to create your own content and mods is the sound disadvantage I say "f*ck it and have fun doing the sh*t you like!" :)

LJ

[VanZant 48]

..... compared to what? Popular AAAGames? Yes, you are right. But we talk about Bohemia, for those this is a giant step and for the community this is a new basement to create their mods, since other AAA Games does not allow that. So when the only thing to create your own content and mods is the sound disadvantage I say "f*ck it and have fun doing the sh*t you like!" :)

LJ

Not particulary with AAA games. It is most a kind of frustration because after a lot of years, well, I was hoping more improvements with A3. And not only with the audio.

Yes, we all know that BIS is an independent developer and maybe they have not the same resources than others, but it is just that, frustration.

Despite this I still loving this game and what it represents, not only the new graphics. People who play this saga know what it means. :)

[LordJarhead 1726]

Not particulary with AAA games. It is most a kind of frustration because after a lot of years, well, I was hoping more improvements with A3. And not only with the audio.

Yes, we all know that BIS is an independent developer and maybe they have not the same resources than others, but it is just that, frustration.

Despite this I still loving this game and what it represents, not only the new graphics. People who play this saga know what it means. :)

You are right again, but also we got to think that this is just an really really early alpha version. I would be amazed if BIS really stays with that right now, audio, graphics, physics. Lets give this some more time and we'll see how we go from there ;)

Other than that: Amen brother!

LJ

[babylonjoke 22]

I think that compare arma 3 to the others AAA games is legit. Actually I think it's one of the top 10 games most awaited in the 2013 ...

Anyway... since I'm not an expert I would like to ask:

Would the implementation of a new sound Engine be hard (such as Fmod)?

Would that bring more benefits to the immersion of the game?

Would that influence negativly the modding?

Would that be for you , LJ ( since you are a master of sound modding ) , more easy to use?

Edit: Better complain now that the game is in development, instead of complain after that it's released :D

Edited March 30, 2013 by Babylonjoke

[Tonci87 163]

@LJ, did they fix the problem with the Machineguns? You know the problem that distant MG sounds get played only every third shot or so.

[LordJarhead 1726]

I think that compare arma 3 to the others AAA games is legit. Actually I think it's one of the top 10 games most awaited in the 2013 ...

Anyway... since I'm not an expert I would like to ask:

Would the implementation of a new sound Engine be hard (such as Fmod)?

Would that bring more benefits to the immersion of the game?

Would that influence negativly the modding?

Would that be for you , LJ ( since you are a master of sound modding ) , more easy to use?

Edit: Better complain now that the game is in development, instead of complain after that it's released :D

First I would like to state that I don't think in any way that Bohemia would go with third party tools. I remember way back as it came to discussions about what kind of graphics engine Arma 3 may uses, Bohemia stated clearly to use their own, home made products which would make the work far easier for them, since they build the engine and such.

As the game is still in Alpha phase, I'm not so sure but I would think it would be the best chance right now to drop in a new audio engine. If they would do that, the question would be, what kind of engine and can Bohemia afford that. Still, using the own made engine has it benefits. The bigger problem is the fact, that sound does not count that much in the eyes of Bohemia.

A new sound engine would bring NOTHING to the game if you dont have someone who can handle it. To create immersion it does not need a high performance or super professional engine. You can create all kind of immersion with what ever is giving. Even in Arma2 I was able to prove that after many said it wouldn't be possible ;)

Sure it would have influence on the modding, because how hard would it be to work with that engine? How fast can someone work himself into it? Would it even possible to mod with this kind of engine? A new engine does not automatically mean that Bohemia would stay with their license agreements. A new engine could make Bohemia dance for others as well. Plus the fact, no matter how good FMOD interactive Audio is, changing to another engine would cause the whole community to follow and work by that engine. Imagine using FMOD now, having .fdp, .fev or .fsb files, what program would you use? Everyone would be forced to use one certain program that might not work out for everyone, especially (which is not the case at FMOD) if it wouldn't be freeware or open source ;)

Would it be more easy to use.... hmm. Good question. The thing is, the better the software gets, the more you have know. Basic knowledge wouldn't be enough anymore. When it comes to depth and hard coding even I come to an end with this. And who could continue here? Yes, people who would get payed for this stuff. Which is not me :) I for myself like working with my Digital Audio Workstations but wouldn't mind to get a chance working on a new engine as well. The more new things I try the better I end up I think. Even if for some of you the step in sound from A2 to A3 is minimal, for a dude like me it opens doors, into directions I had no idea to go to :)

@LJ, did they fix the problem with the Machineguns? You know the problem that distant MG sounds get played only every third shot or so.

As far as I heard, yes. But can't be so sure. In A2 they took it out after the release after it was in the game once ;)

LJ

[Mcwaffle 10]

Is it possible to listen to all the audio samples in for example Winamp? And how?

[afp 1]

They are in game sounds.pbo file, you need to learn how to unpack those. For the moment they are .wav files, so you can use any of the sound players.

[-=seany=- 5]

I think Arma3 samples are pretty nice, I really like the rifle sounds the most. The way the sounds are used and processed for the environment however does not have a patch on JSRS. The audio scape is confusing with relation to distance and positioning, eg I hear foot steps behind my player when in 1st person that are my own. Helos are also hard to tell their distance and they appear and disappear way too abruptly. Hopefully this is just because it is in Alpha stage. But BIS should really take a good look at JSRS and see why it is so popular.

Jarhead for Sound president!

[babylonjoke 22]

A new sound engine would bring NOTHING to the game if you dont have someone who can handle it.

We are talking about a professional studio there, which is Bohemia Interactive... if they can't handle that who can do? :P

To create immersion it does not need a high performance or super professional engine. You can create all kind of immersion with what ever is giving. Even in Arma2 I was able to prove that after many said it wouldn't be possible ;)

You sure? I mean, ok, it's the player that create the immersion. But I guess you agree with me when I say that it's disturbing have the same sounds from any kinda of directions and enviorment. Or have to add another sound for each enviorment ( such as indoor sounds ).

It's just weird have the sounds that does not merge with what you see

And that's why you made the JSRS mod, because also arma 2 was leaking of these stuffs, or am I wrong :D ?

[Tonci87 163]

I think Arma3 samples are pretty nice, I really like the rifle sounds the most. The way the sounds are used and processed for the environment however does not have a patch on JSRS. The audio scape is confusing with relation to distance and positioning, eg I hear foot steps behind my player when in 1st person that are my own. Helos are also hard to tell their distance and they appear and disappear way too abruptly. Hopefully this is just because it is in Alpha stage. But BIS should really take a good look at JSRS and see why it is so popular.

Jarhead for Sound president!

So I´m not the only one noticing this!

I have a Roccat Kave 5.1 Headset and it seems as if the players footstep sounds are getting played on the rear speakers, especially on the rear-left. That really freaks me out becuase it gives me the urge to constantly turn around to check if there is someone behind me.

[LordJarhead 1726]

We are talking about a professional studio there, which is Bohemia Interactive... if they can't handle that who can do? :P

You sure? I mean, ok, it's the player that create the immersion. But I guess you agree with me when I say that it's disturbing have the same sounds from any kinda of directions and enviorment. Or have to add another sound for each enviorment ( such as indoor sounds ).

It's just weird have the sounds that does not merge with what you see

And that's why you made the JSRS mod, because also arma 2 was leaking of these stuffs, or am I wrong :D ?

I've created sounds for weapons that change every 50 meters to a new noise. The dynamically surrounding is totally different and provides far more realistic immersions. I can locate the shooter, I can approximately say on what distance he is or what kind of weapon he is using. All that with an old system and some scripting (thanks to Psycho btw). Plus I can have sounds only for firtperson view, a machine gun on a car sounds different when I'm inside the car than standing next to it. I have inroom sounds that only appear when shooting a gun inside a room. All that was already possible.

And yes, even location related sounds are possible. Am I in a forest? In a village, on a meadow, in the desert? Sure thats all possible. But I'm just one person! I gave already 4 years of my spare time to create what is there now, so I was just to lazy to keep the track on these as well PLUS the important fact that the engine, the old one, is at some point not able to give all those script air to breath. The FPS rates would shrink, the overall functionality would collapse, some sounds might not even be played because we have a blockage that does not allow us to play more than 128 sounds at once :)

I wasn't making JSRS because ArmA2 had bad or good sounds, I really dont care what the game sounds like. In fact I only played 5 minutes in A2 before I stopped and started making sounds. Why? Because I was looking for a basement to work with. I wanted a game that allows me to mod it plus has all kinds of stuff, vehicles, weapons, environment, script functions, movie scenes, it was a paradise (Believe me, when you come from CS:Source to ArmA your head explodes for ideas). Thats why I did sounds, because I was able to create the sound I had in mind. Damn even if ArmA3 would sounds like BF3 or something I would still mod it, for my own sake. Not because a community may ask me to ;)

But as said, for me is ArmA3 again a new platform to work on, build up new sounds, create new immersions, what ever. I dont say I hate the A3 sounds, in fact they are pretty nicely done, but does not fit in my opinion, plus the overall issue BIS is having with the system or how to use those samples. But thats something else to talk about.

We are talking about a professional studio there, which is Bohemia Interactive... if they can't handle that who can do?

HAAAA! I really dont want to talk much into that, but "a member" of BIS told me how it really looks like. The dude they had for sounds in A2 had no idea on how to use the softwares, they just put him in front of a PC and said "DO IT!". Believe me: When you say professional Studio by concerning sound topics, what the hell do you think why we still talk about a sound issue here, heh? :D See what I mean :P

LJ

Edited March 31, 2013 by LordJarhead

[cenkcnk 0]

chopper's gun sounds are very disappointing

[babylonjoke 22]

Yes LJ, in fact you have created a masterpiece of mod, but in 1.7 GB...I mean.. 1.7 GB!

The whole Hell in the Pacific mod is 1 GB...

I know in Arma you *could* do everything... I just find "nosense" saying that "was possible, still is possible" because of several factors :

1) How will it sound ingame

2) The file size

3) The ammount of work (yeah, put reverb and other effects on each sound for each different indoor and other envioriment) usless, just to let a sample became decent.

HAAAA! I really dont want to talk much into that, but "a member" of BIS told me how it really looks like. The dude they had for sounds in A2 had no idea on how to use the softwares, they just put him in front of a PC and said "DO IT!". Believe me: When you say professional Studio by concerning sound topics, what the hell do you think why we still talk about a sound issue here, heh? :D See what I mean :P

LJ

Lol, nothing to say there, this thing let me feel just more disappointed...but anyway

Arma 2 was a different game and I guess they was not expecting as such sells , but then became DayZ.

Now Arma 3 is a different game, it's a game that surely will sells alot since became popular and easy to obtain thanks to Steam, and have twice potentials that arma 2 had.

It's disappointing provide a such outdated sound engine even if it's easy to mod.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Babylonjoke

[LordJarhead 1726]

Yes LJ, in fact you have created a masterpiece of mod, but in 1.7 GB...I mean.. 1.7 GB!

Quality has its price my friend. And you have to take some cons to get benefits ;) Also I didn't asked anyone to download it or anything, who thinks thats to much does not care enough about good sounds in my opinion. Or just has a different taste I cant please, thats it.

I wouldn't give a sh*t if the mod would be 5GB, I have it on my side and dont need to download it, hehe :)

How would it sounds like? Dunno, never tested it. I think with the right way to implement it would have sounded great. What ever filter techniques can create is fairly easy to archive in the old way either, but as you said, the files size would go up airborne. But the sound wouldn't be useless, its always a matter of recreation. Its like you say: What do we need another map? We have this one already, its awesome, any user map would be a waste of time. NO, thats not correct. We do talk about modding! No one is forced to do anything at all. And seriously, just because "what ever other" game has nice filter effects I wouldn't go yelling: "I dont mod anymore because ArmA does not have those filter effects, my time would be wasted if it could be so easy to have filter effects!".

Deeply I think this is what modding is all about: Having a game which is good but could be better in the eyes of the community and they start modding. Even the possibility of modding will create clever heads to work something out, always.

We can endless discuss this topic on what BIS should've done or what not, but thats the game we get in the end, and thats the game we have to work with. Everyone is free to go if he's not liking the materials BIS is providing.

I also read about BIS needs a new sound engine to keep up with other AAA Games. Well, sure, if thats what they want. I think, as soon as DayZ came in, the sells of ArmA exploded and BIS is now trying to sells their main product to this customer group. I think ArmA3 wont be that much of an success because of what ever facts, and BIS will realize that soon. Now everyone is jumping on the dayz/a3 train still and they'll realize that this is something else than shooting zombies^^

Plus the fact that BIS is creating a DayZ standalone that will (hopefully) separate the mens from the boys (hehe) and the rest that'll stay is hopefully MILSIM orientated! Because IN WANT MY ARMA BACK!

I thin about a slogan for an anti zombie campaign in these forums "I WANT MY ARMA BACK! ZOMBIES NEED TO STAY OUTSIDE" or what ever :P j/k

LJ