Taking the scroll menu to the chopping block

[CiberX15 1]

Brace yourselves, because what I am about to say is blasphemy. The scroll menu, it must die. It was bad in Arma 2, it is worse that it has survived into Arma 3. Hitting space to interact is rather unintuitive as it is, but having to scroll though a long list of options while under fire is downright clumsy.

The interaction menu is incredibly clunky and clumsy. When interacting with a car for example, I should be able to simply hit interact to get in and interact to get out. Quick, efficient, intuitive. I don’t have to spend a second to think about it. This becomes blatantly obvious when you are under fire and need to jump out of the vehicle and you have to sit there carefully scrolling though the passenger seat, the gunner seat, the turn off vehicle option, the get out button, till you finally reach the eject button and then have to hit interact again to confirm you purchase. Now the reason you wanted to eject in the first place was because you saw a soldier with an RPG standing in the middle of the road aiming at you. He only needs to left click.

What do I suggest? A context sensitive radial menu triggered by the interact key (usually mapped to spacebar). Tapping the spacebar would cause you to take the default action, getting in and out of a car, looting a body, open door. Holding the spacebar would bring up a radial menu, moving the mouse around you could quickly select up to eight additional options. Releasing the spacebar would then activate the command. This would allow players to quickly perform actions without confusion or clumsy mistakes, while still allowing for the plethora of additional commands that makes this game great. Again, this is just one possible solution, but I feel Arma needs to move past the scroll menu.

[DaRkL3AD3R 1]

Agree. Never liked it.

[Husker 1]

There are controls that let you eject/get out by hitting a key rather than scrolling through the menu.

If you'd known to look through your controls you'd know his and would've ejected in time before said RPG fired.

That being said I don't see how a radial menu if much different than the scroll menu.

[TG Marksman X 10]

Brace yourselves, because what I am about to say is blasphemy. The scroll menu, it must die. It was bad in Arma 2, it is worse that it has survived into Arma 3. Hitting space to interact is rather unintuitive as it is, but having to scroll though a long list of options while under fire is downright clumsy.

The interaction menu is incredibly clunky and clumsy. When interacting with a car for example, I should be able to simply hit interact to get in and interact to get out. Quick, efficient, intuitive. I don’t have to spend a second to think about it. This becomes blatantly obvious when you are under fire and need to jump out of the vehicle and you have to sit there carefully scrolling though the passenger seat, the gunner seat, the turn off vehicle option, the get out button, till you finally reach the eject button and then have to hit interact again to confirm you purchase. Now the reason you wanted to eject in the first place was because you saw a soldier with an RPG standing in the middle of the road aiming at you. He only needs to left click.

What do I suggest? A context sensitive radial menu triggered by the interact key (usually mapped to spacebar). Tapping the spacebar would cause you to take the default action, getting in and out of a car, looting a body, open door. Holding the spacebar would bring up a radial menu, moving the mouse around you could quickly select up to eight additional options. Releasing the spacebar would then activate the command. This would allow players to quickly perform actions without confusion or clumsy mistakes, while still allowing for the plethora of additional commands that makes this game great. Again, this is just one possible solution, but I feel Arma needs to move past the scroll menu.

You could try pressing the V key whilst in the car. Pretty sure it's the default get-out/eject key.

Some of you really need to look at the controls before wasting space by creating these threads.

Edit: Radial Menu's died in that other game. Leave them there.

[CiberX15 1]

Ok so there are keys that will do that, yes, but it is incredibly un-intuitive. Think about it. You hit space bar to get in the vehicle and then V to get out? There is no connection between those two options. Is there a separate key for walking on a diagonal on a Tuesday?

PS, just because one game screwed up radial menus doesn't mean they should be banned from a user interface designers tool box.

[Husker 1]

Ok so there are keys that will do that, yes, but it is incredibly un-intuitive. Think about it. You hit space bar to get in the vehicle and then V to get out? There is no connection between those two options. Is there a separate key for walking on a diagonal on a Tuesday?

PS, just because one game screwed up radial menus doesn't mean they should be banned from a user interface designers tool box.

First you explanation is that there is no way to get out of a vehicle other than the scroll menu.

Then when proven wrong your explanation is "There is no connection between those two options." What?

This is a video game where you press buttons to do things. Not a game of connect the dots.

But if that's really a problem for you, you could always change the keys to make them "connected".

[CiberX15 1]

First you explanation is that there is no way to get out of a vehicle other than the scroll menu.

Then when proven wrong your explanation is "There is no connection between those two options." What?

Oh for heavens sake, I get it, this is the veterans crush the noob on the forums game. You guys give the the rest of this community a bad name. That was what we call an EXAMPLE. surely you can think of more instances on your own where quick selection of an option is preferable to scrolling through a menu. Yes I can spend all day remapping keys to my hearts content, but if I wanted to do that I would go and fill out tax returns because that's more fun.

"There is no connection between those two options." What?

Think about it, its like opening a door by turning the handle, then turning around and attempting to open the door by turning the hinges. There is no logical connection between those two actions just as there is no logical connection between hitting spacebar to get in a vehicle and hitting V to get out. If I have to dig around in the controls for ten minutes then perhaps the control is poorly mapped in the first place?

I am asking for a clunky outdated system to be looked at for an overhaul. Don't be change-a-phobic.

Edited March 14, 2013 by CiberX15

[Husker 1]

Oh for heavens sake, I get it, this is the veterans crush the noob on the forums game. You guys give the the rest of this community a bad name. That was what we call an EXAMPLE. surely you can think of more instances on your own where quick selection of an option is preferable to scrolling through a menu. Yes I can spend all day remapping keys to my hearts content, but if I wanted to do that I would go and fill out tax returns because that's more fun.

Think about it, its like opening a door by turning the handle, then turning around and attempting to open the door by turning the hinges. There is no logical connection between those two actions just as there is no logical connection between hitting spacebar to get in a vehicle and hitting V to get out.

I am asking for a clunky outdated system to be looked at for an overhaul. Don't be change-a-phobic.

maybe you should go fill out those tax returns then.

[Gorbachev 1]

I'm with the OP 150%. Something I've been mulling over from the beginning. Everything we're currently able to do in game could be done without the scroll menu. I didn't want to be the one to propose the idea unless I had a thorough and convincing argument written out. I feel bad for you OP but don't let them get you down.

But let's look at this from a realism and what is currently KNOWN to be possible stand point.

Instead of a scroll menu entry for detonating a claymore, have a usable item triggered by the fire button like a REMOTE. Seriously, how does the player character currently detonate a claymore? Telekinesis?

Opening doors would be done with whatever the action button currently is (space), but only when you are looking at the door. This is proven possible by Take On Helicopters in the cockpit.

How many times have you been around 2 or 3 doors and you're hitting the action button and looking at a door do nothing, only to realise the door beside you is opening and closing like there's a damn poltergeist. Have ONLY whatever is under the crosshair be interactable, rather than these invisible bounding boxes the player enters adding an entry into the scroll menu.

In all seriousness, the scroll menu is archaic and clunky to say the least. Let's make this a modern game for crying out loud. Shaders and hi res textures aren't the only thing that define a modern game.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Gorbachev

[Husker 1]

Think about it, its like opening a door by turning the handle, then turning around and attempting to open the door by turning the hinges. There is no logical connection between those two actions just as there is no logical connection between hitting spacebar to get in a vehicle and hitting V to get out. If I have to dig around in the controls for ten minutes then perhaps the control is poorly mapped in the first place?

All you have to do to open a door is look at it and hit space, you don't even have to use the scroll wheel, there are various instances where all it takes is a tap of the spacebar, no scrolling etcetcetc.

I don't understand your analogy. How do you even turn a hinge?

If it takes you 10 minutes to find a mapped control, I think you need to get your eyes checked, or maybe you're just reading at a 1st grade level.

For what it's worth i see a radial menu being even more clunky.. hold space, move mouse to selection, mouse detects wrong axis, can't get mouse to select correct selection, let go of space, load blanks into my gun instead of STANAG, die.

Or, hold space to select something, in the heat of combat, don't check to see if selection is checked just assume, let go of space, take out pistol, flanked, die.

Now if your idea was voice commands, that might be actually be worth a discussion.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Husker

[CiberX15 1]

I feel bad for you OP but don't let them get you down.

Meh, I wouldn't post here if I didn't expect opposition. Don't throw the first snowball if you don't want to get hit. Besides it makes excellent debate practice ; )

All you have to do to open a door is look at it and hit space,

I meant in real life.

I don't understand your analogy. How do you even turn a hinge?

You cant, I was being a twit ; )

[gabe_ruckus 5]

I'm not phobic to change, but the current system is more flexible than a radial menu, and you can use the "addaction" command to make almost anything happen with player interaction and some scripting.

[Maj. Gastovski 7]

I'm completely fine and quite used to the scroll menu, besides that - each of those actions have dedicated keys as well. You can always remap your controls, an option we all individually have here. It really couldn't be any simpler than that.

[RuecanOnRails 10]

I honestly don't think this could work. there are simply far too many options that can and need to be accessed from the context sensitive mouse scroll.

I think what would work for YOU would to have all the context sensitive options listed in the controls but not bound to anything. This would allow you to customize your key bindings anyway you like. Currently most of the options you're referring to can bound to a key such as the get in get out/eject. Having the ability to bind any specific action to a key would allow you to bind the most used keys to a few different options easily accessible without the need of scrolling your mouse wheel.

The current method is very intuitive, clunky maybe, but the context sensitive menu that allows you to access any and all actions available with a simple scroll would save more time than trying to bind every action to a different key.

As for using a radial selection... that would break the game for me. How would you select a radial option? Using the mouse to move the pointer over to it? that's great except I can use the scroll wheel AND turn around at the same time.

[CiberX15 1]

In all seriousness, the scroll menu is archaic and clunky to say the least. Let's make this a modern game for crying out loud. Shaders and hi res textures aren't the only thing that define a modern game.

Can I hear a hallelujah! X )

[Gorbachev 1]

Can I hear a hallelujah! X )

Holy hell this thread is on fire.

But again, I say do away with all scroll/radial menus for interacting with the world. Completely unnecessary and removes no functionality. Frees up even more keys and mouse buttons for more gameplay oriented things.

It's like using an operating system within a modern military simulator. I've been following Bohemia since OPF but it's time to make this leap. It'll only sting briefly to remove this band-aid.

It's a shame this is going to get rained on with the feces of 90% of the community out of an inane and debilitating fear of change.

[CiberX15 1]

I'm not phobic to change, but the current system is more flexible than a radial menu, and you can use the "addaction" command to make almost anything happen with player interaction and some scripting.

I get that, and maybe the radial menu is not the way to go, but at least it is a possible solution. Care to offer one you think might work?

I'm completely fine and quite used to the scroll menu

But how long have you been playing ArmA? You can certainly get used the the controls, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to improve them.

You can always remap your controls, an option we all individually have here. It really couldn't be any simpler than that.

Yes yes yes, I know I can remap the controls. But the problem that the scroll menu was put in to fix doesn't go away. The scroll menu DID put a lot of controls at the players fingertips, albeit in a very clunky clumsy way. I am making a SUGGESTION as to how that system might be improved upon.

[RuecanOnRails 10]

Gorbachev, Have you actually played the core Arma games? I don't know about you but I find myself using that scroll wheel a lot. Thinking about not having it not only makes me scared to know how I would play the game... How would I use my radio while running and looking around?

[Gorbachev 1]

I explicitly stated I've been playing since OPF released in 2001 but to answer your question, I don't consider the radio a part of the action/scroll menu.

Personally I think that needs ground up redesigned as well but that's a case for another thread at another time.

[CiberX15 1]

But again, I say do away with all scroll/radial menus for interacting with the world. Completely unnecessary and removes no functionality. Frees up even more keys and mouse buttons for more gameplay oriented things.

See I still feel you need something. As I said above the scroll menu did serve an important function. Once players become more experienced they will most certainly start mapping keys out to their preferences, but until then there should be some functionality to bridge the gap. Whether a radial menu fills that gap? I have no idea.

---------- Post added at 00:59 ---------- Previous post was at 00:55 ----------

Personally I think that needs ground up redesigned as well but that's a case for another thread at another time.

That's sort of how I feel about all of ArmA's controls, I was hoping that was one of the major things they were working on in this release. But hey, this is alpha, there is still more than enough time to fix it.

[Gorbachev 1]

See I still feel you need something. As I said above the scroll menu did serve an important function. Once players become more experienced they will most certainly start mapping keys out to their preferences, but until then there should be some functionality to bridge the gap. Whether a radial menu fills that gap? I have no idea.

In any case, I think anyone can agree that it needs to be looked at. I wouldn't want it removed unless BI were serious about doing it right.

[Husker 1]

I really see no better way then the scroll menu. Radial menu seems way more clunky and a set up for disaster. Voice Commands would be something to look into to have alongside the scroll menu possibly, but I'd probably still use the scroll menu.

[Gorbachev 1]

How Husker? Anything interact-able in the world only needs ONE interaction key. Whether that be E, Space, F or whatever you want. You look at an object and interact with it instead of the current standing near object, scroll through [RELOAD], [Get in Driver], [Rearm at dead teamleader laying by Vehicle] just to realise you're not standing in the EXACT SPOT you need to be standing in just to climb a stupid ladder. How about LOOK at the ladder and press corresponding key. This would remove that terrible anxiety as you're frantically scrolling through an archaic menu just to do an otherwise simple action to evade the enemy/grenade/rabid dog. It's mind-blowingly bad in an otherwise brilliant game. I will stand by ArmA regardless, but it could be better.

[Husker 1]

How Husker? Anything interact-able in the world only needs ONE interaction key. Whether that be E, Space, F or whatever you want. You look at an object and interact with it instead of the current standing near object, scroll through [RELOAD], [Get in Driver], [Rearm at dead teamleader laying by Vehicle] just to realise you're not standing in the EXACT SPOT you need to be standing in just to climb a stupid ladder. How about LOOK at the ladder and press corresponding key. This would remove that terrible anxiety as you're frantically scrolling through an archaic menu just to do an otherwise simple action to evade the enemy/grenade/rabid dog. It's mind-blowingly bad in an otherwise brilliant game. I will stand by ArmA regardless, but it could be better.

Alot of things have multiple actions when you look at them.

Plane - Flaps, landing Gear, but these also have key binds

Helo - Pilot, Co-Pilot, Ride in back, Gear

Vehicles - Driver, Ride in back, Gear

Dead Bodies - Rearm at Dead teamleader only rearms what you already have, Gear to open gear, sometimes weapons have to be picked up seperately now from the body, open bag

You can also look through a teamamtes bag while he's alive

So no ONE interaction key would not cut it, that's why we have the scroll menu in the first place.

[Maj. Gastovski 7]

But how long have you been playing ArmA? You can certainly get used the the controls, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to improve them.

It also doesn't mean we have to adhere to the personal preferences of others. You're driving down the middle of a two-way street.

Yes yes yes, I know I can remap the controls. But the problem that the scroll menu was put in to fix doesn't go away. The scroll menu DID put a lot of controls at the players fingertips, albeit in a very clunky clumsy way. I am making a SUGGESTION as to how that system might be improved upon.

Your capitalization of the word suggestion doesn't convince me of your genuinity. Reading your posts chronologically simply reveals that you had a potential moment within the game where you were only limited by your lack of knowledge of the game's customizable control options. You've been told that not only can you already achieve what you originally claimed about below...

The interaction menu is incredibly clunky and clumsy. When interacting with a car for example, I should be able to simply hit interact to get in and interact to get out. Quick, efficient, intuitive. I don’t have to spend a second to think about it.

... but that you can also further reiterate your control scheme to match your personal preferences without having to use the scroll menu option at all. All these actions have an alternate context sensitive key dedicated to them which you can also remap. Don't open a SUGGESTION thread than brush off logical replies.