Curious about airplanes and helicopters.

[CyclonicTuna 87]

So I've browsed the forums a bit, and I think there this question hasn't really been asked nor awnsered.

I've always been very passionate about flying in the Arma universe. Mainly because its the only game that comes close to fully integrating infantry, armor, navy and airforce in one 3D enviroment. So my question really is if there's already more kown about the flying simulation.

There really very little known about what flying in Arma 3 is going to be like. The only things I can sum up is that there will be vapor trails, and that the physical simulation of aircraft and airbased munition is going to be improved. But I am more curious about if we will have more functional cockpits. Like fully functional MFD's and HUD's. Really being able to trace and lock onto a laser designation by infantry using an in-cockpit MFD, that would be amazing.

I know that there is a lot possible in with the Arma engine, I guess its just a matter of how much effort and time will be put into the aircraft. But I'd really love to see more like this:

Edited January 26, 2013 by CyclonicTuna

[Kamov 1]

chances are you will have arma 2 style aircraft.

[Tonci87 163]

I think until now they confirmed the ToH flighmodel for helicopters and the Arma 2 flightmodel for fixed wing.

[dragon01 902]

What are those vids from? I'm a bit out of touch with the modding community and this looks amazing. Is this released?

[metalcraze 290]

AH64 mod by BIforums moderators. No it's not released.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?107995-AH-64-Pack/page142

And there's a reason why ArmA has no functional cockpits.

It takes years to create a detailed sim of a single chopper where the simulation of everything else is non-existent, it would take a ridiculous amount of time and manpower to do it for every chopper/plane in ArmA3.

Yes it's very unfortunate but it's the crap reality.

Edited January 27, 2013 by metalcraze

[Kamov 1]

Anything is better than the TAB spam flight model.

[jsmuk 13]

I think until now they confirmed the ToH flighmodel for helicopters and the Arma 2 flightmodel for fixed wing.

Just out of interest where has this been confirmed? I have been looking for information one way or another on it.

[chortles 263]

It was mentioned early on by a dev, but wasn't really advertised (i.e. as a bullet point at E3/Gamescom) although we've never had a dev retract the claim either.

And there's a reason why ArmA has no functional cockpits.

It takes years to create a detailed sim of a single chopper where the simulation of everything else is non-existent, it would take a ridiculous amount of time and manpower to do it for every chopper/plane in ArmA3.

Yes it's very unfortunate but it's the crap reality.

An TL;DR on what metalcraze has said here might be that Arma is not as deep as a study sim like a DCS game, but it is also not as narrow as a DCS game. ;-)

OP: Unfortunately other than old 2011 screenshots, the brief sighting of a F-35 at Gamescom 2011 (back before the seemingly major revisions in 2012) and the "AH-9" in E3/Gamescom 2012 I don't think we've seen anything of air power in Arma 3 -- so you can see some footage from both conventions for one helicopter, but I don't remember fixed-wing even getting a mention in all of 2012.

[CyclonicTuna 87]

A

And there's a reason why ArmA has no functional cockpits.

It takes years to create a detailed sim of a single chopper where the simulation of everything else is non-existent, it would take a ridiculous amount of time and manpower to do it for every chopper/plane in ArmA3.

Yes it's very unfortunate but it's the crap reality.

See that's what I thought, but the AH-64 mod was also made for Arma 2 by a small group of people. And I'm not asking for a fully fledged flight sim, I just think in Arma 3 the devs can do better than in Arma 2. MFD's and functional HUD's can be accomplished in my opnion before the release.

Otherwise I really hope there will be more support for high zoom for camera's and MFD's because in Arma 2 mods lik Mando Missle those tended to be very glitchy and took a huge chunck out of your preformance.

[chortles 263]

MFD's and functional HUD's can be accomplished in my opnion before the release.

I don't think we've heard a peep about the "Mi-48 Kajman" or the Comanche since 2011, so all that we "really" have to go on is the E3/Gamescom 2012 presentations, where only the "AH-9" (a Little Bird analogue) was shown or demonstrated, and it (still) has analog instrumentation with a minimalistic HUD... other than the returning weapon/ammo counter in the upper right corner and the status indicators in the upper left corner (vehicle name, component "health", altimeter and speedometer) all we have for HUD overlay elements are the little "minimap radar"/cone-of-vision indicator at the middle of the top and the crosshairs as a point-of-aim for the helicopter-mounted/pilot-or-co-pilot-operated weapons; there is no other overlay, not even a bearing indicator. This isn't to say that "MFD's and functional HUD's" won't happen, but I have no evidence with which to support a belief that the devs are considering them at this time.

Here's the E3 2012 presentation for Gamespot, skip to 11:50 for a zoom-in on the instruments;

's a Gamescom 2012 presentation with Gaia narrating, and

's one with Ivan narrating.

[nodunit 397]

I think the last thing we heard was that the flight model will be tied to difficulty, IE TKOH on harder and Arma 2 on easier, I don't know how that will work though considering, in a way TKOH's flight model also relies on the hazards of rotor driven platforms.

About the cockpit interaction, I'd never expect to see it outside of anything like TKOH, certainly not Arma 3 simply due to it boiling down to work that could be put elsewhere. It comes down to a balance, BI has to aim to make the game run as well as they can across all units on as many computers as they can, they'll be much more busy with that on its own merits. There is a lot to consider when it comes to things like this but if the target is a wider scope of audience then chances are slim to nill.

Something as "simple" as a moving map display so that crashes become less numerous in flight would be nice, but honestly even that is too much to hope for.

Time is also money for them whereas in the addon you can be as carefree as you want, the only thing you lose is releasing your addon to the current title and the excitement from the people waiting on it.

Edited January 28, 2013 by NodUnit

[metalcraze 290]

See that's what I thought, but the AH-64 mod was also made for Arma 2 by a small group of people.

No it 'was' not. It's not out yet. The chopper flight model is still the same. It is also 2-3 years in the making thus far. Mod's MFDs will also be nowhere near as functional as the real thing.

In a game where due to its design goals it takes 40 seconds for a plane to cross the whole map the focus should be elsewhere.

And I'm not asking for a fully fledged flight sim, I just think in Arma 3 the devs can do better than in Arma 2. MFD's and functional HUD's can be accomplished in my opnion before the release.

Except every MFD in every plane/chopper has a different set of functions, not mentioning that a lot of stuff in, say, F-35 is still a secret.

If you want some generic MFDs that behave the same in every plane/chopper - then what's the point? The only difference would be in that you will need to press buttons to get to the same set of screens we have now.

So yeah, it's certainly not possible till the end of this year. Especially not without ignoring all the other stuff the game has. I'd rather see more time being spent on AI and medic functionality by programmers and designers. No matter what BIS will do during this time simmers will still point fingers and laugh at how EECH/ Falcon 4.0/ random DCS game does it better.

[CyclonicTuna 87]

Except every MFD in every plane/chopper has a different set of functions, not mentioning that a lot of stuff in, say, F-35 is still a secret.

If you want some generic MFDs that behave the same in every plane/chopper - then what's the point? The only difference would be in that you will need to press buttons to get to the same set of screens we have now.

No I get that. Its just that I think that if there would be more support for these things that it would open up a whole new level of gameplay and immersion for modders alike. Besides, once the support for MFD's is there, it shouldn't be to hard to program it for loads of other functions without compromising preformance.

In DCS and Falcon 4 there might be a lot more depth to the functions you can program in cockpit, but that doesn't mean its a huge leap for Arma to just implement te support for the excistance of ingame HUD's and MFD's.

Nevertheless I understand that the dev's might be more conserned with other matters at this point. And believe me, like you I'd also rather see improved AI before things like these are implemented. I'm just trying to adress the point that I think Arma 3 has a lot of potential when it comes to expanding the gameplay experience.

[Kamov 1]

No I get that. Its just that I think that if there would be more support for these things that it would open up a whole new level of gameplay and immersion for modders alike. Besides, once the support for MFD's is there, it shouldn't be to hard to program it for loads of other functions without compromising preformance.

In DCS and Falcon 4 there might be a lot more depth to the functions you can program in cockpit, but that doesn't mean its a huge leap for Arma to just implement te support for the excistance of ingame HUD's and MFD's.

Nevertheless I understand that the dev's might be more conserned with other matters at this point. And believe me, like you I'd also rather see improved AI before things like these are implemented. I'm just trying to adress the point that I think Arma 3 has a lot of potential when it comes to expanding the gameplay experience.

Why are you even trying to argue with metalcraze. Its a waste of time, he is the conservative of the armaverse.

[nodunit 397]

There are two major problems when it comes to default aircraft having complex displays...firstly the HUD, cockpit information is less relevant when it's all sorted nicely elsewhere at all times, you don't need to cycle through weapons, damage, radar and fuel if it's always there before you. If you check the top of the screen in those videos you'll see that the BI HUD is fully disabled, leaving you to rely on the HDU or cockpit instruments, thus giving them more meaning.

Now you could go very simple and have a page that shows rocket or missiles selected and nothing more, but it's nothing more than a gimmick if the HUD is always in place, because the information is already and always there, thus also eliminating any unique function differentiating between analogue and digital, as well as the factors in play for loss of electronic displays due to battle damage.

Edited January 29, 2013 by NodUnit

[chortles 263]

There are two major problems when it comes to default aircraft having complex displays...firstly the HUD, cockpit information is less relevant when it's all sorted nicely elsewhere at all times, you don't need to cycle through weapons, damage, radar and fuel if it's always there before you. If you check the top of the screen in those videos you'll see that the BI HUD is fully disabled, leaving you to rely on the HDU or cockpit instruments, thus giving them more meaning.

This is true -- and by default while I didn't see a fuel indicator, the HUD overlay version shown at Gamescom 2012 does have damage, altitude and airspeed on the left, with radar at the center and weapons on the right.

[CyclonicTuna 87]

There are two major problems when it comes to default aircraft having complex displays...firstly the HUD, cockpit information is less relevant when it's all sorted nicely elsewhere at all times, you don't need to cycle through weapons, damage, radar and fuel if it's always there before you. If you check the top of the screen in those videos you'll see that the BI HUD is fully disabled, leaving you to rely on the HDU or cockpit instruments, thus giving them more meaning.

Now you could go very simple and have a page that shows rocket or missiles selected and nothing more, but it's nothing more than a gimmick if the HUD is always in place, because the information is already and always there, thus also eliminating any unique function differentiating between analogue and digital, as well as the factors in play for loss of electronic displays due to battle damage.

Again, I get your point. But its not relevant to the point I'm trying to make. Because you might aswell intergrate that information into a HUD, there's really not that much of a diffrence in how you recieve the info. Besides, now that the game takes place about 25 years in the future, I can imagine that there is a much more complex helmet display in the pilot's helmet. Which, in terms could again communicate like an MFD and/or a HUD.

I'll say it again, and this is just my opinion. I think there is a lot more room and potential for an integrated gameplay experience when it comes to aircraft in Arma 3. Meaning, that this could be as simple as a combination of gameplay elements, and real life technology. Something the AH-64D already uthilizes. And something that Mando Missle has tried to approach.

[chortles 263]

For what it's worth, Jay Crowe mentioned two and a half weeks ago (more specifically January 12th) that "we've now locked down our internal plans" and two days later that "I was referring to our internal plans for the Public Alpha, specifically". Fortunately however, it's been mentioned that the community alpha is supposed to feature mod support... so while that doesn't mean that directly porting over MMA is possible (I for one am perfectly happy to break addon compatibility if such is what's holding back further improvements) a reimagining / "implementing the MMA concept from scratch" may be possible.

And of course, it's entirely possible that aircraft have been worked on way more extensively than BI has let on -- I believe it was Ivan who mentioned at Gamescom 2012 that although the Gamescom build was using existing Arma 2 HUD elements such as the "numbered list" command menus, internally BI was already considering other UIs but that these would not be seen publicly until the community alpha.

Let me note that I'm speaking mainly about helicopters because I don't believe that we've seen anything about fixed-wing back in 2012 at all.

[scrim 1]

IMO, if there are any more detailed targeting features and such, they'll probably be pretty much like Mando's mod (no critisism); Working quite well, but so generic and function-before-authenticity that it won't even be funny if you're read up on the specifif air frame.

[WildFire6 10]

I wonder if a little bird will be able to take more than a pistol round. Honestly the flight dynamics in A2 weren't too bad, they were fun, took a bit to get used to compared to dcs and sims. I love flying more than anything in any game, but I for the most part have steered clear of flying into combat in any capacity. American helo's and aircraft have been known throughout history as having returned missing whole sections of wings, tails, ailerons, hydraulics, holes everywhere and even hueys in nam were documented with bullet scratches all over the rotors and able to withstand chopping down trees to create their own landing zones.

My point is, our birds should be able to take some SERIOUS hits. We need damage models, really bad. Simulation isnt worth a bit of anything if its like in A2 and the first time you have a good crew and load and the first little bit of 7.62 knocks your engine out. Not to mention the enemies uncanny ability to snipe the pilot right out of a moving chopper, which is nearly impossible in real life even at extremely close ranges. Seriously - damage models. I want to fly into combat, and I want to come home to tell the story, for once.

[chortles 263]

Unfortunately WildFire6 the E3 2012 and Gamescom 2012 presentations of vehicles gave us nothing to go on as far as how damage modeling it was implemented differently from OA -- while I saw the "component status" boxes from OA, it's not like we really had the infantry shooting back with anti-armor at the ground vehicles (I believe both the Strider RCWS and the Hunter RCWS?) and the helicopter showcase had no enemies at all.

Likewise, while there is the old rumor about a TKOH flight model for helicopters, I don't believe that we have had anything else rumored to be implemented from TKOH into Arma 3.

[Tonci87 163]

I wonder if a little bird will be able to take more than a pistol round. Honestly the flight dynamics in A2 weren't too bad, they were fun, took a bit to get used to compared to dcs and sims. I love flying more than anything in any game, but I for the most part have steered clear of flying into combat in any capacity. American helo's and aircraft have been known throughout history as having returned missing whole sections of wings, tails, ailerons, hydraulics, holes everywhere and even hueys in nam were documented with bullet scratches all over the rotors and able to withstand chopping down trees to create their own landing zones.

My point is, our birds should be able to take some SERIOUS hits. We need damage models, really bad. Simulation isnt worth a bit of anything if its like in A2 and the first time you have a good crew and load and the first little bit of 7.62 knocks your engine out. Not to mention the enemies uncanny ability to snipe the pilot right out of a moving chopper, which is nearly impossible in real life even at extremely close ranges. Seriously - damage models. I want to fly into combat, and I want to come home to tell the story, for once.

THIS

IMHO one of the biggest flaws of Arma is the lack of proper damage simulation on vehicels.

[rye1 21]

I agree, definitely seems like vehicles were made out of plastic.

[metalcraze 290]

No I get that. Its just that I think that if there would be more support for these things that it would open up a whole new level of gameplay and immersion for modders alike. Besides, once the support for MFD's is there, it shouldn't be to hard to program it for loads of other functions without compromising preformance.

Then you should be happy since there's support actually. As the WIP mod proves for ArmA2. And even better - with TakeOn they did clickable cockpits and with render-to-texture capability it is now possible to have separate tracking cameras like in real combat planes/choppers.

Franze & Co also stated they will port AH64 to TakeOn with new functions and if BIS will keep its new physics in ArmA3 - there's a chance we'll get a proper AH64 in there at least.

[scrim 1]

I wonder if a little bird will be able to take more than a pistol round. Honestly the flight dynamics in A2 weren't too bad, they were fun, took a bit to get used to compared to dcs and sims. I love flying more than anything in any game, but I for the most part have steered clear of flying into combat in any capacity. American helo's and aircraft have been known throughout history as having returned missing whole sections of wings, tails, ailerons, hydraulics, holes everywhere and even hueys in nam were documented with bullet scratches all over the rotors and able to withstand chopping down trees to create their own landing zones.

My point is, our birds should be able to take some SERIOUS hits. We need damage models, really bad. Simulation isnt worth a bit of anything if its like in A2 and the first time you have a good crew and load and the first little bit of 7.62 knocks your engine out. Not to mention the enemies uncanny ability to snipe the pilot right out of a moving chopper, which is nearly impossible in real life even at extremely close ranges. Seriously - damage models. I want to fly into combat, and I want to come home to tell the story, for once.

+100. Seriously, I don't care if they have to disable IFVs, tanks, soldiers, etc. from shooting at helicopters and planes all together, because it'd still be better than having pilots in fighter jets getting sniped by BMPs, planes getting shot down from thousands of meters away with one gun shot from an MBT (that really just destroys the fun in trying to line up for a gun run or a dumb bomb drop), etc.