Balancing?

[chortles 263]

With the SBR they definitely seemed to state "wrong name" in the sense of the description, but the real-world weapon does have half an inch more barrel length (or one and a half inches more depending on model) than a "standard dimensions" M1911A1 ("standard dimensions" here meaning "with a five inch barrel"). The thing is that we don't have a .45 ACP pistol from BI to compare against.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Chortles

[-Coulum- 35]

Well the GM6 has had its speeds tweaked. Maybe we just need to be more patient. Its alright to point out problms but maybe accusing BI of doing this or that should be held off until they are actually finished. (Would be nice if they could communicate a bit better if things are still WIP or complete though)

[Varanon 892]

Its alright to point out problms but maybe accusing BI of doing this or that should be held off until they are actually finished.

Problem with staying silent until it's finished is that if it's done, it's done. The alpha/beta is for feedback (can't stress that enough), and that includes criticism as well as praises. Of course, any criticism has to stay civil, but what good is a feedback phase if you stay silent and complain after things are done ?

(Would be nice if they could communicate a bit better if things are still WIP or complete though)

Fully agree to that!

[metalcraze 290]

I just verified one of the changelog items: on dev branch the GM6 Lynx rate of fire is noticeably faster than before and faster than the (current) M320 LRR rate of fire, and it's now distinctly not-a-mirror.

Yes because people complained for many weeks.

Also, for the thread that was locked re: the ACP-C2, both the Vermin SBR and ACP-C2 using 9 mm were marked as known issues

Also because people started to complain.

However the good solution will be not to ruin the game with "balance" in the first place so instead of us complaining here about stuff being broken on purpose we can spend our posting time on a lot more useful suggestions on how to improve the rest of the game.

But it's kinda hard when one patch sets one thing right and "balances" another.

Well the GM6 has had its speeds tweaked. Maybe we just need to be more patient. Its alright to point out problms but maybe accusing BI of doing this or that should be held off until they are actually finished

Hell no. It was tweaked because of people in this thread. Remember the issue was closed and refused to be fixed in the first place with "balance" as an excuse. If we would've been silent, it would just disappear under hundreds of other issues at FT.

Do you really think they've mirrored RPG32 and NLAW as a "WIP" change? Why waste time if you can just type in RL values and be done with it with zero complaints.

Edited June 26, 2013 by metalcraze

[-Coulum- 35]

Problem with staying silent until it's finished is that if it's done, it's done. The alpha/beta is for feedback (can't stress that enough), and that includes criticism as well as praises. Of course, any criticism has to stay civil, but what good is a feedback phase if you stay silent and complain after things are done ?

Hell no. It was tweaked because of people in this thread. Remember the issue was closed and refused to be fixed in the first place with "balance" as an excuse. If we would've been silent, it would just disappear under hundreds of other issues at FT.

Do you really think they've mirrored RPG32 and NLAW as a "WIP" change? Why waste time if you can just type in RL values and be done with it with zero complaints.

You guys misunderstand what I meant. Don't stop giving feed back and fighting for what you want, just don't be so quick to say "BIS YOU BACKSTABBING BACKSTABERS YOU BETRAYED TEH COMMUNITY!". That's all.

Fully agree to that!

Yeah I think alot of unproductive discussion and hysterics could be avoided if devs just communicated their intent and progress more. Their better than most, but I am also participating in the Insurgency alpha (came out around the same time as a3 alpha) and I have to say that the dev communication is many times better and you can really see how it benefits. But I think that BIS devs may be a bit hesitant because communication sometimes involves bad news and we seem to be very bad at handling that.

[Varanon 892]

"BIS YOU BACKSTABBING BACKSTABERS YOU BETRAYED TEH COMMUNITY!".

I never called them that, and I haven't seen a lot of people actually do that. Sometimes discussions get heated, but it also shows how much everyone here cares about their favorite game.

Yeah I think alot of unproductive discussion and hysterics could be avoided if devs just communicated their intent and progress more. Their better than most, but I am also participating in the Insurgency alpha (came out around the same time as a3 alpha) and I have to say that the dev communication is many times better and you can really see how it benefits. But I think that BIS devs may be a bit hesitant because communication sometimes involves bad news and we seem to be very bad at handling that.

Indeed. We usually don't know if we try to run in open doors, or steel enforced concrete walls.

[-Coulum- 35]

I never called them that, and I haven't seen a lot of people actually do that. Sometimes discussions get heated, but it also shows how much everyone here cares about their favorite game.

Not saying you or anyone for that matter said that. But I sure know I was thinking it.

We usually don't know if we try to run in open doors, or steel enforced concrete walls.

I think I got the meaning of that anology... Then again maybe not.

[chortles 263]

I never called them that, and I haven't seen a lot of people actually do that. Sometimes discussions get heated, but it also shows how much everyone here cares about their favorite game.

Puh-lease, that sentiment was one of the first things I saw in this thread, was reeking of "devs can do no right".

But I think that BIS devs may be a bit hesitant because communication sometimes involves bad news and we seem to be very bad at handling that.

This is exactly what it feels like.

[dmarkwick 261]

It was tweaked because of people in this thread. Remember the issue was closed and refused to be fixed in the first place with "balance" as an excuse. If we would've been silent, it would just disappear under hundreds of other issues at FT.

This happened only in your own mind.

Do you really think they've mirrored RPG32 and NLAW as a "WIP" change? Why waste time if you can just type in RL values and be done with it with zero complaints.

I still think its more likely that the configs for similar weapons were simply copy-pasted (copy-pasting is the preferred method for endless config entries :)) and now the tweaking begins.

[Varanon 892]

Puh-lease, that sentiment was one of the first things I saw in this thread, was reeking of "devs can do no right".

Which part of "not a lot" didn't you get ?

[Variable 322]

But I think that BIS devs may be a bit hesitant because communication sometimes involves bad news and we seem to be very bad at handling that.

That's dramatizing. All the critique that was placed here was valid and legit.

This happened only in your own mind.

Yeah? how can you tell? You are not BIS and please don't speak as if you know the reasons behind their actions. Given that the change was made after the feedback here there's a good reason to believe it had effect.

[dmarkwick 261]

Yeah? how can you tell? You are not BIS and please don't speak as if you know the reasons behind their actions. Given that the change was made after the feedback here there's a good reason to believe it had effect.

I presume by your lack of a similar rebuke to metalcraze that you have absolutely no problem at all with him speaking on BIS behalf.

"A good reason"? Sounds like my reason was every bit as "good", therefore it MUST be the case. Somehow. But, you know, some people like to assume the worst motives.

Edited June 27, 2013 by DMarkwick

[Masharra 10]

But I think that BIS devs may be a bit hesitant because communication sometimes involves bad news and we seem to be very bad at handling that.

Then they need to pull up their big girl panties and stop trying to be nice to everyone. see steam announcement.

If they are aiming for the big time they better start growing thick skin.

They are part of a multimillion dollar company. They do not need white nights so much as competent public speakers. Who I would like to think they have as I have seen gems unfortunately those gems are rarer than Mario getting some from Peach.

[pettka 694]

Yeah? how can you tell? You are not BIS and please don't speak as if you know the reasons behind their actions. Given that the change was made after the feedback here there's a good reason to believe it had effect.

DMarwick is actually right :icon_twisted:

[chortles 263]

DMarwick is actually right :icon_twisted:

About what?

If it helps, again and as was noted earlier in this thread, so much of the confusion and readiness to resort to worst-case-scenario thinking comes from lack of clarity/official information as to what's known-placeholder-that's-obviously-not-intentional-but-hey-it's-there-because-we-wanted-this-released-more-than-we-wanted-it-right and what's WIP-but-intentional (i.e. "going in the intended direction", i.e. how RiE described grenades to GameSpot earlier this year soon after public alpha release).

[Varanon 892]

If it helps, again and as was noted earlier in this thread, so much of the confusion and readiness to resort to worst-case-scenario thinking comes from lack of clarity/official information as to what's known-placeholder-that's-obviously-not-intentional-but-hey-it's-there-because-we-wanted-this-released-more-than-we-wanted-it-right and what's WIP-but-intentional (i.e. "going in the intended direction", i.e. how RiE described grenades to GameSpot earlier this year soon after public alpha release).

For once, I 100 % agree with what you say

[Alwarren 2767]

It all bolis down to lack of communication then? 38 pages of complains and discussions could be dismissed with a simple statement like "We've just copy-pasted the stuff and will tweak values later". If that is the case, why didn't you say that on page 2?

[Masharra 10]

DMarwick is actually right :icon_twisted:

Notably not a gem. My preferred response "Sorry for the confusion guys! To speed up some menial things we are copy pasting a lot. While you shouldnt hesitate to point them out (incase we miss them) know that there isn't some zany plot to make things balanced. Also sorry we couldn't communicate earlier we are busy as shit here :icon_twisted:"

[chortles 263]

Somehow I'm not sure that pettka was trying to say any of that... hence why he said what he said instead. :p Then again:

there isn't some zany plot to make things balanced.

After all the earlier talk about 'Task Force Balance' maybe someone thought it would have been a waste of time to say this because the complainers wouldn't believe 'im anyway because they were already predisposed to worst-case-scenario thinking? ;)

[Masharra 10]

I still think its more likely that the configs for similar weapons were simply copy-pasted (copy-pasting is the preferred method for endless config entries :)) and now the tweaking begins.

Yeah? how can you tell? You are not BIS and please don't speak as if you know the reasons behind their actions. Given that the change was made after the feedback here there's a good reason to believe it had effect.

DMarwick is actually right :icon_twisted:

I cant really think up anything else when he said " DMARWICK IS ACTUALLY RIGHT" when DMARWICK SAID "I still think its more likely that the configs for similar weapons were simply copy-pasted (copy-pasting is the preferred method for endless config entries :)) and now the tweaking begins."

Then again:After all the earlier talk about 'Task Force Balance' maybe someone thought it would have been a waste of time to say this because the complainers wouldn't believe 'im anyway because they were already predisposed to worst-case-scenario thinking? ;)

MY sentence can easily be changed and quite honestly if that is the way they think then they probably deserve the mania that they get. I understand they arent pr people. Heck I played STO since day one, I know shitty communication but alas STO is consistent with its shit.

Inconsistency is even worse than not talking at all. One one thread you have dna explaining in detail something, next DD getting some great feedback like a wizard, the next some shit about cats, next a one liner boosting the ego of a "fanboy". Meh I suppose I shouldnt complain... they are talking.

Food for thought

The rocket launcher values were different before. Why change them to the same? Perhaps a mistake when copypasta a large amount of work, who knows.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Masharra

[pettka 694]

I cant really think up anything else when he said " DMARWICK IS ACTUALLY RIGHT" when DMARWICK SAID "I still think its more likely that the configs for similar weapons were simply copy-pasted (copy-pasting is the preferred method for endless config entries :)) and now the tweaking begins."

MY sentence can easily be changed and quite honestly if that is the way they think then they probably deserve the mania that they get.

To express myself clearly, I agree with DMarwick who said

This happened only in your own mind.

[Smurf 12]

That means that feedback is useless. You can't win.

[bad benson 1733]

well if this is now down to "who can guess what pettka was really saying", here's my take on it.

these are the statements that got quoted by the next person in this line and responded to:

-Coulum-:

Well the GM6 has had its speeds tweaked. Maybe we just need to be more patient.

metalcraze:

It was tweaked because of people in this thread. Remember the issue was closed and refused to be fixed in the first place with "balance" as an excuse. If we would've been silent, it would just disappear under hundreds of other issues at FT.

DMarkwick:

This happened only in your own mind.

Variable:

Yeah? how can you tell? You are not BIS and please don't speak as if you know the reasons behind their actions. Given that the change was made after the feedback here there's a good reason to believe it had effect.

pettka:

DMarwick is actually right

possible conclusions:

1. it was about "reverting" the GM6 changes and what caused it.

2. "someone" needs to work on their communication skills and it was actually about something else hidden in the last pages.

what do i win, if i'm right?

EDIT: damn! too slow...i still win though

Edited June 27, 2013 by Bad Benson

[Masharra 10]

To express myself clearly, I agree with DMarwick who said

ah my apologies on the confusion then.

Unfortunately that also means that the assumption that the values were for copypasting is false thus no ground has been gained also

I see what you did there Smurf :D

Its like BIS is the smoking man.

And we are Mulder spitting in the wind guessing why certain changes are being made.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Masharra

[Alwarren 2767]

That means that feedback is useless. You can't win.

It's getting rather frustrating since nobody can tell whether their feedback is actually considered or not. Many of the things that happen seem totally random (like different launchers suddenly becoming identical copies of each other), issues being rejected as being "for balancing reasons" and then getting fixed anyway...

I think there is a distinctive problem here, and that's the lack of backwards communication. If you look at the "Known Issues" page for example, I cannot help but wonder why issues are actually shown there. For example, the user interface section doesn't say anything about the missing buttons for loadout/inventory during mission briefing, which for a campaign like Resistance would be a major dealbreaker. We don't know whether this will ever get fixed or not. The top issue in the "Design" section is that fish do not react to players.

The Sitreps don't provide any feedback on these issues either.

For us, the users, it creates an atmosphere where users feel ignored and confused, and changes appear completely random. All of these issues could be avoided, at least partially, by communication. This is not helped by short one-liner replies either.