Balancing?

[Masharra 10]

I still think its more likely that the configs for similar weapons were simply copy-pasted (copy-pasting is the preferred method for endless config entries :)) and now the tweaking begins.

Yeah? how can you tell? You are not BIS and please don't speak as if you know the reasons behind their actions. Given that the change was made after the feedback here there's a good reason to believe it had effect.

DMarwick is actually right :icon_twisted:

I cant really think up anything else when he said " DMARWICK IS ACTUALLY RIGHT" when DMARWICK SAID "I still think its more likely that the configs for similar weapons were simply copy-pasted (copy-pasting is the preferred method for endless config entries :)) and now the tweaking begins."

Then again:After all the earlier talk about 'Task Force Balance' maybe someone thought it would have been a waste of time to say this because the complainers wouldn't believe 'im anyway because they were already predisposed to worst-case-scenario thinking? ;)

MY sentence can easily be changed and quite honestly if that is the way they think then they probably deserve the mania that they get. I understand they arent pr people. Heck I played STO since day one, I know shitty communication but alas STO is consistent with its shit.

Inconsistency is even worse than not talking at all. One one thread you have dna explaining in detail something, next DD getting some great feedback like a wizard, the next some shit about cats, next a one liner boosting the ego of a "fanboy". Meh I suppose I shouldnt complain... they are talking.

Food for thought

The rocket launcher values were different before. Why change them to the same? Perhaps a mistake when copypasta a large amount of work, who knows.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Masharra

[pettka 694]

I cant really think up anything else when he said " DMARWICK IS ACTUALLY RIGHT" when DMARWICK SAID "I still think its more likely that the configs for similar weapons were simply copy-pasted (copy-pasting is the preferred method for endless config entries :)) and now the tweaking begins."

MY sentence can easily be changed and quite honestly if that is the way they think then they probably deserve the mania that they get.

To express myself clearly, I agree with DMarwick who said

This happened only in your own mind.

[Smurf 12]

That means that feedback is useless. You can't win.

[bad benson 1733]

well if this is now down to "who can guess what pettka was really saying", here's my take on it.

these are the statements that got quoted by the next person in this line and responded to:

-Coulum-:

Well the GM6 has had its speeds tweaked. Maybe we just need to be more patient.

metalcraze:

It was tweaked because of people in this thread. Remember the issue was closed and refused to be fixed in the first place with "balance" as an excuse. If we would've been silent, it would just disappear under hundreds of other issues at FT.

DMarkwick:

This happened only in your own mind.

Variable:

Yeah? how can you tell? You are not BIS and please don't speak as if you know the reasons behind their actions. Given that the change was made after the feedback here there's a good reason to believe it had effect.

pettka:

DMarwick is actually right

possible conclusions:

1. it was about "reverting" the GM6 changes and what caused it.

2. "someone" needs to work on their communication skills and it was actually about something else hidden in the last pages.

what do i win, if i'm right?

EDIT: damn! too slow...i still win though

Edited June 27, 2013 by Bad Benson

[Masharra 10]

To express myself clearly, I agree with DMarwick who said

ah my apologies on the confusion then.

Unfortunately that also means that the assumption that the values were for copypasting is false thus no ground has been gained also

I see what you did there Smurf :D

Its like BIS is the smoking man.

And we are Mulder spitting in the wind guessing why certain changes are being made.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Masharra

[Alwarren 2767]

That means that feedback is useless. You can't win.

It's getting rather frustrating since nobody can tell whether their feedback is actually considered or not. Many of the things that happen seem totally random (like different launchers suddenly becoming identical copies of each other), issues being rejected as being "for balancing reasons" and then getting fixed anyway...

I think there is a distinctive problem here, and that's the lack of backwards communication. If you look at the "Known Issues" page for example, I cannot help but wonder why issues are actually shown there. For example, the user interface section doesn't say anything about the missing buttons for loadout/inventory during mission briefing, which for a campaign like Resistance would be a major dealbreaker. We don't know whether this will ever get fixed or not. The top issue in the "Design" section is that fish do not react to players.

The Sitreps don't provide any feedback on these issues either.

For us, the users, it creates an atmosphere where users feel ignored and confused, and changes appear completely random. All of these issues could be avoided, at least partially, by communication. This is not helped by short one-liner replies either.

[chortles 263]

In for some reason, especially starting with the Steamworks announcement, that's only made me root for BI more...

Heck I played STO since day one, I know shitty communication but alas STO is consistent with its shit.

Incorrect, STO was just consistently shit (even with Gozer gone).

Food for thought

The rocket launcher values were different before. Why change them to the same? Perhaps a mistake when copypasta a large amount of work, who knows.

See, this is where I differentiate between people with worst-case-scenario thinking -- you've allowed for the real possibility of a simple mistake, and I've already seen pettka admit that there was a mistake with today's dev build this morning, ETA for a fix should be tomorrow hopefully (not all helicopters supported eject/paradrop as claimed in today's changelog), so I'm perfectly willing to believe that copypasta mistakes can/do happen (though I really hope that someone at BI kept a backup of what was copied-over somewhere) and I'm glad to see that you're allowing for that too instead of going all sky-is-falling like others had.

That means that feedback is useless. You can't win.

Where is that "OH... SNAP!" GIF when I need it...

*then sees the emoticon* I see what you did there... well played.

Its like BIS is the smoking man.

So that means that BI will be whatever they damn well want to be? No wonder they went 2035 and underwater! :lol:

[Masharra 10]

See, this is where I differentiate between people with worst-case-scenario thinking -- you've allowed for the real possibility of a simple mistake, and I've already seen pettka admit that there was a mistake with today's dev build this morning, ETA for a fix should be tomorrow hopefully (not all helicopters supported eject/paradrop as claimed in today's changelog), so I'm perfectly willing to believe that copypasta mistakes can/do happen (though I really hope that someone at BI kept a backup of what was copied-over somewhere) and I'm glad to see that you're allowing for that too instead of going all sky-is-falling like others had.

Thats sort of what I mean with the inconsistency. I also saw that. He can say wups there but we have this issue here and silence. Its like hmmm thats odd. Mistake? Then why are they keeping quiet? Now I can accept there are a lot of maybes but I feel as if they create most of the maybe's. Its like watching a guy bump into someone he apologises and says it was a mistake and then he bumps into you and stares at you silently. It sorta feels like the communication up to and during the release of Colonial Marines aka shite in space.

Agreed on the STO thats why I have a lifetime account. Want to buy? only 350usd.

[bad benson 1733]

i think we should keep up the nerd rage though, as long as we concentrate on certain parts of the game and don't drift into too much discussion about BI. this is about arma the game and what we think would make it better. the only thing the occasional mysterious dev posts show is that they are reading the stuff. that's enough for me. what goes on in there heads and leads to decisions we have no influence on anyways.

let's just keep up the shitstorms about features and stuff. loud isn't always bad, if there's some content in there and a realistic possibility for a change, then it deserves to be heard. i mean pettka is the "config-guy" not the PR-guy. let's treat him accordingly. his job isn't to make satisfying public statements. his job is to make splendid configs;)

[metalcraze 290]

Food for thought

The rocket launcher values were different before. Why change them to the same? Perhaps a mistake when copypasta a large amount of work, who knows.

Beta changelog?

RPG-32 and NLAW should be of the same usability

It's interesting that people who defend wrong BIS decisions the most - never actually follow changes and news.

This happened only in your own mind.

Of course it did

Edited June 27, 2013 by metalcraze

[Anachoretes 10]

It seems to me, or the game's success is based on GM6 lynx suddenly.

What is the point in feedback tracker, if everyone starts to agitate their tickets. What if there are people who are trying to build a schedule based on human resources, goals and time. Let's wait for the cake and then we'll dig into the cherries.

[instagoat 133]

So many strawmen and red herrings in this thread.

For example, re the AI. BI never promised any major improvements. From the start they said that the AI would only be tweaked and adjusted to make basic features work. I had devs telling me this in person at GC, even.

As for the missiles, the fact that the RPG and NLAW are the same is irrelevant to me, because they are not properly simulated anyways. The lock on system for the Titan is also mega simplicistic. The Armor system is still the same as in OFP. Bodyarmour is just a mathematical modifier to the damage dealt, rather than properly simulated. The health kits are still insta-healing. Okay, so much for the bad, now what´s actually good. Because judging by this thread, we are headed for an OF:DR style ship-to-iceberg event.

Improved AI values: On my rig, they use Handgrenades now, and do so competently. They are more reliable in finding cover (Far from perfect still, but a visible improvement.). They are not uber-precise anymore, but are still threatening enough to make you consider taking cover. Vehicles with TI will now spot you and kill you. They suppress more liberally, and maneuver aggressively. Granted, they still charge into enemy fire without consideration, do not cover each other or gather AT launchers from bodies when tanks show up, but by now I´ve given up on them ever gaining those skills natively.

Gear system and Weapon attachments. Building PMCs or Guerillias is not a matter of making completely new Units anymore. Need some kind of rebel fighter? Custom build em! The clothes in fact are best sorted right now, because any new Uniform can be thrown onto any Unit in the Editor, ditto for vests and headgear and the like. The problem is weapons attachments, which still have not been sorted out, so weapons will probably fall way short in moddabillity terms at release day. The weight system is still in, albeit it seems a bit castrated, but weighing yourself down with tons of kit will exhaust you quickly. Once protection is in, these things will become even more important.

New movement system. If you look at the sheer amount of animations and animation states in the config editor or the animation viewer, you can understand what a humongous task it was and is to get this working. And the AI can use the basic functionalities of the movement system as well as they could before, and if it´s not a step back we can at least say it´s not gotten worse. The movement system is fantastic: you can move in combat fluidly, exploit cover, and be more effective in general. Plus, it does not feel like you´re a sedated sloth with its pants full of bricks on a skateboard anymore when moving.

New lighting and atmospherics. Big improvement, and about as good as it gets. No other game simulates dynamic worlds on this scale, with such dynamic light situations as this. No pre-baked shadow maps here, sir. The clouds are a massive improvement too, whoever suggested that they were a simple copypaste needs to go ingame and look up. In Arma 2, the clouds are the same 2D maps pasted in three layers onto the sky. Which always move east, and only east, at the same speed, no matter the weather conditions. Everyone who has flown one of the Arma 2 jets in TKOH, on the east asia map knows what a huge effect these clouds can have towards improving the visuals. Now we also have properly done fog. And, troubling as it may be for some, but games sell on their visuals, not the correct amount of buttonpresses to lock a missile.

Sound system: Actually, right now, I do not like this very much. While the actual sounds for the guns are good, the explosions are lackluster or downright boring, and the distance filtering makes everything sound as if it is blaring out of a set of cheap loudspeakers. A lot of tweaking will be necessary to get this right, but I think the Idea has a lot of potential. It just needs to be tweaked right: again, manpower and time.

Bullet penetration has also been improved (idk if you noticed). Normal bullets get stopped by the doors of the pickup, for example, while 7.62 and the sniper rifle rounds will go straight through. Even soldiers do not offer hard cover anymore as they did before. I have once had a single .50 bullet from the GM6 kill three soldiers standing behind each other in a row in a test I did. I think one reason for the lack of brand new features or work intensive features at this point is that they need to make sure all their assets are functional in this regard, especially since the penetration modelling was touted as a feature at the first and second rounds of E3 conferences (not this time, though, afaik).

Now, the setting itself remains problematic, because there still is a lot of unhappiness in the community because the core content of the game doesn´t appeal to the fans of the 20th century type of cold war setting. The only thing really that could draw these people, if the core game does not, is the promise of large scale and comparatively easy modding.

And for people like me, who do not like content altering mods, a functional native game is massively important. I am starting to get worried that BI is trying to take too big of a bite again, but only time will tell.

In the meantime, people should advertise this problem so it gets fixed, otherwise weapon mods will have a bad time: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=2766

[Alwarren 2767]

As for the missiles, the fact that the RPG and NLAW are the same is irrelevant to me

I think the keywords here are "to me". Other people, other priorities. Calling them "strawmen" and "red herrings" for having a different opinion just proves inability to discuss.

[HKFlash 9]

For example, re the AI. BI never promised any major improvements. From the start they said that the AI would only be tweaked and adjusted to make basic features work. I had devs telling me this in person at GC, even.

Yes yet people continue to forget about this fact, . Sure it is frustrating to be one shot killed (like I've been multiple times) or have the AI character go through a wall but hopefully this will be tweaked before release.

As for the missiles, the fact that the RPG and NLAW are the same is irrelevant to me, because they are not properly simulated anyways. The lock on system for the Titan is also mega simplicistic. The Armor system is still the same as in OFP. Bodyarmour is just a mathematical modifier to the damage dealt, rather than properly simulated. The health kits are still insta-healing. Okay, so much for the bad, now what´s actually good. Because judging by this thread, we are headed for an OF: DR style ship-to-iceberg event.

I disagree here. In fact, I would like each faction to have unique weapons and equipment, from the NVGoogles to the simple Compass (hey one can dream). Different turrets for different vehicles with different thermal optics for example. I mean look at the SDV for example: all factions have it yet the only difference between them is the cammo pattern? Come on! Also after 12 years we still have non-reloadable rocket launchers actually reloadable!

[cpl_hicks 2]

Just to add my two cents, I am very concerned with this "balancing" talk as well.

Being that this is a SIM, balancing should only be done at the mission/scenario level NOT at the physics/characteristics level.

Vehicles and and weapons should act as close to real life as reasonably possible end of story.

Adjust the story and or the scenario/circumstance of the map by using creativity but for goodness sakes don't compromise physics/characteristics!

Lets face it, it's cheaper and faster to minimize and/or neglect research and implementation of hardcore simulation aspects of any game.

So many times I have read about X company deciding to make games more "accessible" to the public by softening the harsh realism.

Why not simply add it as an option/setting? answer= more time and money (I suspect)

Am I accusing BI of this? Certainly not, but I am sure the pressure is there and one way of justifying it is the term, "balancing"............................

[chortles 263]

Thats sort of what I mean with the inconsistency. I also saw that. He can say wups there but we have this issue here and silence. Its like hmmm thats odd. Mistake? Then why are they keeping quiet? Now I can accept there are a lot of maybes but I feel as if they create most of the maybe's. Its like watching a guy bump into someone he apologises and says it was a mistake and then he bumps into you and stares at you silently.

A better analogy would be for someone else to be the blank-staring one with both working for the same company.

Agreed on the STO thats why I have a lifetime account. Want to buy? only 350usd.

Unfortunately I lifetimed soon after launch myself.

[instagoat 133]

I think the keywords here are "to me". Other people, other priorities. Calling them "strawmen" and "red herrings" for having a different opinion just proves inability to discuss.

You got me there. I was not specifically talking about saying that the RPG and NLAW aren´t done okay now. I was rather pointing towards the abundance of pessimism. I´ve got to admit that I am not happy about many of these things myself, and possibly I am trying to just hang on to the "good side" for the sake of it. Also, I am saying that they are irrelevant because missiles and armour penetration in general are not modelled correctly anyways. So I do think the argument stands: without proper simulation of the true differences between these systems (Handling, true Armor penetration, single-use launchers with detachable optics, etc.) it doesn´t matter that the NLAW and the RPG-42 are the same by stats. Putting in a difference for mere feel is maybe a good approximation, but I like to think that BI can reach higher standards than approximations by now. That does not mean that I do not care about the NLAW and RPG being modelled realistically from a personal and realism point of view, because I do. I just think it´s not worth the effort of putting in the mentioned approximations using an inherently unrealistic and overly simplified system.

And overall, what I find most frustrating about this is that BI again tried to do too much, and now they´re really starting to cut corners. We have gotten a ton of improvements so far, though, and I do hope that the problems will not take the edge off of that.

We have been promised hard-kill defensive system (Trophy, for example) at the last two games convention rounds. This time, no word. And considering how the (rather simple) armor system has not been changed, or the tab-lock system, or in fact the overly simple target aquisition for shoulder launched missiles, I am somewhat dreading to see what this kinda system would look like when done similarily simplicistic.

Again, it comes down to how quickly and easily you can make changes to the engine. What a quick pipeline can do for you is shown by looking at OF:Red River. They whipped out a complete game in less than a year. Obviously they didn´t try to do half as much as BI, but I have the faint suspicion that a lot of the cutbacks come from the fact that we´re basically looking at a complete game, that has been adapted and added up upon over the course of more than ten years and no less than five iterations (not counting A3 and the DLCs). This is a behemoth, where there has partially been no oversight prior to the start of the development of the game (re the AI).

"Balancing" really just means in this context to make the assets work to where the game is fun. The sheer amount of new detail features, inventory, movement, PP, weather, Islands and Missions has taken up so much time and space that I´m thinking that if we´ll ever see the hard and heavy features the community desires ingame, it will be with an OA style addon.

[Morrow 1]

I think you guys are going the wrong way with "How balance meats realism". I would take a look at Rising storm, the Americans have an M2A1-7 Flamethrower so how does this get balanced? Well the Japs get a special weapon also, the "Knee" Mortar. So all i'm saying is maybe instead of looking at gun stats look at the guns themselves?

[cpl_hicks 2]

"Balancing" really just means in this context to make the assets work to where the game is fun. The sheer amount of new detail features, inventory, movement, PP, weather, Islands and Missions has taken up so much time and space that I´m thinking that if we´ll ever see the hard and heavy features the community desires ingame, it will be with an OA style addon.

I agree, but I think focusing accuracy and realism is what makes a sim fun. What's more fun rolling down a hill in unrealistic cartoony car or in a realistic damage prone car that makes you feel like it really would happen that way if you were there but without getting hurt irl.

Just saying

Edited June 27, 2013 by CPL_HICKS

[HKFlash 9]

This is a behemoth, where there has partially been no oversight prior to the start of the development of the game (re the AI).

A behemoth so huge there's always work to be done to the point that if Bohemia wants they can continue the series for years to come.

[Anachoretes 10]

and now they´re really starting to cut corners.

But it's correct. Since modders easier to build corners of the finished basement with walls. Rather than trying to build something sane from scratch. So happened that ArmA is a tandem between builders and interior designers.

Just someone needs a little ease their whims and restore dialogue with developers to normal. Although I think someone wants to political battles, not the military.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Anachoretes

[chortles 263]

And overall, what I find most frustrating about this is that BI again tried to do too much, and now they´re really starting to cut corners.

Realistically speaking, this should have been seen coming as early as last year with both all the verbal rolling back/retractions (even before the Greek incident and the change in project leads) and BI's "overambitiousness" habit that even Maruk talked about (i.e. re: "Game 2").

[TSAndrey 1]

Is this a joke? I mean, seriously BIS? Isn't it sad that pistols in games like Battlefield are more realistic than in Arma? I thought this was a realistic game....

Why are pistols so awfully underpowered?!

[sqb-sma 66]

Is this a joke? I mean, seriously BIS? Isn't it sad that pistols in games like Battlefield are more realistic than in Arma? I thought this was a realistic game....

Why are pistols so awfully underpowered?!

<br>

;)

That's absolutely ridiculous, a pistol round to the head should kill somebody, and if you're balancing it so that that's not the case... you're doing it wrong.

[Anachoretes 10]

Isn't it sad that pistols in games like Battlefield are more realistic than in Arma?

1. Because you can make headshot from 200m in jump? Or few simple parameters representing damage? Do you make are ticket?

2. Would you explain why you showing video from Wasteland?

3. Can you go to the editor and look how pistol is actually work. Before starting the new debate.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Anachoretes