ARMA III & Steam WORKSHOP

[John Spartan 89]

@Chortles, man I am looking at other possible aspects that are related to such announcement to understand it better, this is a discussion if I am not wrong.

It's simple from my point of view - if steam workshop is brought in on current conditions and as only way to get mods in game to play then that means losing 50% of game value. All the veterans of this modding community already clearly stated that they will stop any further mod release for this platform on current conditions.

Regarding -- "Steam client required" -- I don't like this as much as many others, but that cant be changed, not for ARMA 3 anymore. The rest was my expression of hope that maybe next release will take in account this mistake "steam exclusive" if it gets as far as next release.

[[aps]gnat 28]

... if steam workshop is brought in on current conditions and as only way to get mods in game to play then that means losing 50% of game value.

Yes, and if thats the case after 10 years I will be saying goodbye to BI and my long time hobby.

And likely demanding my money back on the basis of "misrepresentation of product".

I paid the highest $ / Supports Edition because I thought I was getting another product with the same awesome BI formula.

I really do hope thats where we end up.

@Babylonjoke - no problem ;)

[chortles 263]

@Chortles, man I am looking at other possible aspects that are related to such announcement to understand it better, this is a discussion if I am not wrong.

One thing that you have to keep in mind is that the Steamworks requirement (in the sense of Steam account and Steam client) is a prerequisite for Steam Workshop, but that Steamworks does not necessarily result in Steam Workshop... just look at how there's so many Steamworks games yet so relatively few Steam Workshop games. Right now Arma 3 is one of the "Steamworks without Steam Workshop" games, and to my knowledge I'm not aware of anything short of a specific pre-release contract that would obligate Steam Workshop to be implemented and then the bad news sprung later, so at this point it would stand to reason the only way that Steam Workshop would happen would presumably be a conscious post-alpha-release decision on BI's part... which thankfully thusfar seems to be precluded, though Dwarden's refusal to outright say "no we're not doing Steam Workshop" suggests that this isn't decided yet within BI... which means KEEP ON SPEAKING UP! After all, I should emphasize that as of right now, the "system" and "rules", so to speak, as far as the mod hosting/implementation are basically the same as with Arma 2/OA.

It's simple from my point of view - if steam workshop is brought in on current conditions and as only way to get mods in game to play then that means losing 50% of game value. All the veterans of this modding community already clearly stated that they will stop any further mod release for this platform on current conditions.

No, from what I've seen of their responses it's more of "if there's Steam Workshop at all", even if it wasn't the only way to get mods into the game to play, which Dwarden has clearly stated isn't true (i.e. that Steam Workshop would not replace either community-hosting sites like Armaholic or third-party solutions like PlayWithSIX).

Regarding -- "Steam client required" -- I don't like this as much as many others, but that cant be changed, not for ARMA 3 anymore. The rest was my expression of hope that maybe next release will take in account this mistake "steam exclusive" if it gets as far as next release.

Honestly, I'm not "optimistic" here... if anything, I actually suspect that BI is in fact all aboard the Steamworks bandwagon from here on out.

Gnat;2360704']I paid the highest $ / Supports Edition because I thought I was getting another product with the same awesome BI formula.

I actually started suspecting otherwise months before the Steamworks announcement... I admit, that influenced my subsequent lack of sympathy with some of the negatively surprised people here when they found out such things (everything from the Steamworks to the movement/weapon handling changes to the backlash/tensions with newcomers)... I think I saw some of this coming a while ago, though thankfully Steam Workshop wasn't on that list. :p Edited March 31, 2013 by Chortles

[max power 21]

And I would love to see "these tons of new modders" appear. I just won't hold my breathe just yet though. :D

If the number of "modders" I banned or otherwise had to perform administrative action on in the past few weeks are part of this hypothetical new wave, steam workshop / the internets can keep its modders. Ripping off content certainly is a way around the workshop terms of use: they can't take away what you didn't own in the first place.

The problem is that Person A could create something that they do not want on Workshop (for any reason) and then Person B uploads it (or part of it) and valve licence it (as they can do) in the end Person A has had their IP exploited.

I think it's important to understand that you can not give away what you don't own. Someone randomly uploading your stuff to Workshop doesn't grant Valve the right to make derivatives, etc. I think the issue is that we don't know how Valve handles these situations.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Max Power

[chortles 263]

Has anyone from BI actually said anything re: the mod situation within the past two weeks, or is this just more stirring the pot? To my knowledge, Dwarden has only said that Steam Workshop would specifically not replace sites like Armaholic or applications like PlayWithSIX, though he definitely didn't preclude Steamworks (I guess because Maruk had yet to preclude it at the time, so any such statement from Dwarden would risk being overruled by Maruk)... which gets me wondering, has anyone from BI actually said anything about this whole thing since?

[Dwarden 1125]

nobody said anything about x being there to replace y and drop z ...

major concern (and most likely quite valid) for many content makers and total conversion teams

is section 2.a of STEAM WorkShop License Agreement

what, if, when, how ...is yet TBA, TBD ... until then ... it's discussion and speculations

[rksl-rock 1301]

...I think it's important to understand that you can not give away what you don't own. Someone randomly uploading your stuff to Workshop doesn't grant Valve the right to make derivatives, etc. I think the issue is that we don't know how Valve handles these situations.

Its also very important to remember that, currently even if Valve do remove any "illegally uploaded content" they also don't make a clear statement that the aforementioned content is deleted from their servers, backups etc and will not be used in any way shape or form by Valve, its subsidiaries or partners for any purpose. :P

A large part of this issue is that Valve aren't being particularly upfront about the removal process, and the legal affects and intent of the agreement.

It also needs to be clearly said that currently this is NOT Bohemia Interactive's issue or fault. It is something I hope they will raise with Valve on our behalf should they press on with implementing Steam Workshop. But no matter what I wont be using Workshop while that licence is in force.

Edited March 31, 2013 by RKSL-Rock

[[aps]gnat 28]

It also needs to be clearly said that currently this is NOT Bohemia Interactive's issue or fault.

I don't fully see it that way sorry Rock.

I find it hard to believe Maruk and the boys gave no consideration to 2a while they considered the Steam option for ArmAIII, given that community content is acknowledged by BI as a significant factor to their business model.

And if they did consider it, we can only assume they have a plan ......

[rksl-rock 1301]

Gnat;2360850']I don't fully see it that way sorry Rock.

I find it hard to believe Maruk and the boys gave no consideration to 2a while they considered the Steam option for ArmAIII' date=' given that community content is acknowledged by BI as a significant factor to their business model.

And if they did consider it, we can only assume they have a plan ......[/quote']

Fair comment. But Im hoping they weren't aware of it :p Or at least in the rush to get ArmA3 out hadn't fully considered the consequences.

But until we get proper confirmation either way lets just give BIS the benefit of the doubt for the moment. The current licence really is down to Valve not BIS. BIS are now aware of our concerns, lets give them some time to try and work something out. Until BIS make a real statement about Workshop for ArmA3 we are just guessing. I think its becoming obvious that the majority of modders will have issues with the licence. Its becoming increasingly obvious that the current Workshop EULA isnt compatible with the way modders in this community work. I.e. donated content, sample/shared/modified BIS models etc. No one has the right to sign away someone else's IP.

I would like to hear about "BIS' ArmA3 Plan" though.

[[aps]gnat 28]

But until we get proper confirmation either way lets just give BIS the benefit of the doubt for the moment ...... Until BIS make a real statement about Workshop for ArmA3 we are just guessing.....

Yep, agree. We are early to be fair, it is just the Alpha

...... but then again, seems I'm the only one to have released a vehicle for ArmAIII .... be interested to find out how stupid that might have been ;)

[chortles 263]

Until BIS make a real statement about Workshop for ArmA3 we are just guessing.

This is pretty much my issue with this whole thread in a nutshell. :p Especially when the most recent official word is, "what, if, when, how ...is yet TBA, TBD ... until then ... it's discussion and speculations".

Though, does anyone know if there's any games that ever got "locked" into Steam Workshop development pre-release, or were those all post-release decisions by the dev/publisher?

[Binkowski 26]

This is pretty much my issue with this whole thread in a nutshell. :p Especially when the most recent official word is, "what, if, when, how ...is yet TBA, TBD ... until then ... it's discussion and speculations".

Though, does anyone know if there's any games that ever got "locked" into Steam Workshop development pre-release, or were those all post-release decisions by the dev/publisher?

And here is my issue with this thread. I don't want steam work shop period. And if that means coming into a thread and expressing my opinion regarding the matter even if it is "what, if, when, how ...is yet TBA, TBD ... until then... it's discussion and speculation" then I'm going to keep posting in here. Because I do not want the steam work shop. Period.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Binkowski

[chrisb 196]

So lets assume that in the near future BI decide that SWS is the way to go complete with the licences/agreements put in place by valve/steam etc.

Would all the mod makers here in the thread and others walk away from the series or just Arma 3 ?

Business wise I think that’s what BIS will have to do, eventually, go the whole steam route. I believe they know this already, but want to believe themselves they can structure some type of compromise, which probably won’t happen. They know that this community built up around the official BIS community/forums has helped them. But they are a business and will have to move forward, all businesses do.

Mod/addon makers on the whole don’t make money from their work, unless they strike lucky perhaps, its not needed to make money from it, its a hobby. BIS on the other hand, have to make money, it’s a business..

[Binkowski 26]

So lets assume that in the near future BI decide that SWS is the way to go complete with the licences/agreements put in place by valve/steam etc.

Would all the mod makers here in the thread and others walk away from the series or just Arma 3 ?

For me personally, I may continue modding in ArmA2 until it eventually loses it's playerbase (which, is highly unlikely.. look at OFP..). But I will not mod for A3. What I don't like is they are turning on the people who made them what they are today. Take away all of the modders over the years who made content in OFP, ArmA, ArmA2 for free.. take away all of that content and what are you left with?

[rksl-rock 1301]

So lets assume that in the near future BI decide that SWS is the way to go complete with the licences/agreements put in place by valve/steam etc.

If SWS was the only way to get and use mods. Hell NO! I would not release another thing for any BIS game.

If Valve and BIS either come to some agreement over a clear and transparent Workshop removal process ( One that involves a clear statement that they will never use my content after removal) and traditional mod folders etc are still supported I would continue to publicly mod.

However if my content was continually "abused" and uploaded to SWS without my consent then I would be forced to stop any public releases.

---------- Post added at 20:06 ---------- Previous post was at 20:01 ----------

This is pretty much my issue with this whole thread in a nutshell. :p Especially when the most recent official word is, "what, if, when, how ...is yet TBA, TBD ... until then ... it's discussion and speculations".

Meh... I dont agree. Without these discussions BIS would not know the "feeling" in the community. Having said that, from the last few weeks I know a lot more people out there that really don't want Workshop and the consequences it may bring than have posted here.

After actually having spoken with Dwarden I dont see his post as anything official just his opinion. Until Joris or Marek actually post the actual "Plan" I'm disregarding comments like that.

Edited March 31, 2013 by RKSL-Rock
forgot a "that" and corrected some grammar and spelling

[John Spartan 89]

For me personally, I may continue modding in ArmA2 until it eventually loses it's playerbase (which, is highly unlikely.. look at OFP..). But I will not mod for A3. What I don't like is they are turning on the people who made them what they are today. Take away all of the modders over the years who made content in OFP, ArmA, ArmA2 for free.. take away all of that content and what are you left with?

You are completely right on this, for this game, for whole ARMA series to continue to live such a long post release life for each title is possible only with community support, if BIS will choose such business model where community as it is now is alienated then ARMA as we know will stop existing, period.

But what I also am worried about is a possibility to take and easily rip/port add-on's from A2 and get them in A3. Same issue with Steam EULA, section 2. So lets say any work already released for A2 may end up on steam workshop for download as a A3 content. If before steam was secondary for this game series, then now its all changing and respect we all built to IP and authors rights, trust might be shattered easily.

If BIS goes all the way choosing business model, with steam works, I'll would be careful releasing high quality add-ons for A2 as well, like Rocks Eurofighter is one clear example. Price for such quality model on market is quite high and just an idea that now he after all this hard work has to worry about his IP being stolen, does not seem as a good start for this transition in BIS business model.

We might need some tools to create add-ons that cant be ported so easily to A3 in case of steam works coming in. A lot of people will keep playing A2 and modders will be moding for this game , but we would like to have assurance that A2 EULA stays the same and it is enforced within community.

[chortles 263]

At last check, John_Spartan, is there anything actually preventing anyone from distributing your content besides the risk of identifying/banning the thief and taking down the links? Considering that development consolidation was a factor in the Steamworks decision, I definitely don't believe that a separate set of "non-Steam Workshop compatible" tools are planned... so everything comes down to whether or not there actually is a Steam Workshop announcement or not... though I imagine that this thread mainly keeps going because of Maruk having not actually ruled out the possibility.

[John Spartan 89]

At last check, John_Spartan, is there anything actually preventing anyone from distributing your content besides the risk of identifying/banning the thief and taking down the links?

You are right - from technical point of view there is no limits to do so outside these community controlled websites. Piracy is a mayor issue in general. But again if some work is stolen/ripped and put on some download server, it can be taken down, might take a while but at least most of file sharing websites don't have STEAM EULA section 2.

So far the community was good and strong tool to send the right message on this matter.

The problem is that steam don't care, they will bring more people on board for this title buy their sales strategy but they don't care to educate them in terms of how this community works and how important is to respect someone's else's IP. They just don't care, for them section 2 in that EULA is just a way to cover their ass, in case of lawsuit, they are not interested in keeping this community/tittle alive - for steam there is other titles to sell, after people will loose interest in ARMA.

I personally am a proud hard core fan of this series since 2003. It is sad to see that all what people have created by their hard work thru last decade is about to be thronw out. I don't play other games, once by mistake I bought OFP Dragon Rising and very quickly realized what Codemasters done - I don't want that happen to ARMA, that's why I am here expressing my point of view.

Edited March 31, 2013 by John_Spartan

[dayglow 2]

Its also very important to remember that, currently even if Valve do remove any "illegally uploaded content" they also don't make a clear statement that the aforementioned content is deleted from their servers, backups etc and will not be used in any way shape or form by Valve, its subsidiaries or partners for any purpose. :P

A large part of this issue is that Valve aren't being particularly upfront about the removal process, and the legal affects and intent of the agreement.

It also needs to be clearly said that currently this is NOT Bohemia Interactive's issue or fault. It is something I hope they will raise with Valve on our behalf should they press on with implementing Steam Workshop. But no matter what I wont be using Workshop while that licence is in force.

Has Valve ever ripped off mod content in the past?

[rksl-rock 1301]

Has Valve ever ripped off mod content in the past?

Under that licence they dont have to "rip" anything. If you agree to it you've just given them permission to do what ever they like. Its been explained repeatedly before.

Edited April 1, 2013 by RKSL-Rock
Clarification

[dayglow 2]

And I'd appreciate an example if Valve taking content from a mod and using those assets in a game.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Why would you need an example? It doesn't matter if they haven't done it yet. It doesn't negate any of the points made in this topic.

[dayglow 2]

I'd say its central to this topic. The fear has to have a basis in reality doesn't it?

[rksl-rock 1301]

And I'd appreciate an example if Valve taking content from a mod and using those assets in a game.

And As I've said repeatedly i don't have one because legal disputes arent allowed to be discussed on the Steam forums so I cannot provide you with links to "evidence". Nor do I have any contacts in their legal team to confirm rumours and stories. As I have also repeatedly said, we are discussing ways in which that license could be exploited and if BIS can do anything on our behalf to change it. In short Possibilities.

And "IF" Valve has indeed taken content from a mod and "commercially exploited" it under that licence they would be legally within their rights to do so. Repeatedly asking for proof they have exploited content is no more sensible that me asking you for proof that they haven't. Neither you or I can provide it. Unless Valve are willing to become miraculously open about their business and legal dealings we are extremely unlikely to find out.

EDIT - But that does not negate the fact that the EULA as it stands right now is not one that a large number of ArmA Modders could actually use. Either through reluctance to sign over all the rights or because the addons they make and adapt are made from donated content. Again as been said repeatedly before, no one has the legal right to give away your IP. Only you can do that.

And should someone try it is up to the author to recover his IP rights from Valve which will cost time, money and a lot of heart ache. Which over time will detrimentally affect this community. That there is the entirety of this situation and this discussion.

Edited April 1, 2013 by RKSL-Rock
added paragraph

[dayglow 2]

I'm asking what the rational grounding if the fear that Valve is going to exploit mods uploaded into their site is based on. I've seen many examples of popular mods being turned into commercial stand alone games and the mod makers breaking into the game making business.

In the end it doesn't really effect me. I will continue to use Armaholic and other sites for my mod consumption. I just have a hard time understanding the sky is falling mentality when there is absolutely no factual information to back it up. I could total see your side if there are examples of Valve exploiting mod material in the past. I haven't seen it. If done google searches. I have found examples of mod makers financially benifiting from Valve when they have a popular mod, but nothing on Valve taking content and putting it in games without compensation.