Better useage of 2 or more monitors

[LeeManatee 4]

when i bring up irl points it's actually make sense since someone around here was saying that:

we would have to stop and check the map which imo is obviously a lot more realistic.

while it's not realistic at all if we are talking about 2035 while there are future soldier systems developing nowdays i.e. land warrior,

while it's not realistic at all since you use gps to drive somewhere today instead on looking for right page in paper road map.

so your argument stay invalid untill you will provide some points to prove it. i gave you few irl references, shown usage of additional displays in helicopters, planes and it's commonly used nowdays in transport for example in strykers.

at the moment all irl references tell that this is realistic and authentic, while you didn't provide any argument to prove your point that opening a paper road map instead of gps is realistic.

heck, gps is not real!

My argument is already valid, moron.

woah, thanks for personal offence, this is really make your argument valid.

Not having to open the map while other players do have to is advantage plain and simple. Bringing up gps in cars and stuff to try and win the debate is laughable i dont know how else i can say it.

then please, don't bring the word "realism" to excuse your true intentions. i heard exacly same crap when people started to whine about suggestion to add track ir support on some other forum about some space game "OMG! I DUN HAFF IT! THEY GOT ADVTNEGA! NO! NO! DON'T ADD IT!" why the same crap here?

there are a plot and irl references for using such systems nowdays. please, when next time you bring word "realism" to justify something, make sure that it's actually realistic and not how you wish it to be.

Were talking about a soldier checking a map not helicopters and cars you complete muppet dont go offtopic to try (and fail) to prove your point.

heck it's one and the same, no matter if thats plane/helicopter/vehicle/soldier, seriously. the only difference that soldier on foot.

so your argument is still invalid. you just try to excuse the point that you don't want people with spare monitor to use it because you don't have one by any means, even using word "realism", while it most certainly go against current day tech, irl refferences and common sense.

still want to tell me that opening paper road map instead of looking on gps is realistic?

to summ up all your words and statements: "i don't have *it*, so don't let anyone else who got *it* use *it*"

sounds quite ignorant, doesn't it?

*it* may be described as:

joysticks

track ir

additional screens

other peripherals

paste any you like.

remove it all and you will get your favourite game: counter stike!!

this is just hilarious, seriously

Edited August 7, 2012 by n7snk

[avfc 10]

I'll use the word realism whenever i want and in my original post i was correct, a foot soldier checks a map in real life that is a fact. Yes gps exists and other tech is being tested etc but to this day soldiers check maps i dont know again if i could say that any clearer. I think ill go and argue with a brick wall i might get some sense out of it.

My argument is valid i dont give a crap how many times you use the word invalid or bring other laughable comparisons.

[LeeManatee 4]

I'll use the word realism whenever i want

even when it's against logic and common sense? i see.

Yes gps exists and other tech is being tested etc but to this day soldiers check maps

just to let you know: 2035 =/= 2012

okay, let me ask you something, with all current advance in tech and especially in PDA ( huge success of iphone, ipad and so on ), using systems like land warrior in actual warfare even as testing, would not you find it reasonable to assume that portable devices which are commonly used nowdays will be used even wider and become same common things for military like washing machines for civilians?

even tho there are lots of experts keep saying that future is all for portable devices.

i'm not talking about some holo-tech and other sci-fy stuff for example gauss tank, but rather real things that you can see everyday all around in your life.

My argument is valid i dont give a crap how many times you use the word invalid or bring other laughable comparisons.

very ignorant aswell.

if nowdays real life comparisons make you laught and you think thats "ITS ALL MAGIC!" and you live somewhere in 15th century, then you should probably start some witch hunting and set on fire people who use computers, gps and portable devices. just a suggestion.

[avfc 10]

I dont care when the game is set, youre going further off point with every post. There will be maps in this game yes? Now if one guy has to open his map then everyone else should have too aswell rather than having a whole new screen for it. I dont know why this is so hard for you to comprehend. As amusing as your posts have been ill have to end it here because your stupidity is starting to annoy me.

[[frl]myke 14]

n7snk & AVFC

you both better cool down and watch your language or i have to hand out infractions. I suggest you both take a break, wait a few hours and then you may continue your discussion in a civilized manner. You may also continue straight away if you manage to control your temper. Else i have to ban you from this thread.

[liquidpinky 11]

I dont care when the game is set, youre going further off point with every post. There will be maps in this game yes? Now if one guy has to open his map then everyone else should have too aswell rather than having a whole new screen for it. I dont know why this is so hard for you to comprehend. As amusing as your posts have been ill have to end it here because your stupidity is starting to annoy me.

So because you keep knocking up your wife/girfriend, drive a fast or inefficient car, see PC's further down you list of hobbies, people like myself who do spend lots of money and like to have the nice tech should suffer?

I would be happy if they did balance it, but not because you deem me a PC snob just because I have more than one monitor.

Just for the record, having a full sized GPS screen up on one of your monitors is actually a disadvatage over having it free to spot the enemy.

[LeeManatee 4]

I dont care when the game is set,

i guess this is the problem

youre going further off point with every post.

nope, i provide facts and references that using additional screen atleast for combat map is realistic and authentic for 2035 warfare.

There will be maps in this game yes?

obviously.

Now if one guy has to open his map then everyone else should have too aswell

we are going in circles. read this one:

Not having to open the map while other players do have to is advantage plain and simple.

then please, don't bring the word "realism" to excuse your true intentions. i heard exacly same crap when people started to whine about suggestion to add track ir support on some other forum about some space game "OMG! I DUN HAFF IT! THEY GOT ADVTNEGA! NO! NO! DON'T ADD IT!" why the same crap here?

there are a plot and irl references for using such systems nowdays. please, when next time you bring word "realism" to justify something, make sure that it's actually realistic and not how you wish it to be.

to summ up all your words and statements: "i don't have *it*, so don't let anyone else who got *it* use *it*"

sounds quite ignorant, doesn't it?

*it* may be described as:

joysticks

track ir

additional screens

other peripherals

paste any you like.

remove it all and you will get your favourite game: counter stike!!

I dont know why this is so hard for you to comprehend.

i already understood your intentions

to summ up all your words and statements: "i don't have *it*, so don't let anyone else who got *it* use *it*"

As amusing as your posts have been ill have to end it here because your stupidity is starting to annoy me.

don't worry i would not miss it.

just tell me please, what are you doing here and how you manage to play arma instead of your favourite counter strike, when arma allow people to use joysticks, track ir and so on?

Edited August 7, 2012 by n7snk

[Cwivey 1]

Forgive my interuption, my vision is augmented.

It's realy GRAW, I quite like that. But it shouldn't just be limited to folk with two or more screens. Give everyone the chance to use it.

Again on the map front. I can't see someone with a two handed weapon walking around with the Map out (Excluding the above System), that's the key issue. A guy with one screen has to stop moving, go down on one knee and open the map to view it. <--- This is what people don't like.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Imo there are some other important things to think of:

• 
  
• How big are the real displays of those handheld/portable devices?
  
• How fast soldiers can use such a device and should it be available ingame in any situation?
  
• Can such portable devices be jammed and/or detected+tracked - as ingame available too?
  
• What about wear and tear aswell as damage/malfunction possibilities - as ingame feature too?
  
• Should the player have a similar screen size ratio of the real device/MFD or should he have the advantage of the bigger screen (incl. zoom) ratio on his 2nd/3rd/... monitor??
  
• What effect should it have on a player ingame like additional lighting/blinding/disturbing/irritation etc?
  

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Oh the irony in n7snk's post #1330.

[doveman 7]

Imo there are some other important things to think of:

• 
  
• How big are the real displays of those handheld/portable devices?
  
• How fast soldiers can use such a device and should it be available ingame in any situation?
  
• Can such portable devices be jammed and/or detected+tracked - as ingame available too?
  
• What about wear and tear aswell as damage/malfunction possibilities - as ingame feature too?
  
• Should the player have a similar screen size ratio of the real device/MFD or should he have the advantage of the bigger screen (incl. zoom) ratio on his 2nd/3rd/... monitor??
  
• What effect should it have on a player ingame like additional lighting/blinding/disturbing/irritation etc?
  

Perhaps if we're talking about simulating these handheld displays they should be overlayed on the main monitor, similar to how the GPS currently is but taking up more of the screen. That would be more like how they would be used IRL (i.e. not totally obscuring the players ability to quickly check their surroundings) and then there'd be no question of dual-screen users having an advantage. IRL of course the soldier can hold the display nearer to their face and perhaps that can be simulated by the player being able to enlarge the overlay to take up more of the display.

[LeeManatee 4]

Imo there are some other important things to think of:

• 
  
• How big are the real displays of those handheld/portable devices?
  ---
  if we are talking about systems similar to land warrior then it appear to your eye like 14" or 17" 4x3 screen
  ------------------------------
  
• How fast soldiers can use such a device and should it be available ingame in any situation?
  ---
  from videos i was able to find it says instantly right after you get it on your eye. then its your time to figure out the situatuion. for soldiers trained with this system it require aprox 3 seconds to find out situation and direction of contact.
  ------------------------------
  
• Can such portable devices be jammed and/or detected+tracked - as ingame available too?
  ---
  it may introduce more interesting assets and tools = more variety
  ------------------------------
  
• What about wear and tear aswell as damage/malfunction possibilities - as ingame feature too?
  ---
  will be neat if such things will be simulated. if we talk about land warrior and alike systems main element ( computer ) is on back. there is only display on helmet.
  so lets say if you got shot in back it may be broken.
  ------------------------------
  
• Should the player have a similar screen size ratio of the real device/MFD or should he have the advantage of the bigger screen (incl. zoom) ratio on his 2nd/3rd/... monitor??
  it says it appear like 14" or 17" 4x3 screen. i belive additional monitor that used as this tool should show only map. no other tools, unless you are in the vehicle.
  ------------------------------
  
• What effect should it have on a player ingame like additional lighting/blinding/disturbing/irritation etc?
  i don't know but...
  

so far the only idea i got about how system like land warrior may be implemented for players without and with 2nd screen is:

it's supposed to be used like tool for orientation, marking positions, and communication. not a all-see-eye obviously. just.. more advanced version of gps.

since according to recent video sources it doesnt use any weapon cameras and so on.

person with one screen

while "MAP" button is holded he operate with it in half of screen just like traditional map. he still can move around i guess.

for example for opfor future warrior display located on their left arm, so when you hold "MAP" key it gets bigger and on down left side of your screen, for blufor that use land warrior alike system it appear in top right corner.

person with 2 screens

hold "MAP" button he operate on another screen just like person without 2nd screen. the only difference is:

when he press "MAP" button his main screen stays the same but cursor move to map screen entirely and work like traditional map.

advantage of person with 2nd screen is extremely slim, so i may even say that he don't have any advantage over person with one screen only.

but, even if there would not be such option for people with one screen, and even if map screen will be avaible only for people with 2 screens it would not make much difference/give advantage to person with 2 screens.

The main issue with the folks who are against utilising a secondary monitor to display the map seems to be one that points out an advantage that a player with 2 monitors would have over a player with only 1.

The only advantage I see, is the constant view of the "Empty" map, which could easily be done by printing a high res version out and posting it on a wall where it can readily be seen. Just like they do in DayZ

From my own experience of playing the game, the only realtime map info I get is mission scripted markers which track friendly groups.

I only play coop so this is not an advantage in any way. It would help any mission commander to achieve a higher situational awareness, that is not a bad thing, that is a good thing and may improve the quality of the leadershipl.

I am assuming then, that this negativity is from PvP players only.

What information that is viewed on the map, that is not controlled by difficulty settings do you think will give players with a constant map view an advantage ?

With the correct difficulty settings, its just a map, there is no real time data shown on it at all

^ absolutely agree with this statement

Oh the irony in n7snk's post #1330.

i don't see any irony here, or you belive that there will be no trims in aircraft vehicles, soldiers will suddenly become rambos and shoot people dual weild? i belive that arma should not end up as run and gun game.

additional features like using 2nd screen isn't something unrealistic.

Edited August 7, 2012 by n7snk

[terox 316]

The main issue with the folks who are against utilising a secondary monitor to display the map seems to be one that points out an advantage that a player with 2 monitors would have over a player with only 1.

The only advantage I see, is the constant view of the "Empty" map, which could easily be done by printing a high res version out and posting it on a wall where it can readily be seen. Just like they do in DayZ

From my own experience of playing the game, the only realtime map info I get is mission scripted markers which track friendly groups.

I only play coop so this is not an advantage in any way. It would help any mission commander to achieve a higher situational awareness, that is not a bad thing, that is a good thing and may improve the quality of the leadershipl.

I am assuming then, that this negativity is from PvP players only.

What information that is viewed on the map, that is not controlled by difficulty settings do you think will give players with a constant map view an advantage ?

With the correct difficulty settings, its just a map, there is no real time data shown on it at all, so I am completely lost as to why anyone would see this as an advantage

Edited August 7, 2012 by Terox

[NoRailgunner 0]

Issue is that your ingame character must do something ingame which one with a second monitor possibly doesn't have to do it (or worst case, just once - at mission start). Its more like outsourcing ingame features and functionality only to be fully available - anytime + anywhere.

[LeeManatee 4]

Issue is that your ingame character must do something ingame which one with a second monitor possibly doesn't have to do it (or worst case, just once - at mission start). Its more like outsourcing ingame features and functionality only to be fully available - anytime + anywhere.

this is such a minor detail that can be ignored right away. this is just making something more complicated for people with 2nd monitor.

with same logic you may say that in order to rotate my head with track ir i must press something first. it doesn't make sense.

i got track ir because i don't want to press anything ingame to change my view.

i got 2nd monitor to be able to see map all the time without need to push a button to do so.

and once again, map on 2nd screen is not a game breaker or something that give any advantage to person with 2nd screen.

it's just more comfortable to use it.

same goes for track ir: it's more comfortable to rotate hea instead of push the button and use mouse or using numpad but it doesn't give you any advantage. it makes experience better. nothing more.

same goes for joysticks: it's more comfortable to fly with joystick and more authentic, but it doesn't give you any advantage, if you can't fly no matter what joystick you got you will still suck. but its rather fun to fly with controlls similar to real helicopter controlls rather then on keyboard and mouse, even thoit may be more precise to use mouse.

so i can't agree with your point

[NoRailgunner 0]

n7snk yes, it is very easy + comfortable to press only a few keys/buttons and of course using extra hardware has certain advantages. Question here is more about which things are reasonable + nice to have on a second monitor and which things are just unrealistic from in-game characters POV. :)

[LeeManatee 4]

n7snk yes, it is very easy + comfortable to press only a few keys/buttons and of course using extra hardware has certain advantages. Question here is more about which things are reasonable + nice to have on a second monitor and which things are just unrealistic from in-game characters POV. :)

err... simple

-------------------------------------

sure list: these features have irl plot nowdays and it's not game breaker

type of unit and avaible features for 2nd screen

infantry

map-gps-compas.

vehicles/helicopters/aircradts

map-gps-compas

thermal

cockpit tools

guided rockets camera

-------------------------------------

arguable list: features that still have plot nowdays but quite tricky itself.

type of unit and avaible features for 2nd screen

infantry

mounted cameras, ability to see each soldier camera for squad leader

acess to UAV camera interface

vehicles/helicopters/aircradts

mounted cameras, ability to access each camera for platoon commander

acess to UAV interface

commander MHQ

access to UAV controll

acess to squad leaders/platoon leaders and possibly soldiers cameras

-------------------------------------

this sounds quite beliveable & realistic and not game breaking

[gammadust 12]

Someone already mentioned that when IRL you read a map, your peripheral view keeps giving cues of your environment...

But I would develop this further, there is a sense of presence and situational awareness which arma (most simulations for that matter) cannot yet convey, having he possibility to use a map on a 2nd monitor could compensate for this handicap to an extent (despite the slight realism loss in the process, only as a trade off for another realistic gain).

"Realism" should always be taken with a pinch of salt, even in a simulation. Tentative realistic approaches and priorities between is what defines gameplay, it is a compromise by definition.

The whole issue boils down to competitive advantage between players' hardware. Before i defended it is "unrealistic" for ones limitations to impose on others, i'll rephrase it to "shortsighted" this time around. And keep in mind in the end it is the mission creator/server host which decides what kind of balance he's after > which players is he catering to, to keep this decision early in the chain is, again, shortsighted.

Edited August 7, 2012 by gammadust

[dmarkwick 261]

"Realism" should always be taken with a pinch of salt, even in a simulation. Tentative realistic approaches and priorities between is what defines gameplay, it is a compromise by definition.

Indeed, "realism" is an oft-abused term here. Some people seem to equate it as a 1:1 exact representation of what they see directly. I would say that rather than "realism" the engine should strive for "appropriate analog", which ought to take in considerations like the PC/user interface and it's limitations. Is it "realistic" to have a damage indicator showing you what part of you is damaged, or is it realistic to have to free-view all over your body looking for bloodied textures? I can feel where I hurt IRL, ingame I need an appropriate analog, cue the ingame damage indicator. That is more "realistic" than none IMO, it's an appropriate analog.

[NoRailgunner 0]

If one can look at the open map/camera/mirror/MFD view on his 2nd monitor anytime, in any situation and perhaps at most comfy zoom level - sure that is realistic, authentic and "appropriate analog".... :rolleyes:

[dmarkwick 261]

If one can look at the open map/camera/mirror/MFD view on his 2nd monitor anytime, in any situation and perhaps at most comfy zoom level - sure that is realistic, authentic and "appropriate analog".... :rolleyes:

That isn't the gist of my post :) in this case, an appropriate analog already exists in the form of the ingame map. I have to stop & kneel to look at it, and while I'm looking at it my attention is focused on it, but I can easily & quickly dismiss it if I hear something happening :) another approach might be to have it as a selectable equipment and you look at a render to texture view of a map in you hands, but how to scroll & zoom etc? I think the appropriate analog is already there :)

[liquidpinky 11]

What those with only one monitor fail to realise, I mentioned it earlier, is that it can be a disadvantage that distracts your attention from the job in hand. eg driving while on the mobile phone.

Depending on server setting you can be looking at a basic map with no player or enemy reference and that you have to still use proper orienteering techniques to keep track of where you are, all this distracts you from seeing a possible threat.

The monitor being covered by a map is also removing half/third of your vision and again meaning you can fail to percieve a threat.

I have Take On set up to have the GPS take up a whole monitor but still switch it on and off as the loss of peripheral vision is not worth it.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Liquidpinky
Because my spelling is atrocious.

[doveman 7]

That isn't the gist of my post :) in this case, an appropriate analog already exists in the form of the ingame map. I have to stop & kneel to look at it, and while I'm looking at it my attention is focused on it, but I can easily & quickly dismiss it if I hear something happening :) another approach might be to have it as a selectable equipment and you look at a render to texture view of a map in you hands, but how to scroll & zoom etc? I think the appropriate analog is already there :)

I don't agree that it's quite an appropriate analog as it takes too long to close and completely obscures the player's view of the surroundings whilst it's open. If it opened on a second monitor (not permanently displayed and auto-closed when moving) that would probably be more of an analog as then, like IRL, you could quickly look from the map back to your surroundings. It seems unlikely that if a soldier is looking at their map and hears what might be an immediate threat, that they'll carefully fold up and put away their map before looking around, which is what the current situation is like.

Another way to simulate this for single-screen users might be to have the map open as an overlay in something like the bottom right 1/4 of the screen and when holding RMB it zooms to cover the whole screen. This would need to be an instant zoom/unzoom though to simulate the speed with which a soldier IRL can look up from the map if disturbed, no pressing M and waiting 2 seconds ;)

[dmarkwick 261]

I don't agree that it's quite an appropriate analog as it takes too long to close and completely obscures the player's view of the surroundings whilst it's open. If it opened on a second monitor (not permanently displayed and auto-closed when moving) that would probably be more of an analog as then, like IRL, you could quickly look from the map back to your surroundings. It seems unlikely that if a soldier is looking at their map and hears what might be an immediate threat, that they'll carefully fold up and put away their map before looking around, which is what the current situation is like.

Well, I should say that the notion that the soldier is carefully folding it up & putting it away is your own notion :) more like stuffing it into his jacket. At least the current method encourages the player to find a safe spot first. And the delay is most probably simply a game engine delay as it loads up the map info for display, and vice-versa when put away. In any case, it'd be not much different than the second-monitor map you suggested, just that you'd have your 3D view also right? I should say that the pros/cons are so small that the current method simply already works fine. But, that's just a IMHO :)

[NoRailgunner 0]

Those people with a second monitor do have simply the advantage that their first monitor isn't for example filled with the map = they overall do have a much better situational awareness and response time! Imo it would be tenfold better to have proper (action) animations + views for such objects ingame incl. something like a "quick throw/toss" feature. ;)