6.5 mm and recoil management in game

[m4inbrain 10]

To me it seems realistic for burst/autofire, but too much on single shots. I could not hold my G36 kneeling for a 4 shot burst (Leerschießen, after a trainingsrun just to empty the mag), went all over the place. But single shots kneeling is quite managable, i don't think that the 6,5mm has that much more recoil. Especially not the caseless rounds.

[4 IN 1 0]

This is the way I see it. People need to take time to get used to the recoil. It may seen clunky and unusable now, but with time it become natural.

The problem is, it just isn't natural.

[-Coulum- 35]

The problem is, it just isn't natural.

Honestly there is no way to make it totally natural. Its a video game and whether we are dragging the mouse down to compensate for recoil, pressing a button to control recoil or just totally eliminating recoil, assuming the shooter can control it without having to think, it will never be natural compared to the real thing.

The current values have a good effect on gameplay and allow for different people to have different proficiency while firing. It also makes it so someone who is cool headed will be controlling his recoil while under stress while someone panicking will forget about it and be spraying all other the place - just like in reality. I like all of these things, therefore I like the recoil as it is.

[4 IN 1 0]

Honestly there is no way to make it totally natural. Its a video game and whether we are dragging the mouse down to compensate for recoil, pressing a button to control recoil or just totally eliminating recoil, assuming the shooter can control it without having to think, it will never be natural compared to the real thing.

The current values have a good effect on gameplay and allow for different people to have different proficiency while firing. It also makes it so someone who is cool headed will be controlling his recoil while under stress while someone panicking will forget about it and be spraying all other the place - just like in reality. I like all of these things, therefore I like the recoil as it is.

And I am going to tell you again, this is not how you control your recoil in real life. IT IS JUST NOT LIKE IN REALITY.

[m4inbrain 10]

It also makes it so someone who is cool headed will be controlling his recoil while under stress while someone panicking will forget about it and be spraying all other the place - just like in reality.

.. in what reality? It does not matter if you're coolheaded or not, you can't defy physics just because you smoked weed the day earlier. And you can't "spray in panic" because you have a frikkin SWITCH on your gun that needs to be switched to actually spray, on default it's on single fire.

I would love if people stop referring to "reality", when they seemingly never even had a military(!) rifle in their hands. We're playing a simulator, aren't we? If it can't simulate infantry-weapons properly (recoil being the main drawback), that would be actually sad. Even in Arma 2 it was way better (far from perfect though, especially with sniperrifles going 30° upwards after a shot - they don't, at least the G22 i fired did not). So the criticism is correct. No one wants easier weapon handling, but realistic weapon handling. And that's not easier, but makes more sense.

Edit: just keep in mind that caseless ammunition in reality provides less recoil.

[-Coulum- 35]

.. in what reality? It does not matter if you're coolheaded or not, you can't defy physics just because you smoked weed the day earlier. And you can't "spray in panic" because you have a frikkin SWITCH on your gun that needs to be switched to actually spray, on default it's on single fire.

I think you may have misunderstood what I meant. In reality you need to properly position yourself to handle the recoil of a weapon correct? If you panic you aren't going to be doing this thus will have less accurate groupings. If your "coolheaded" (ie calm and collected) you will be able to prepare yourself for the recoil and have more accurate fire. In arma this is also true with the current recoil. If I panic and forget to compensate for recoil by dragging the mouse down I don't get accurate fire. If I keep my wits about me I can however shoot more accurately. Am I making sense?

[Nikoteen 24]

The ironic side is that the new player model actual do the proper firing stance to handle the recoil with forward body placement.

So the supposed feature of mouse vertical recoil compensation would be unnecessary to begin with, and without taking into account the gravity.

I found also as some of you that the single shot is surprisingly harder to manage than full auto. Something that made think something is broken with the recoil system, and the reason I made this thread.

[Maxzy 12]

...single shot is surprisingly harder to manage than full auto.

^This^ Its very weird that you can shoot almost straight with full auto and at the same time you can't place second or third shot in a 5 meters circle from a 50 meters distance while using single shot mode. Something is certainly broken.

[-Coulum- 35]

...single shot is surprisingly harder to manage than full auto.

I haven't found that to be true. This is a vid comparing the two. The fire mode is switched between shots. Neither recoil repeats exactly the same. There seems to be a degree of randomness.

The ironic side is that the new player model actual do the proper firing stance to handle the recoil with forward body placement.

So the supposed feature of mouse vertical recoil compensation would be unnecessary to begin with, and without taking into account the gravity.

I guess this comes down to personal preference. I prefer to have to be more involved when shooting. I don't like games where weapon handling is merely a point and click affair. As I have mentioned, this increased concentration requirement also makes gameplay better IMO from a tactical point of view. We could also make it so the avatar also automatically controls his breath and aims the weapon, so all you have to do is click when he puts it on target, but where would the fun in that be. I understand where your coming from but we just have different preferences I guess.

[maturin 12]

Finding a neutral position, where you don't fight the weapon, and it stays on target by it's own - that's what we should discuss here. You position your weapon using your hands and sling, to just hang suspended wherever you want to aim it, and it will return roughly to that point by it's own after firing it. It doesn't matter if it's 5.56, 6.5 or 7.62. I have no problem shooting 7.62x39, 7.62x51, 7.62x54R or .30-06 at "kneeling silhouette" target set at 300m using iron sights while standing - time after time. Adjust the rifle to neutral, aim, squeeze off a round and wait for the rifle to come back to target on its own. Why do games have to make it harder than it really is in the real life? Why every single time, I have to run around in an avatar that is supposed to be a highly trained soldier, but either don't know how to hold a rifle, or have poor trigger control ?

I hear you.

What you're missing is this:

Every single shot you fire in ArmA has a 100% perfect trigger pull. Flawless. No pulling slightly to one side, no flinching or stiffening up. Perfect sight alignment, too. Imagine if you suddenly developed that ability. You would clean the floor at every marksmanship competition in the country, with whatever skill you happen to have at the moment.

Without a randomized RPG-style dispersion pattern, recoil is the only place where the game can intervene in our god-like powers of mouse and keyboard marksmanship, and make our battlefield performance *slightly* more like in reality.

Simulating the experience of shooting is not the only concern here. We also have to worry about the effects of shooting on gameplay. And that means exaggerated recoil.

[m4inbrain 10]

I hear you.

What you're missing is this:

Every single shot you fire in ArmA has a 100% perfect trigger pull. Flawless. No pulling slightly to one side, no flinching or stiffening up. Perfect sight alignment, too. Imagine if you suddenly developed that ability. You would clean the floor at every marksmanship competition in the country, with whatever skill you happen to have at the moment.

Without a randomized RPG-style dispersion pattern, recoil is the only place where the game can intervene in our god-like powers of mouse and keyboard marksmanship, and make our battlefield performance *slightly* more like in reality.

Simulating the experience of shooting is not the only concern here. We also have to worry about the effects of shooting on gameplay. And that means exaggerated recoil.

I agree, at least to the point that you need something to interfere with your aim. But please, make it (at least more) realistic. It's plain stupid that a gun with caseless ammunition recoils 25° in the air, it feels like firing a .50 Magnum revolver, and that feels really desperate. At least tone it down for singleshots. I'm not saying no recoil at all, but you should be able to stay on target with the holo, and not have your gun obstruct the view after one round. It's hard enough to spot enemies in the first place, does not help that you lose track of it with every single shot.

Take 50% of the vertikal recoil off, and put 25%-50% more recoil to the left and right. Still unrealistic, but still more realism than now.

[-Coulum- 35]

Simulating the experience of shooting is not the only concern here. We also have to worry about the effects of shooting on gameplay. And that means exaggerated recoil.

Precisely. To me, it doesn't matter so much whether individual features are perfect representations of reality. What matters is the type of gameplay that they cause/encourage.

I agree, at least to the point that you need something to interfere with your aim. But please, make it (at least more) realistic. It's plain stupid that a gun with caseless ammunition recoils 25° in the air, it feels like firing a .50 Magnum revolver, and that feels really desperate. At least tone it down for singleshots. I'm not saying no recoil at all, but you should be able to stay on target with the holo, and not have your gun obstruct the view after one round. It's hard enough to spot enemies in the first place, does not help that you lose track of it with every single shot.

[WarfighterOne 10]

the 6.5mm is a little overdramatized in this game in my opinion, Ive never shot one, but ive shot a lot of .223(5.56) and 7.62s.

[raynor 0]

the 6.5mm is a little overdramatized in this game in my opinion, Ive never shot one, but ive shot a lot of .223(5.56) and 7.62s.

6.5 Grendel has roughly half the felt recoil of 7.62. On an off topic note I find it odd that in a futuristic setting with an ACR style weapon they didn't go with the 300 blackout as a round of choice. 7.62mm slug in a necked down 5.56 casing that can be loaded into any magazine that holds .223/5.56. It would seem the logical choice for a futuristic force wanting to make cost effective measures in swapping to a new round type.

[4 IN 1 0]

Precisely. To me, it doesn't matter so much whether individual features are perfect representations of reality. What matters is the type of gameplay that they cause/encourage.

Oh for god sake, feeling natural doesn't mean keep dragging down the fucking mouse every time you shoot a single shot.

[Hartmann 10]

Ok, so it seems to me that there are two viewpoints at this time.

1, your character is trained and experienced in controlling recoil, is expecting the kickback and is already adequatly prepared to compensate it.

2, your character is being controlled by you, so you should be the one prepared to compensate for full realistic kickback that the weapon of this kind would have when fired. Your character doesn't help you.

It seems that neither of these extremes are ideal considering gameplay/realism/skill requirements/it's a game/etc. So it seems most logical to me that a balance is struck between those two. Your character does compensate for it, but not so much that it requires no more input from the player controlling him.

Reasonable middle ground?

[Nikoteen 24]

Ok, so it seems to me that there are two viewpoints at this time.

1, your character is trained and experienced in controlling recoil, is expecting the kickback and is already adequatly prepared to compensate it.

2, your character is being controlled by you, so you should be the one prepared to compensate for full realistic kickback that the weapon of this kind would have when fired. Your character doesn't help you.

It seems that neither of these extremes are ideal considering gameplay/realism/skill requirements/it's a game/etc. So it seems most logical to me that a balance is struck between those two. Your character does compensate for it, but not so much that it requires no more input from the player controlling him.

Reasonable middle ground?

Best middle ground recommendation I have read in this topic :

Take 50% of the vertikal recoil off, and put 25%-50% more recoil to the left and right. Still unrealistic, but still more realism than now.

[4 IN 1 0]

Best middle ground recommendation I have read in this topic :

I am all OK with the vertical part, anything that is not over-exaggerating the recoil is fine in my book, sideway should not be over 25%, you still have a hand on each side of the weapon you know.

[RogueRAZR 1]

Ok you guys are looking at the wrong spec for the ammo.

There is no way to tell how hard a bullet will kick based on its caliber.

It has everything to do with is powder charge. Caliber means nothing when it comes to the amount of kick a weapon has.

Here is a simple one, Winchester .300 MAG kicks WAY harder then a standard 7.62x39mm round found in an AK.

This is despite the fact that the actual rounds themselves are almost the exact same caliber.

So you guys need to look up the actual power charge of the 6.5mm rounds vs. the 5.56mm, and 7.62mm rounds.

I am betting the powder charge of the 6.5mm will be higher, or similar the 7.62mm.

This is because the reason 6.5mm was invented was to give a cross between the punch of the 7.62x39mm and the muzzle velocity of the 5.56x45mm.

Edited March 9, 2013 by RogueRAZR

[SandboxPlaya 10]

Ok, you guys are insane. In urban areas, I spray people down over medium ranges with ease and I do it more often than it should be done. If there's one thing ARMA 3 needs to have less of, it's spraying. Not the other way around.

[BigMorgan 11]

I don't see why spraying isn't a valid tactic, especially in CQB / urban fighting.

My only beef is that the Mk200 has wild, insane recoil that makes it only useful as a marksman rifle over medium distances. With both the MX and Katiba I can put controlled burst of 3-4 rounds into a roughly man-sized circle but the Mk200 just bounces all over my screen. Why should a LMG have significantly more recoil than a Carbine?

[-Coulum- 35]

Oh for god sake, feeling natural doesn't mean keep dragging down the fucking mouse every time you shoot a single shot.

I never said it felt natural. I just said it wasn't that bad. Please suggest a way that does feel "natural". I personally can't think of one. I think dragging the mouse down is good enough.

Ok, you guys are insane. In urban areas, I spray people down over medium ranges with ease and I do it more often than it should be done. If there's one thing ARMA 3 needs to have less of, it's spraying. Not the other way around.

I wouldn't say anyone is insane, but I do agree that it is currently not all that hard to gun down opponents in full auto within 25 metres even when on the move.

. I wonder what all those who think recoil is too high think results should be. Should we be able to gun people down from 50 metres instead? Should your average rifle man be laying down accurate bursts in a 600 metre firefight? Too me whether the recoil is 100% realistic isn't as important as how it will effect the reality of the gameplay.

By the way, if you want to get a feel for what recoil would feel like at 50%, 75% etc. you can type this setunitrecoilcoefficient x, in the players init, where x is the number you want to multiply the recoil by.

[CAI 1]

I am having a hard time with the recoil, especially as blueforces. The kick is huge! I try staying crouched, control breathing etc but trying to tap shots is very difficult.

Has anyone noticed Opforces the recoil is much less of a problem. I feel much more in control using opfor weapons and it feels more similar to Arma 2.

[-Coulum- 35]

I am having a hard time with the recoil, especially as blueforces. The kick is huge! I try staying crouched, control breathing etc but trying to tap shots is very difficult.

Has anyone noticed Opforces the recoil is much less of a problem. I feel much more in control using opfor weapons and it feels more similar to Arma 2.

Just wondering, at what ranges are you having trouble tapping off shots? I have not noticed much of a difference between blufor and opfor recoil.

[CAI 1]

Just wondering, at what ranges are you having trouble tapping off shots? I have not noticed much of a difference between blufor and opfor recoil.

Between 150-300m there is a massive punch to the bluefor weapons compared to opfor. It honestly feels night and day the difference between the two sides.